Too many religions

[1robin]

If our wills were truly free we would be able to free-will ourselves right through the Pearly Gates on our own terms.

I said our wills are free, I did not say we were omnipotent. Will and capability are two different issues. We can will anything that can be thought of, but that has nothing to do with what will happen.

I believe human free-will is a myth, an illusion.

Then why bother discussing anything? And how can we justify putting any one in jail or spanking a disobedient child? This terrible idea is part of a new-age concept that seeks to remove accountability from actions. Below is what St Augustine said about free will. He is far more qualified than me and you combined to address the subject. He wrote the second most meaningful text on religion in human history.

CANON V.- If anyone shall affirm, that since the fall of Adam, man’s freewill is lost and extinguished; or, that it is a thing titular, yea a name, without a thing, and a fiction introduced by Satan into the Church; let such an one be accursed"!
Contrasting Augustine and the Council of Orange (529 AD) with The Council of Trent (1563)

At any rate, this simply takes us back to my original statement in post

#263: The idea that an all-powerful, all-knowing deity would feel the need to toss His creation in the eternal incinerator for being what He Himself made them to be makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

Well if your God does not grant freewill he is even more malevolent than the Christian God. However God did not make us to rebel. He made us capable of choosing and we chose to rebel and God must reluctantly allow it. He did not create us to fail and meet destruction.

 

[savagewind]

I have witnessed hundreds of fulfilled prophesies and I have heard of hundreds more.

I think people's problem with the Bible is it seems to say "this is the way it will be" but people don't like that. People want things their way so they have to reject the Bible. I think it doesn't care.

 

[1robin]

If something does not make sense to me then I have no choice but to consider it nonsense, right?

Nope, your understanding of something is not the criteria for what makes sence and what does not. You are able to say that 2 + 2 = 4 does not make sence, however it actually does.

I used to be a christian by the way. Until I actually started studying the bible and really looking at the religion.

No insult intended but I find this statement about the most illogical and contradictory thing I have ever heard. 1. How did you become a Christian and only afterwards read the book that shows us how to be saved. 2. This is equivalent of having faith in an untested drug and when it cures you then you decide you do not believe in medecine. 3. What makes a person born again is an experience with God that results in proof and to later deny what made your original premise true is baffling. 4. IMO only people who only had a superficial agreement with biblical philosophy instead of a relationship with Christ would later on denounce it. However I guess anything is possible but this is highly unlikely.

Every point I've raised so far is valid.

There is no valid argument that can over turn the bible. That is why it has buried all it's critics and will continue to do so.

You continue to repeat the same arguements like a parrot and dismiss anything anyone says that contradicts your belief system. You claim there is evidence to support your belief but have yet to provide this evidence.

There is no need to invent new arguments since the ones I have used are valid.

You say thousands of people belief the same as you do so you must be right. Do you really think that reality will accomadate you if the majority of humans on earth believe your myths as true? Reality is reality. Thats it.

I did not say that because billions agree then I know I am correct. I said that like every claim to a historical fact witness testimony is always used to make a probability case for the claims truthfullness. God can't be proven or disproven that is why faith is needed. However the probability that he exists given the biblical evidence is very high and that is the conclusion of experts in the fields law, evidence, and history. There is no other character in ancient history that is as well attested as Christ yet I bet you do not dismiss the existance of Ceaser, Plato, Socrates etc..... Double standards.

My point was that it doesn't have to be this way. God is god, he could make people immortal if he wanted, right?

Actually we were made immortal according to the bible but Adam's sin made us mortal. God will eventually remedy this and make people who believed him immortal again. Telling God what to do is like an ant telling Pascal how to do science.

My arguements are valid. There is no evidence in the bible of its credibility.

If they were then Christianity would have died in the cradle and it wouldn't be the fastest growing religion 2000 years later. You did not present a single thing that dissproves one verse of the bible. I don't even remember anything that potentially could have. It has mainly been what think should have happened or comments about what you don't like.

You continue to dismiss my arguements based on emotional reasons instead of sound arguements supported by evidence. I am not the one making a claim that a god exists, you are. Where is the REAL evidence to support YOUR claims? I haven't seen any yet.

I have provided plenty, the fact you arbitrarily dismiss or ignore them without justification has no effect on their truth. Prophecy alone proves God. There is no alternate explenation for them. They exist, period. Until you can actually show biblical prophecy false then your claims above will remain invalid.

 

[1robin]

I have witnessed hundreds of fulfilled prophesies and I have heard of hundreds more.

I think people's problem with the Bible is it seems to say "this is the way it will be" but people don't like that. People want things their way so they have to reject the Bible. I think it doesn't care.

Good points. People would deny the sun exists if by admitting it does exist resulted in their being accountable to God.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I have never met one who ever even heard of him.

So what?
I think this Quote from Baha'u'llah is a good answer to this:

"We have decreed, O people, that the highest and last end of all learning be the recognition of Him Who is the Object of all knowledge; and yet, behold how ye have allowed your learning to shut you out, as by a veil, from Him Who is the Day Spring of this Light, through Whom every hidden thing hath been revealed. "

Gleanings from the writings of Baha'u'llah

Do you think, people have such a high knowledge to recognize the truth?
Sometimes, people become so proud of their little knowing, that it becomes a barrier to see anything else. I think that is the case.

Moreover, only a thirsty and sincere person, is worthy knowing the truth.

This is about the most innacurate statment I have ever seen. I do not think it would be possible to state anything that is refuted by more teachings than this. It would take volumes to fully explain everything wrong with this statement. In short what makes a Christian a Christian is that he follows Christ by virtue of being born again based on his death and reseraction. Christ warned against false prophets said the Holy Spirit was the last. Said it is finished on the cross. Said in revelations that his message was finished. He never mentioned your "prophet" or religion and by the rules he gave to identify false prophets your meets most standards. This being the case your statement is simply obsurd. If you could cut through the brain washing to some clarity you would realise why no or virtually no Christian recognises Baha'u'llah is because he is not Christ or even a Godly prophet. He is another in a long list who have created false teachings and tried to asociate them with the bible to gain credability even if that requires distortion and heresy.

This is your openion.
I think this Quote from Baha'u'llah might be a good one for this subject:

"For the people are wandering in the paths of delusion, bereft of discernment to see God with their own eyes, or hear His Melody with their own ears. Thus have We found them, as thou also dost witness.
Thus have their superstitions become veils between them and their own hearts and kept them from the path of God, the Exalted, the Great.
Be thou assured in thyself that verily, he who turns away from this Beauty hath also turned away from the Messengers of the past and showeth pride towards God from all eternity to all eternity."

 

[paarsurrey]

Jesus died on the cross. So He did suffer not the Christians who live now.
Christian believe, if they have faith in Jesus, that takes them to Heaven. This is an easy way to get to heaven isn't it?
So, this idea is very appealing for people who are after easy things.

Jesus did not die on the Cross.

 

[paarsurrey]

They also had prophets, but there is no record of History. It might have been before Adam, but at that time the art of writing did not exist the way exist now.
The Bible and Quran talk about after Adam, but not before.
The absence of any reference to them is no proof that they did not actually exist.

I agree with you here.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Your standard for what is true seems to be whether Baha'u'lluah said it is or not. My standard requires that who ever claims to represent or be divine must show ample proof for that claim which he did not and Jesus and the biblical prophets did. How is it you think that the bible in which Jesus claims: to be the way the truth and the life and no one proceeds to the father but through him alone or that there is no name under heaven by which men may be saved is compatable with pluralism? That is as exclusive as it gets and is in no way consistent with what you wrote above. Baha'i would have been much better off too reject the bible than to accept in and then learn than it contradicted Baha'i and resort to inaccurately translating everything to force fit what won't be force fit. Our discussion seems to wind up in the same place every time. You claim the bible and Baha'i are both valid, I show they are not , and you resort to you believe Baha'lluah when he said _____________. Basically if he said up was down and north was south all the physics and geography in the world would not matter.
[/size]

Well, Baha'u'llah wrote to many, including religious leaders. So, I think these quotes from Baha'u'llah might be a good answer for you:

"Say: O leaders of religion! Weigh not the Book of God with such standards and sciences as are current amongst you, for the Book itself is the unerring balance established amongst men. In this most perfect balance whatsoever the peoples and kindreds of the earth possess must be weighed, while the measure of its weight should be tested according to its own standard, did ye but know it. "


"O ye leaders of religion! Who is the man amongst you that can rival Me in vision or insight? Where is he to be found that dareth to claim to be My equal in utterance or wisdom? No, by My Lord, the All-Merciful! All on the earth shall pass away; and this is the face of your Lord, the Almighty, the Well-Beloved. "

Gleanings from Writings of Baha'u'llah

There is no parralel to Christian persecution in human history. The only thing close is the holacaust, but it only existed for a short time. Christianity after 2000 years is still the fastest growing religion there is and according to the bible it will still be here until they are taken out of this world before God destroys it. Baha'i claims the bible is true and the bible disagrees with you.

There never was a large group of people called Noahians. I am not sure if there was ever a single one. There is no indication that what you said is true. The bible says that will not be the case and Baha'i says the bible is correct so why are you dissagreeing with both?

The point is every people has an end.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

If someone had the backing of god like moses in egypt, wouldn't the native americans, at least some of them, have adopted monotheism? Monotheism is a foreign concept to native american religions.

In my openion, not nessacerily. It depends how long ago these prophets came to them. It is a fact that the Message changes throughout ages. Specially if it was not written. Consider how many generations are passed and how many rulers have come and gone, and how many religious leaders tryed to interprete those teachings according to their own understanding.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Jesus did not die on the Cross.

Well, I believe He did. This is what the Bible said. I don't believe Bible is corrupted. I believe What Quran says, is the interpretation of Bible is corrupted, but the Moslem scholars misunderstood. The Quran is talking about the Spirit and Reality of Christ that was not cruicified, but His physical body was cruicified and died. That verse in Quran has a spiritual meaning, and is not to be taken literally.

 

[1robin]

Jesus did not die on the Cross.

What are you talking about? The evidence that he died on the cross and rose again has been said to meet every standard of modern law and the historical method by experts such as Simon Greenleaf who is the greatest expert on evidence in human history. The actuall events that the bible describes as to what happened on the cross exactly match what forensic medical experts say would have happened medically. The apostles who would have known if he didn't die on the cross however they all risked their lives and some lost their lives because they claimed he did die and rise again. Why would someone die for a lie? There is more textual evidence for the historical Jesus than any other figure of ancient history.

 

[Astravalon]

I said our wills are free, I did not say we were omnipotent. Will and capability are two different issues. We can will anything that can be thought of, but that has nothing to do with what will happen.

Then human will isn't “free”. Quite the opposite -- it's constrained by divinely-set parameters. Let’s see what your bible has to say about human "free" will:

He turned their heart to hate His people, to plot against His servants. (Psalm 105:25)

All abiding on the earth are reckoned as naught: According to His will is He doing...with those abiding on the earth. (Daniel 4:35)

Consequently, then, it is not of him who is willing, nor of him who is racing, but of God, the Merciful. (Rom 9:16)

Consequently, then, to whom He will, He is merciful, yet whom He will, He is hardening. (Rom 9:18)

Has not the potter the right over the clay, out of the same kneading to make one vessel, indeed, for honor, yet one for dishonor? (Rom 9:21)

The mind of man plans his way, but the Lord directs his steps (Prov 16:9)

The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the Lord (Prov 16:33)

Many are the plans in a man's heart, but the counsel of the Lord will be established (Prov 19:21)

Man's steps are ordained by the Lord (Prov 20:24)

The king's heart is like channels of water in the hand of the LORD; He turns it wherever He wishes. (Prov 21:1)

For it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure. (Phil 2:13)

all things through Him did happen, and without Him happened not even one thing that hath happened. (John 1:3)

I know, O LORD, that a man's life isn't his own; it is not for man to direct his steps. (Jer 10:23)

But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God. (John 3:21)

Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father. (Matthew 10:29)

In Him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of Him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of His will, (Eph 1:11)

You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for You created all things, and by Your will they were created and have their being. (Rev 4:11)

There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men. (1 Cor 12:6)

From one man He made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and He determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. (Acts 17:26)

Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed. They did what Your power and will had decided beforehand should happen. (Acts 4:27-28)

Who has withstood His intention? (Rom 9:19)

For the Lord of Hosts has planned it, who can frustrate it? (Is. 14:27)

God locks up all together in stubbornness, that He should be merciful to all (Rom 11:32)

We cannot arrange our case because of darkness (Job 37:19)​

Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in Me? The words I say to you are not just My own. Rather, it is the Father, living in Me, who is doing His work. (John 14:10)

Jesus gave them this answer: 'I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by Himself; He can do only what He sees His Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.' (John 5:19)​

If even Jesus didn’t operate apart from God’s will, what Christian who believes what their bible tells them can possibly insist they can do otherwise?

 

[Astravalon]

Well if your God doesn't grant freewill he is even more malevolent than the Christian God. However God did not make us to rebel. He made us capable of choosing and we chose to rebel and God must reluctantly allow it. He did not create us to fail and meet destruction.

Now you’re simply rejecting the magnitude of God’s Divinity by equating it with malevolence (as if establishing a "hell" didn't already qualify as malevolent).

What happened to “not my will but Yours be done”? Is it only nice as a sentiment and not a reality?

What part of God being the Potter and us the clay is so hard to accept?

These things are in your bible... so, what’s the problem?

 

[1robin]

So what?
I think this Quote from Baha'u'llah is a good answer to this:

You said a born again Christian should recognise Baha'a'lluah as the second coming (which is very offensive by the way). I was saying that is impossible and even if true he has provided nothing that would affirm his claim. The fact that 99.9% plus of Christians do not believe this should be an indication that his claims are false.

"We have decreed, O people, that the highest and last end of all learning be the recognition of Him Who is the Object of all knowledge; and yet, behold how ye have allowed your learning to shut you out, as by a veil, from Him Who is the Day Spring of this Light, through Whom every hidden thing hath been revealed. "

Gleanings from the writings of Baha'u'llah

I would not waste my time quoteing him. I do not accept him as a source of divine knowledge. It would still be worthwhile if there was a single reason to conclude that he might be. There is far more information confirming him by the Bible's criteria as a false prophet and none as a true prophet. I do not mean to be insulting but my duty is to the truth and I do not see any reason to think Baha'i being the truth is even possible.

Do you think, people have such a high knowledge to recognize the truth?

Some do some don't. If no one can identify the truth then why give it. God makes sure that his truth may be recognised by any one willing.

Sometimes, people become so proud of their little knowing, that it becomes a barrier to see anything else. I think that is the case.

Moreover, only a thirsty and sincere person, is worthy knowing the truth.

The case with what? It sounds like you are making excuses for the fact that very few people believe what you do. The Christian message and the events of Christ's life were so powerful that even though it happened before writing was common and was persecuted continuously however it overcame all of that to spread like wildfire. If Baha'i was as powerful a truth as the Gospels then it too would have over come every obstical. It unlike the bible happened in a time where the internet, printing press, and televised media exist. I do not think people are stupid is a good excuse for the fact that very very few agree with your views.

This is your openion.

Your a trip, you wrongfully claim essential biblical doctrine I stated is my opinion and then post a far less substantial opinion to counter it.

I think this Quote from Baha'u'llah might be a good one for this subject:

"For the people are wandering in the paths of delusion, bereft of discernment to see God with their own eyes, or hear His Melody with their own ears. Thus have We found them, as thou also dost witness.
Thus have their superstitions become veils between them and their own hearts and kept them from the path of God, the Exalted, the Great.
Be thou assured in thyself that verily, he who turns away from this Beauty hath also turned away from the Messengers of the past and showeth pride towards God from all eternity to all eternity."

Again not to be disrespectful but I have no more reason to value this statement as divine than some one's on the corner in New York city yelling at traffic. I do not trust anyone who claims things that are exclusive are all true and distorts every one elses scriptures in order to force them to say what they do not say, as well as claiming to be God without showing any proof of it. Sincerely what is the difference between that guy and the lunatic in the hospital claiming to be Christ. They both can't demostrate who they are, both distort logic to make their claims plausable, and both conclude it is our fault we can't recognise how right they are. Arabs said the same thing about Muhammad (another false prophet IMO) they told him if he was in contact with the divine to prove it by doing literal miracles like the older biblical prophets did to prove their origin. Of course Muhammad being a false prophet could not do any either. However the Bible is full of literal miracles to prove the origin of their claims. It is no wonder since your prophet doesn't rise to the level of biblical prophets that tearing down biblical prophets is the only tactic left.

 

[Bismillah]

The simplest way I approached this question was looking at the basic tenants or religion. When looking at polytheistic religions such as Hinduism and the idols and ceremony surrounding them I felt that God had been humanised and trivalised by such action. That by dividing and creating sub-deities you debase God and his essence and thus your worship is misdirected. Similarly I looked at Christianity and found the trinity, the Father and Son relationship, and the idea of God being cast on Earth in human flesh as creating worldly constraints on a transcendent being. It rung to me as an attempt to try and familiarize and quantify the unknowable. Looking at things such as Buddhism I saw it as a means to live a life but without any greater purpose and void of any answer of the question of why does life exist in the first place.

In such a manner I went through many religions and looked at their basic tenants before moving on. Eventually I narrowed my list down to being able to look at particular religions in a more comprehensive style.

 

[1robin]

Then human will isn't “free”. Quite the opposite -- it's constrained by divinely-set parameters. Let’s see what your bible has to say about human "free" will:

You are confusing freedom with capability. I am free to will anything I wish but that does not mean my will can cause pluto to crash into venus. Judgeing from what you posted below I am going to have to amplify my belief on free will. I believe we are generally free to choose what we want. However I believe that at times God superceeds our will based on his sovereignty. This is very rare and is the exception by far. Also a Christian agrees to allow God to trump his will as needed. That is hard to explain and I am not competent to explain it.

He turned their heart to hate His people, to plot against His servants. (Psalm 105:25)

This is accounted for by my clarification above.

All abiding on the earth are reckoned as naught: According to His will is He doing...with those abiding on the earth. (Daniel 4:35)

This is a statement about what God is doing according to his will. It does not apply to the people's will.

Consequently, then, it is not of him who is willing, nor of him who is racing, but of God, the Merciful. (Rom 9:16)

This one is a little tricky. It means that the action of salvation is initiated by the will of God. We may will to be saved but only the will of God performs the action.

Consequently, then, to whom He will, He is merciful, yet whom He will, He is hardening. (Rom 9:18)

This is accounted for by my clarification above.

Has not the potter the right over the clay, out of the same kneading to make one vessel, indeed, for honor, yet one for dishonor? (Rom 9:21)

This is a statement about sovereignty.

The mind of man plans his way, but the Lord directs his steps (Prov 16:9)

This is only for believers. A believer surrenders his will or the rights to his will to God. That is part of the deal.
We still have freewill almost all the time, it is still an exception that God steps in.

The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the Lord (Prov 16:33)

This concerns fate not our will.

Many are the plans in a man's heart, but the counsel of the Lord will be established (Prov 19:21)

This means that even if man wills that armegeddon never happens it still will. This is again a statement about capability not free will.

Man's steps are ordained by the Lord (Prov 20:24)

This concerns consequences and guidence not an automaton control.

The king's heart is like channels of water in the hand of the LORD; He turns it wherever He wishes. (Prov 21:1)

This is accounted for by my clarification above.

For it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure. (Phil 2:13)

This is a reference to the Holy Spirit sometimes called the parecleate. He comes along side to guide and councell but normally not force.

all things through Him did happen, and without Him happened not even one thing that hath happened. (John 1:3)

This is about sovereignty and concerns God's passive will. He may allow our failure by his permissive will. He has the ability to stop any action he wishes but his will most times is to allow our will to produce even negative results as in the case where people deny him service or faith.

I know, O LORD, that a man's life isn't his own; it is not for man to direct his steps. (Jer 10:23)

This means that man should allow God to order his steps. In other words the Holy Sprit's councel should be followed however we do not do so most of the time as we should.

​

 

[1robin]

But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God. (John 3:21)

Without faith it is impossible to please God we should follow Godly principles and allow these Godly principles to produce what is pleasing to God. ALMOST ALL OF THESE IMPLY THAT WE CAN ACT CONTRARY TO THESE SUGGESTIONS BUT COUNCILS AGAINST THAT AND THAT IS IMPOSSIBLE WITHOUT FREE WILL

Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father. (Matthew 10:29)

This concerns God's permissive will not ours. It means in effect God could have prevented the sparrows to fall but instead allowed it.

In Him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of Him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of His will, (Eph 1:11)

This is one of the most missunderstood concepts in the bible and deals again with God's permissive will in one part and his active will in another. I am not qualified to clarify this one further.

You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for You created all things, and by Your will they were created and have their being. (Rev 4:11)

This deals with God's will in creation and is not relevant.

There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men. (1 Cor 12:6)

This is an explenation for the fact that the same God was working in cooperation with these men to produce miracles and signs. We give God permission to use us by faith. That does not mean that in most cases it is forced.

From one man He made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and He determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. (Acts 17:26)

Well I can tell you that some of them asked for permission to live in a different place and after consultation with God they were allowed to on condition. This is accounted for by my clarification above.

Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed. They did what Your power and will had decided beforehand should happen. (Acts 4:27-28)

This is accounted for by my clarification above.

Who has withstood His intention? (Rom 9:19)

This seems irrelevant.

For the Lord of Hosts has planned it, who can frustrate it? (Is. 14:27)

This concerns consequesnces and the exceptions where God forces actions.

God locks up all together in stubbornness, that He should be merciful to all (Rom 11:32)

This is more easily understood by saying that this is the natural condition unless God interceeds. In other words he allows the natural inclination towards stubbornness to operate without restraint.

We cannot arrange our case because of darkness (Job 37:19)

Regardless of what are wills are doing there are forces that will overcome us without God. Again this is capability not freedom.

Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in Me? The words I say to you are not just My own. Rather, it is the Father, living in Me, who is doing His work. (John 14:10)

This is an example of a perfectly obedient will surrendering it's own sovereignty in favor of God's. WITHOUT FREE WILL THIS COULD NOT HAPPEN.

Jesus gave them this answer: 'I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by Himself; He can do only what He sees His Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.' (John 5:19)

He was stating that since he had voluntarily perfectly surrendered his will to the father and did nothing on his own. IF FREEWILL DID NOT EXIST THIS IS NOT WORTH SAYING. IF HE COULDN'T HELP BUT DO WHAT HE WAS MADE TO DO THEN WHY POINT IT OUT.

If even Jesus didn’t operate apart from God’s will, what Christian who believes what their bible tells them can possibly insist they can do otherwise?

That is an easy one. Jesus was an example of perfect surrender. If we can do nothing but perfectly surrender then why aren't we all as perfect as Jesus. The fact that he asks us and demostrates this surrender of will would only make sence if we could not do so. No one would tell the sun to be hot, it has no choice. God says be obediant because we can not be.

How did you look all these up? It must have taken a while. This effort deserves a better cause. I would post all the verses that make freewill a fact but I am exhausted.

Explain this: Why would God command Adam to not eat of the tree unless he was capable of disobeying and doing it anyway? Why would God make him immortal in the first place if later Adam had no choice but to eat from the tree and become mortal?
​

 

[1robin]

Now you’re simply rejecting the magnitude of God’s Divinity by equating it with malevolence (as if establishing a "hell" didn't already qualify as malevolent).

No, I was saying that what you described would be malevolent and since God is benevolent then God did not do what you claimed. Hell would only possibly be malevolent if it were not what many Christians believe it to be. It IMO is a symbolic description of eternal seperation from God through destruction of the soul. I find that more benevolent than our own accepted capital punishment system.

What happened to “not my will but Yours be done”? Is it only nice as a sentiment and not a reality

What? Yes a person should surrender their will to God. What does that have to do with the fact we can also choose not to do so?

What part of God being the Potter and us the clay is so hard to accept?

There is nothing in that symbology that means that God creates us as automotons. If he did we would all be acting Godly. Can you tell my what purpose would be served if God is controlling people to makie them act in unGodly ways? Your idea creates insurmountable logical problems. The argument kind of detroys it's self. Will you honestly say that you did not choose to write this post?

These things are in your bible... so, what’s the problem?

No problem, those verses do not rule out freewill for the vast proportion of our time on Earth. Plenty of other verses attest to the fact that we do have freewill. Why would God tell us that we should have faith if we could not help but to or not to not have it?

 

[1robin]

Similarly I looked at Christianity and found the trinity, the Father and Son relationship, and the idea of God being cast on Earth in human flesh as creating worldly constraints on a transcendent being.

You are assuming the Trinity is Biblical. I do not have a position as the issue is a minor one to me but many Christians claim that the Trinity is not in the bible. The worldly constraints you mention were necessary because Jesus was to provide an example for us. Jesus voluntered to surrender or suppress much of his diety so that we might identify with him. If he was at full power so to speak and didn't feel pain, discomfort, misery, and fear then what kind of example would he have been. The bible says he suffered as we suffer. His life is the most profound example of compassion in human history.

 

[Bismillah]

I don't really want to argue over this as it detracts from the OP.

My premise is simple the vast majority of religions can be condensed to an essential core. I have found that there are some basic tenants within religions that I cannot reconcile basic belief.

My specific objection to Christianity is the fact that God incarnate is thought of as mortal whose sacrifice is the key to salvation. This concept of God becoming a part of and succumbing to the natural affairs of this word and the fact that it is he who needs to sacrifice himself is foreign to me. If they work for you then more power to you.