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Tolerance to offenses
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Sumit
Sanatana Dharma
Vedas do not Pictrures Shiva as a person sitting in Mountains but If we see it from Puranic View than Shiva is one who is pleased easily and fulfills the desires of his devotees. Shiva also gets angry even at a small fault. Shiva according to Puranas holds Tamo Guna.
Shiva is easily angered and easily forgiving.
Krishna isn't known for getting angry easily or frequently. He is much more playful. Some of the best examples of him getting angry is when someone harms one of his associates. His brother is then known for being very calm and forgiving.
Both Krishna and Shiva are wonderful to me.
Krishna isn't known for getting angry easily or frequently. He is much more playful. Some of the best examples of him getting angry is when someone harms one of his associates. His brother is then known for being very calm and forgiving.
Both Krishna and Shiva are wonderful to me.
Wannabe Yogi
Well-Known Member
Krishna who is Vishnu is much more picky about his worship, many more rules. Shiva is a lot less so. Yes, he gets angry but not with his devotees. This is how my tradition looks at it. Just look at all the rules in a Vaishnava temple. They are well known for this.
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I'm not sure that Krishna imposes all those rules. He does after all tell us that we can simply offer him a leaf, a flower, fruit or water with love and devotion. I think people have created a lot of extra rules over time in regards to his worship.
Absolute and whole-hearted agreement. Some of the "rules" written by gurus and other writers are some of the silliest I have ever seen, and make the God of the Old Testament seem downright cuddly. For God to forgive 100 personal insults before losing His temper does not sound intolerant to me. Shishupala - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Wannabe Yogi
Well-Known Member
I can tell you Lingam worship is the most simple if you want it to be. Just pore water on the Lingam and say your mantra. In many Shiva temples in India you can bring you stuff right into the temple and do the puja your self no problem. Could any body worship at the alter in a Krishna temple ? Even in the Purana's Shiva is much more likely to be pleased a give Boons. In one Purana Siva even gives blessings for urinating on a lingam. In north India Shiva followers are outsiders, his friends live in cremation grounds less rules. Vishnu's folks are consummate insiders. This is how many see this but maybe not all.
At least in the Puranic story of Shiva's and Parvati's marriage I see a great sense of humor in Shiva, and great forgiveness. Shiv Puran Story
At the temple in this area, a small stone altar is set up with a small lingam, murthi of Nandi, and a serpent. A small kalash is provided for filling with water (only water) to pour over the murthis. However, no one dare enter any of the main sanctums of any of the deities. Even at the Sri Shiva Sanctum, which contains an enormous lingam, no one except the priests can even approach the steps because they are between Nandi and Shiva. Even flowers or fruits have to be given to the priests.
Actually, for me, it isn't Hinduism if the Gods get angry. The whole idea goes against the very idea of Hinduism. Our Gods are all benevolent, no matter what ishta is worshiped. Any 'fighting' is metaphorical, fighting with one's own instincts, or asuric tendencies. The idea of anger in it at all must come from certain outside influences, or some strange look at our faith from a subconscious that includes God getting angry.
Maya3
Well-Known Member
Me Myself
Back to my username
I think I remember aving read somewhere that Shiva blessed some people who were threatening him with spears, because the e peak of e spears there were bael leaves and he decided to take it as worship. I liked that.
In my mind, Shiva just wants your progress, even if he gets "angry" at you it is onlly to teach you something, so it wont really hurt you but teach you. Then again I would feel similarly towards Krishna who is after all a prankster ( and doesnt need a reason to have a little fun with you does he?
)
I mostly believe in worship asking for wisdom to better understand all that comes, because alll at comes comes from Shiva/Krishna, Hari Hara
In my mind, Shiva just wants your progress, even if he gets "angry" at you it is onlly to teach you something, so it wont really hurt you but teach you. Then again I would feel similarly towards Krishna who is after all a prankster ( and doesnt need a reason to have a little fun with you does he?
)I mostly believe in worship asking for wisdom to better understand all that comes, because alll at comes comes from Shiva/Krishna, Hari Hara
Gaura Priya
IRL
I agree with Madhuri totally that any anger displayed by God is simply lila, and another form of illustration of teaching us spiritual principles.
I do agree that devotees of Krishna-Vishnu (Vaishnavites) tend to be a lot stricter than the rest of the Hindu world. I suppose that the idea is to try to create a sense of humility and pure lifestyle, although I suppose that idea gets muddled in translation from the pandit or guru to the congregation.
Even when I think of the tradition I currently adhere to, Sri Chaitanya only wrote eight verses (called the Shikshashtakam), and yet although He only asked people to love Krishna and worship Him, to become a Vaishnava through simply chanting Krishna's Names, there is much orthodoxy, rules and regulations that came about a hundred years after. I suppose that this was a way to legitimise the sect as a form of Vaishnava sampradaya, but again, it seems that perhaps Sri Chaitanya's original intent may have disappeared via the orthodox.
If you know of the other stalwarts that came out of the bhakti movement, such as Kabir, Tulsidas, Guru Nanak, etc. there seems to be a pattern of rigidity adding on after, at least in the saints of Sri Chaitanya and Guru Nanak.
All that I know, is that essentially being a Vaishnava ultimately means loving Krishna or Vishnu to all of your heart's content, and nothing else. Sometimes I wish there was a liberal Vaishnava community out there, but there isn't one! Perhaps I may be strict on myself, but I would rather that others come to Krishna according to their own way and understanding!
I do agree that devotees of Krishna-Vishnu (Vaishnavites) tend to be a lot stricter than the rest of the Hindu world. I suppose that the idea is to try to create a sense of humility and pure lifestyle, although I suppose that idea gets muddled in translation from the pandit or guru to the congregation.
Even when I think of the tradition I currently adhere to, Sri Chaitanya only wrote eight verses (called the Shikshashtakam), and yet although He only asked people to love Krishna and worship Him, to become a Vaishnava through simply chanting Krishna's Names, there is much orthodoxy, rules and regulations that came about a hundred years after. I suppose that this was a way to legitimise the sect as a form of Vaishnava sampradaya, but again, it seems that perhaps Sri Chaitanya's original intent may have disappeared via the orthodox.
If you know of the other stalwarts that came out of the bhakti movement, such as Kabir, Tulsidas, Guru Nanak, etc. there seems to be a pattern of rigidity adding on after, at least in the saints of Sri Chaitanya and Guru Nanak.
All that I know, is that essentially being a Vaishnava ultimately means loving Krishna or Vishnu to all of your heart's content, and nothing else. Sometimes I wish there was a liberal Vaishnava community out there, but there isn't one! Perhaps I may be strict on myself, but I would rather that others come to Krishna according to their own way and understanding!
Viraja
Jaya Jagannatha!
When I was little, my family used to joke about Shaivites' strict regimen - I am a South Indian Vaishnavite, I am talking about other South Indian Shaivite Brahmins (called 'Iyers'). My grandmother used to especially say it is very hard to be a Shaivite because something called 'madi' ( it involves terming most things as 'untouchable or polluted things' after 1 use) is involved that makes one always doing cleaning, vacuuming, brooming and washing chores . Now I know Shaivites might feel the same about Vaishnavites too, some of it is involved in Vaishnavism also . But I doubt if the gods require it. Afterall, we all know the story, when a devout Brahmin and a cobbler both were dead and reached the heaven. The cobbler was given 'moksha' whereas the devout Brahmin was not, when he questioned why, the Lord is said to have told him, "Being a Brahmin and chanting his name all day isn't that difficult as being a cobbler but not forgetting to chant the lord's name without fail atleast once everday!". So be it Shiva or Krishna, they all come to eventually respect one's karmas and sincerity of devotion as opposed to anything external.
. Now I know Shaivites might feel the same about Vaishnavites too, some of it is involved in Vaishnavism also . But I doubt if the gods require it. Afterall, we all know the story, when a devout Brahmin and a cobbler both were dead and reached the heaven. The cobbler was given 'moksha' whereas the devout Brahmin was not, when he questioned why, the Lord is said to have told him, "Being a Brahmin and chanting his name all day isn't that difficult as being a cobbler but not forgetting to chant the lord's name without fail atleast once everday!". So be it Shiva or Krishna, they all come to eventually respect one's karmas and sincerity of devotion as opposed to anything external.
Wannabe Yogi
Well-Known Member
I have personally done my own Siva puja at Jyotirlingam at Kashi Vishwanath Temple (Seen by many as the most sacred Siva temple) and many other Siva temples in India. It is very common to do your puja at a Shiva Temple at off hours.
At the famous Dakshineswar Kali Temple they purposely set it up so you can do your own puja at one of many 12 Siva lingams there. The priests only do puja at 2 of the 12. Of coarse the Kali and Govinda Temples you must go through a Priest.
Who is the main Deity at your temple. Is it a Siva Temple the main temple they would follow the rules and tradtions of the main temple. I am sure there are many different rules in different sects. But I have never heard of a Mother or Vishnu temple that allows your own do it your self puja.
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The presiding deity is Sri Guruvayurappan, Vishnu from Guruvayur in south India. The temple is like a shopping mall, with the devotees visiting sanctums and pujas like trick-or-treaters. It's that big, with so many deities.
You guys are talking about the difference in style between a North Indian style temple (Wannabe Yogi) and a South Indian style temple. (Jainarayan) Both of you are correct. It is another sense of 'speaking from personal experience only'. In almost all North Indian style temples there is a place where yopu can do your own Siva Abhishekaham. In the moolasthanams of South India, they will definitely kick you out. In the west, for the South Indian style ones like at Jainarayan's, there are often big signs like 'Only priest allowed", and the North Indians are shocked that they aren't allowed.