Too many religions

[InvestigateTruth]

Nope, every age and group has had the same problems..

Not really, bcause we are living in a new Age. Everything is new, science technolgy, Economy,...etc.

For example Jesus didn't explicitly forbid Slavery, but Baha'u'llah did. So, the Laws that Jesus brought is not complete to be used for our Age.

"It is forbidden you to trade in slaves, be they men or women. It is not for him who is himself a servant to buy another of God’s servants, and this hath been prohibited in His Holy Tablet. Thus, by His mercy, hath the commandment been recorded by the Pen of justice. Let no man exalt himself above another; all are but bondslaves before the Lord, and all exemplify the truth that there is none other God but Him. He, verily, is the All-Wise, Whose wisdom encompasseth all things. " The Most Holy Book

The Laws of the Most Holy Book has come for this Age. Laws of Bible are for the old Age.

If the religion was around from the begining then it should have given consistent information. It should not have told the Christians that Jesus is the way the truth and the life and that no one proceeds to the father without him.

Jesus spoke as the Messenger of His time. For that Age, Jesus was the way, for the new Age, I believe Baha'u'llah has the most recent teachings from God and we should follow Him if we want to find the way to the Father.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Narrowness does not equal not true. In fact most natural laws have very narrow parameters. Jesus also said he was the narrow gate, and God has always been followed by a remnant not the bulk but that is our fault not his. It all started at the tower of Babel. You are substituting what you want to be true for what is true.

It seems to me that, there are certain people who like the easiest way to be saved and go to Heaven.
Now, what most mainstream Christians believe, is that, if they believe Jesus was God and He did many Miracles, and if they have faith in Him, that takes them to Heaven.
Well, this idea is only good for people who don't want to make any effort, and they want to imagine and be hopeful to go to heaven in the easiest way.

Ok, even if 95% of Christians agree, as you said yourself, the gate is narrow. So, that means most Christians are not going to Heaven, and the if they agree on 95%, it means, they are believing in a misinterpretation of Bible. But to be honest with you, I hope they all be saved and go to Heaven.

 

[Astravalon]

You're believing God literally "speaks" to people and imparts knowledge upon them. For myself, that is not the case: no lies. No words. Nothing is spoken. It is experienced.

I have found this to be the case for me as well, especially in the area of synchronicities or meaningful "coincidences", and opportunities presenting themselves when things seemed to bleakest. Blows my mind many times. :bow:

There are different ways of looking at it. For example, seeing Jesus and Kṛṣṇa as one and the same (Kṛṣṇa says things similar).

I agree... the similarities between what I have read in the Bhagavad Gita and what I have read in the Christian bible are quite striking.

I would not want to worship a God who would send people to hell for thinking differently. And a large chunk of others would not either. Many Christians too.

The idea that an all-powerful, all-knowing deity would feel the need to toss His creation in the eternal incinerator for being what He Himself made them makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever. :no:

 

[Breathe]

The idea that an all-powerful, all-knowing deity would feel the need to toss His creation in the eternal incinerator for being what He Himself made them makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever. :no:

Exactly right. I can't get my head around it.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

There are different ways of looking at it. For example, seeing Jesus and Kṛṣṇa as one and the same (Kṛṣṇa says things similar).

Yes, I believe this also.

 

[1robin]

Not really, bcause we are living in a new Age. Everything is new, science technolgy, Economy,...etc.

We are discussing moral problems not how to build a better mouse trap. They were sinful we are sinful, they died we died, they were seperated from God we are seperated from God, Justice means the same as it does today, they needed answers to origin, purpose, meaning, destination as we do. That is why the bibles says there is nothing new under the sun. We do the exact the same things but have different technologies. Whether we use secular law or religous law the problems and issues are the same. The fact we use planes instead of donkeys doesn't make an unjust action just or vice versa.

For example Jesus didn't explicitly forbid Slavery, but Baha'u'llah did. So, the Laws that Jesus brought is not complete to be used for our Age.

Slavery is just as wrong or right 4000 years ago as it is today. In fact what was used to fight slavery in modern times was the bible's claims not Bahai's, about the equality of man and the sanctity of life.

"It is forbidden you to trade in slaves, be they men or women. It is not for him who is himself a servant to buy another of God’s servants, and this hath been prohibited in His Holy Tablet. Thus, by His mercy, hath the commandment been recorded by the Pen of justice. Let no man exalt himself above another; all are but bondslaves before the Lord, and all exemplify the truth that there is none other God but Him. He, verily, is the All-Wise, Whose wisdom encompasseth all things. " The Most Holy Book

These kinds of claims are fine and the bible makes them to. The difference is that the bible being a complete and divine revelation it also explains why and provides the moral framework by which to show slavery as wrong. Simply claiming acts of injustice as unjust is not miraculous without providing a solid justification for it's abolishment and the moral framework that explains and founds the reasons for the practice and the grounds for it's resistance. I have just debated the biblical slavery issue. What God said about slavery is that it is not desirable and it is unjustifiable however it existed in every culture at the time and it was not practical to require everyone to give up their slaves. What he did allow for was the use of forced labor instead of the common practice of execution of defeated enemies. Almost all slavery that the bible records as existing was voluntary to pay debts etc. It as well as debt requirements were very much softened compared to non-biblical cultures. In fact it is the bible's policy of slaves gaining their freedom and that debt should be forgiven after seven years that stopped slavery and debtor's prison in the united states not anything in Bahai'.

The Laws of the Most Holy Book has come for this Age. Laws of Bible are for the old Age.

No they are not, you were just told this because it justifies the claims of Baha'i. The bible covers the time period beginning with creation and ending with the destruction of Earths surface and the establishment of Heaven on earth. A to Z, or alpha to omega. It needs no help and has no gaps. It really gets old having someone tell me that in effect that when the bible says up it actually means down, or when it says left it meant right. You are being misled as to the bible's interpretation as is the hallmark of every unGodly influence in history.

Jesus spoke as the Messenger of His time. For that Age, Jesus was the way, for the new Age, I believe Baha'u'llah has the most recent teachings from God and we should follow Him if we want to find the way to the Father.

This is incorrect, Jesus said he is the only way to the father and that no one would enter the kingdom of God outside of faith in his death and ressurection. He did not say until Baha'u'llah arrives. In fact it does not even mention him. He said that by no other name or teaching will heaven be gained. He did not say until someone else comes. He said if you try to get there through another way ("Baha'i) you are thief and a robber and would pay the price for it. He did not say at some future date you could sneek in some other way. He also said to avoid the wide path to destruction. Religious pluralism is a prime example of the wide path. We must enter the narrow door way of Christ. Even if, and it is certainly not the case, that Jesus only spoke about his times it would not matter because the Holy Spirit or paracleate was sent to lead born again Christians into all truth. Not some truth for certain ages, all truth for all ages.

 

[1robin]

It seems to me that, there are certain people who like the easiest way to be saved and go to Heaven.

Easy, anything that requires God to die in agony on a cross is not easy. Anything that requires we must understand we are ungodly sinners is not easy. Anything that at many times throught history has resulted in our deaths is not easy. Any system that encorporates the highest level of moral law in human history is not easy. Jesus said not only to not murder as the world does, he said to look on your brother with anger without cause is as if you murdered him. He also said to even look at a women with lust makes you guilty of adultery. That is not easy to swallow.

Now, what most mainstream Christians believe, is that, if they believe Jesus was God and He did many Miracles, and if they have faith in Him, that takes them to Heaven.

It is not that simple. We must also believe and I mean really believe we have angered God and are as guilty of crucifying Christ as the Romans or Jews. We also have to adopt a system that makes stricter moral demands than any other.

Well, this idea is only good for people who don't want to make any effort, and they want to imagine and be hopeful to go to heaven in the easiest way.

No it isn't. It doesn't do any good unless it's true. That is one reason among the many and why it is believed by 1 out of 3 people. When God says that he ruthlessly prunes those whom he loves that is not an easy way. No other system outside of pure grace is possible. Works salvation doesn't, can't, and will never work. It is impossible to be good enough to live with a perfect being who demands perfection.

Ok, even if 95% of Christians agree, as you said yourself, the gate is narrow. So, that means most Christians are not going to Heaven, and the if they agree on 95%, it means, they are believing in a misinterpretation of Bible. But to be honest with you, I hope they all be saved and go to Heaven.

Sometimes I wonder if you don't understand things on purpose. 95% of Christians believe that Christ is the narrow gate and have entered the kingdom of God on that belief. Whether the COC is right about music in church or the methodists has nothing to do with heaven and hell. It does not matter if you believe in transubstination or not. We are not saved by transubstination. That 5% dissagreement is not about salvation issues. Regardless if two reporters go to a game and report the same score but dissagree about an interference call does not mean that there was no ball game which is what you are saying. Christ's message would be true even if no one at all belived in it. The bible says that God will be found true even if every man a liar.

 

[1robin]

Exactly right. I can't get my head around it.

He didn't make us that way. He loved us so much that he made us with freewill and the ability to love him or reject him. Would you rather be an automaton? Unfortunately we rejected him and chose to live apart from him. He even provided the way to reconciliation himself and endured agony and death to make it possible. All you have to do is believe. If you refuse even that then it isn't his fault and he can't be blamed. It is like someone offering you a lottery ticket and you refuse and then blame your poverty on them. He gives us exactly what we choose, eternal seperation from him or eternal life with him. Every sin we commit every day is a witness to this.

 

[JustWondering]

However in every meaningfull category by which a religion is judged Christianity is the most favorable. In other words it is the number one contender by any standard.

That is YOUR OPINION.

So logic dictates that it should be the first to be considered.

Logic? God sends himself as a man to earth to sacrifice himself to himself to give himself permission to forgive mankind for being human and not perfect. I fail to see any logic in your supernatural belief system.

It may be rejected but not on the basis of a lack of evidence..

What evidence?

Your different sects point does not mean what you are claiming. There is supposed to be diversity in the body of Christ, the only absolute doctrine that must unite us is the born again experience by which we become Christians.

For one to be a christian, christ must be a part of the equation somewhere, you are correct. However, I don't remember diversity being mentioned in the bible anywhere. If the bible delivers such a consistent message (as you have claimed) why are there hundreds of different sects with wildly different ideas?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

We are discussing moral problems not how to build a better mouse trap.

Well, I mean, not just the moral problems, but other things such as how to achive World Unity and peace in this Age. Jesus, predicted that He came not to bring peace, but sword.
Baha'i Faith brought certain new knowledge by which humanity gradually will achive the goal of unity and peace.
Jesus was capable of bringing the same teaching too, but people were no ready yet in that Age.

Slavery is just as wrong or right 4000 years ago as it is today. In fact what was used to fight slavery in modern times was the bible's claims not Bahai's, about the equality of man and the sanctity of life.

why the Bible did not say it is forbidden to have slaves?

This is incorrect, Jesus said he is the only way to the father and that no one would enter the kingdom of God outside of faith in his death and ressurection. He did not say until Baha'u'llah arrives.

But He did say, He still have many things to tell, and He leaves untill another one will come. He also talked about His own return. I believe Baha'u'llah fulfills the prophecies regarding the return of Christ.

Moreover, the Laws of Christianity were to be observed till the coming of the Lord.

"For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes." 1 Corin. 11:26

In fact it does not even mention him.

Yes, the bible talks about the Lord of Host. I believe that is Baha'u'llah.
Also Bible talks about Glory of God coming from east. Baha'u'llah means "Glory of God"

Even if, and it is certainly not the case, that Jesus only spoke about his times it would not matter because the Holy Spirit or paracleate was sent to lead born again Christians into all truth. Not some truth for certain ages, all truth for all ages.

Anybody can claim he is new born Christian. I think this can be just like another denomination of Christianity claiming to be the True Christian.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Easy, anything that requires God to die in agony on a cross is not easy.

Jesus died on the cross. So He did suffer not the Christians who live now.
Christian believe, if they have faith in Jesus, that takes them to Heaven. This is an easy way to get to heaven isn't it?
So, this idea is very appealing for people who are after easy things.

 

[JustWondering]

I agree... the similarities between what I have read in the Bhagavad Gita and what I have read in the Christian bible are quite striking.

Almost like one borrowed ideas from the other.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Almost like one borrowed ideas from the other.

Or they came from the same source?

 

[JustWondering]

Or they came from the same source?

Or not. Like I've asked before, where were the prophets for the Native Americans? Did god overlook them or does he like to play favorites?

 

[1robin]

That is YOUR OPINION.

Then you should be able to tell me the category in textual criticism that the bible does not exceed all other. The fact (not opinion) is that exceeds all others in every category. It exceeds every single other work of any kind in ancient history. There is more textual evidence for Jesus than and any other historical character. My claim that the bible is true is an evidenced based opinion, the claim that is the best attested religous text is a fact.

Logic? God sends himself as a man to earth to sacrifice himself to himself to give himself permission to forgive mankind for being human and not perfect. I fail to see any logic in your supernatural belief system.

I did not say the doctines of the bible were logical (yet they are). I said it makes sence to investigate the religion with the greatest textual attestation first. They are two seperate issues. God provided the sacrifice because sinful man has nothing to offer for our sins. It is the greatest act of compassion in human history.

What evidence?

25,000 historical corroberations, 2,500 prophecies, the historicity of Jesus, the detailed and competent eyewitness testimony of dozens, philisophic consistency, theologic consistency that spans 1500 years and 40 authors, unkown scientific knowledge, and explanitory power. It meets every demand of even the historical method.

For one to be a christian, christ must be a part of the equation somewhere, you are correct. However, I don't remember diversity being mentioned in the bible anywhere. If the bible delivers such a consistent message (as you have claimed) why are there hundreds of different sects with wildly different ideas?

Every Christian is a member of the body of Christ (the true church) this is what the bible says about the roles of the differing members of the body.

16 And if the ear should say, "Because I am not an eye, I am not of the body," is it therefore not of the body? 17 If the whole body were an eye, where would be the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where would be the smelling?
18 But now God has set the members, each one of them, in the body just as He pleased. 19 And if they were all one member, where would the body be?
20 But now indeed there are many members, yet one body. 21 And the eye cannot say to the hand, "I have no need of you"; nor again the head to the feet, "I have no need of you."
22 No, much rather, those members of the body which seem to be weaker are necessary. 23 And those members of the body which we think to be less honorable, on these we bestow greater honor; and our unpresentable parts have greater modesty,
The church: the body of Christ : The Living Word Library
Some are teachers, some are preachers, some are musicians, and some are missionaries, etc....
The NT speaks against rigid tradition and allows freedom to worship as long as that worship is in truth. Most religions do not widely dissagree. They might differ on transubstination, or pre melinialism, etc.... This has nothing to do with getting to heaven or the nature of Christ. There is no valid justification to require or expect that 750,000 words on the most contentious subjects in human history will have perfect agreement by all 2 billion Christians alive today. However Christ unites us under one banner.

 

[1robin]

Well, I mean, not just the moral problems, but other things such as how to achive World Unity and peace in this Age. Jesus, predicted that He came not to bring peace, but sword.

Here we go again you are interpreting the symbolic as literal. The sword is a metaphor for the word and yes it will create division. World peace and unity is a pipe dream. There can never by unity between the Godly and the ungodly. In fact according to Baha'i this unity which will never happen until armagedon was predicted to have already happened.

Baha'i Faith brought certain new knowledge by which humanity gradually will achive the goal of unity and peace.

No they won't. We are no closer to that absolute impossability than we were 4 thousand years. One world governments and institutions are called signs of the anti-Christ in the bible. It says the anti-christ himself will almost establish this one world government and would have led everyone to Hell except for Christ's intervention. Baha'i has declared a biblical anti-Christ prophecy.

Jesus was capable of bringing the same teaching too, but people were no ready yet in that Age.

There is nothing but opinion to back this up. The bible contains every thing needed until the day that this world ends no matter what anyone teaches.

why the Bible did not say it is forbidden to have slaves?

I have already explained this. The bible's main purpose is not to make a bad world good. It is to make spiritually dead people live. That is why this world will be destroyed in the end. Slavery was an accepted practice by every nation at the time. Telling them not to have slaves is impractical. It would be the same as telling modern cultures to give up electricity. God did make the practice far more benign and most biblical slavery was voluntary and was similar to endentured labor and ended after seven years. The brutal type of slavery in the U.S. in the 1800s was forbidden by God.

But He did say, He still have many things to tell, and He leaves untill another one will come. He also talked about His own return. I believe Baha'u'llah fulfills the prophecies regarding the return of Christ.

No he does not, the one whom Jesus promised came right after he died. In fact the bible says he had to leave in order for it to come. This is evidenced by the Holy Spirit in the upper room. Unless Baha'u'llah was causeing tongues of fire to descend on the apostles then he can't possibly be this last prophet. Christ said he was coming back himself and Baha'u'llah is not Christ. Christ has nail prints in his hands and feet forever and said he was not coming back until the literal temple is built again and all Christians are raptured to heaven. He also said he would come back on clouds of glory sitting at the fathers right hand. None of this plus many more verses make possible your claim. You have been forced to adopt a false position and an undefendable doctrine. It looks like Baha'i meets every single requirement named in the bible for a false religion and prophet. Not even the gross distortion of Biblical verses and doctrines can remedy this.

Moreover, the Laws of Christianity were to be observed till the coming of the Lord.

Not exactly, what the bible says changed was that the levitical law was abolished but all other laws are written in the heart of the believer instead of stone.

"For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes." 1 Corin. 11:26

This has no connection to the discussion. This means that every time communion is celebrated that we affirm what Christ did. I am not sure that even Baha'i can make the verse mean anything else.

Yes, the bible talks about the Lord of Host. I believe that is Baha'u'llah.
Also Bible talks about Glory of God coming from east. Baha'u'llah means "Glory of God"

Baha'u'llah means only what someone decided it means. He did not do anything that would lead any open minded person to believe he is the glory of God. There is no verse that says this. You are misunderstanding verses as always.
New International Version (©1984)
Therefore in the east give glory to the LORD; exalt the name of the LORD, the God of Israel, in the islands of the sea.
Isaiah 24:15 Therefore in the east give glory to the LORD; exalt the name of the LORD, the God of Israel, in the islands of the sea.
This verse is an instruction to groups of Jews that had escaped to islands in the sea in the east. It instructs them to give glory to God, it does not say that anyone from the east may claim prophet hood and has nothing to do with Baha'i.

or if you are using this verse.

And behold, the glory of the God of Israel came from the east; and the sound of his coming was like the sound of many waters; and the earth shone with his glory. And the vision I saw was like the vision which I had seen when he came to destroy the city, and like the vision which I had seen by the river Chebar; and I fell upon my face. As the glory of the LORD entered the temple by the gate facing east, the Spirit lifted me up, and brought me into the inner court; and behold, the glory of the LORD filled the temple
When God Leaves--and Returns Again
Baha'a'lluah did not meet a single characteristic described above.

Anybody can claim he is new born Christian. I think this can be just like another denomination of Christianity claiming to be the True Christian.

What? Jesus said in John and many other places that we must be born again by faith in his sacrifice to ever see the kingdom of God. He was speaking to Nicodemus who was a good priest and obeyed the law. If any one could get to heaven on merit it was him, but Jesus said to him how can you call yourself a teacher of men and not know you must be born again. He also said he was the narrow gate. There is no such thing as an unborn again Christian. The bible does not teach that in any form. It does not matter what people claim. God records your name in the book of life when we are born again (saved) and he will know who is and who isn't his.

I apologise if I am a little blunt concerning Baha'i but consider it tough love. It is a little offensive to have someone distort the Holy word so badly to salvage the unsalvagable. I am judging your views on the Bible not you personally.

 

[1robin]

Jesus died on the cross. So He did suffer not the Christians who live now.
Christian believe, if they have faith in Jesus, that takes them to Heaven. This is an easy way to get to heaven isn't it?
So, this idea is very appealing for people who are after easy things.

It is the only way to get to Heaven. It's ease is independant of it's truth. There have been tens of thousands of Christians killed for their beliefs. As the actual true religion it and its followers are constantly under seige by the ungodly majority and must withstand every thing Satan can muster. It is no easy task to adopt a position that inherets these risks.

 

[JustWondering]

I did not say the doctines of the bible were logical (yet they are). I said it makes sence to investigate the religion with the greatest textual attestation first. They are two seperate issues. God provided the sacrifice because sinful man has nothing to offer for our sins. It is the greatest act of compassion in human history.

Lets make sure I got this right. God creates imperfect beings (humans) and then persecutes said beings for not being perfect. However, all is not lost! If you believe hard enough, this god character will bring you back to life after you die (why do believers die at all if their doing what their supposed to?) and let you live forever in a utopian paradise. Of course, for this to happen a perfect being needs to die horribly on a cross. Don't really get why the last part is neccessary but hey I don't make the rules. Thats how I understand christianity. Doesn't make a bit of sense.

25,000 historical corroberations, 2,500 prophecies, the historicity of Jesus, the detailed and competent eyewitness testimony of dozens, philisophic consistency, theologic consistency that spans 1500 years and 40 authors, unkown scientific knowledge, and explanitory power. It meets every demand of even the historical method.

As I've already said, if your "evidence" was actually convincing in any way, we'd all be christians. However, in reality, everyone is not a christian, are they?

 

[Breathe]

He didn't make us that way. He loved us so much that he made us with freewill and the ability to love him or reject him. Would you rather be an automaton? Unfortunately we rejected him and chose to live apart from him. He even provided the way to reconciliation himself and endured agony and death to make it possible. All you have to do is believe. If you refuse even that then it isn't his fault and he can't be blamed. It is like someone offering you a lottery ticket and you refuse and then blame your poverty on them. He gives us exactly what we choose, eternal seperation from him or eternal life with him. Every sin we commit every day is a witness to this.

Don't believe in any of that.

Or not. Like I've asked before, where were the prophets for the Native Americans? Did god overlook them or does he like to play favorites?

How would we know if he did? Do you know much about Native American religions to make the claim they didn't have something which was a prophet? Besides, what is even meant by prophet? Could one man's prophet be another man's shaman, for example? Why even the need for prophets?

There may be similarities that most people are not aware of at the moment. From what I've seen, Native American religions seem to have a shameful lack of study from scholars and comparative religionists. Comparative religion is a hobby of mine, and I've not even got round to reading of Native American religions yet.

From what I've been told, Native American religions have a fair amount of similarities to Dharmic religions.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Or not. Like I've asked before, where were the prophets for the Native Americans? Did god overlook them or does he like to play favorites?

They also had prophets, but there is no record of History. It might have been before Adam, but at that time the art of writing did not exist the way exist now.
The Bible and Quran talk about after Adam, but not before.
The absence of any reference to them is no proof that they did not actually exist.