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Too many religions

1robin

Christian/Baptist
You've been told and shown several times that that isn't true.

You're arguing over who is the more credible non-eyewitness separated from the event by decades or more. :D
I am so bored I will answer you. The simple fact that you think they have or wish they had has no bearing on the fact they have never been shown false in the least instance. No matter what claims you make right or wrong against the Gospels they are infinately worse for the Quran in every category.


Lord Lyndhurst (1772-1863), recognized as one of the greatest legal minds in British history, the Solicitor-General of the British government in 1819, attorney-general of Great Britain in 1824, three times High Chancellor of England, and elected in 1846, High Steward of the University of Cambridge, thus holding in one lifetime the highest offices which a judge in Great Britain could ever have conferred upon him. When Chancellor Lyndhurst died, a document was found in his desk, among his private papers, giving an extended account of his own Christian faith, and in this precious, previously-unknown record, he wrote: "I know pretty well what evidence is; and I tell you, such evidence as that for the resurrection has never broken down yet"


J. N. D. Anderson is "...a scholar of international repute and one eminently qualified to deal with the subject of evidence. He is one of the world's leading authorities on Islamic law...He is dean of the faculty of law in the University of London, chairman of the department of Oriental law at the School of Oriental and African Studies, and director of the Institute of Advanced Legal Studies in the University of London."
This outstanding British scholar who is today influential in the field of international jurisprudence says: "The evidence for the historical basis of the Christian faith, for the essential validity of the New Testament witness to the person and teaching of Christ Himself, for the fact and significance of His atoning death, and for the historicity of the empty tomb and the apostolic testimony to the resurrection, is such as to provide an adequate foundation for the venture of faith."


"...two able young men, Gilbert West and Lord Lyttleton, went up to Oxford. They were determined to attack the very basis of the Christian faith. So Littleton settled down to prove that Saul of Tarsus was never converted to Christianity, and West to demonstrate that Jesus never rose from the tomb. The crux of the problem of whether Jesus was, or was not, what He proclaimed Himself to be, just surely depend upon the truth or otherwise of the resurrection. On that greatest point we are not merely asked to have faith. In its favour as living truth there exists such overwhelming evidence, positive and negative, factual and circumstantial, that no intelligent jury in the world could fail to bring in a verdict that the resurrection story is true.' "

(By the way they admitted failure on Paul as well)

Clifford Herschel Moore, professor at Harvard University, well said, "Christianity knew its Saviour and REdeemer not as some god whose history was contained in a mythical faith, Jesus was a historical not a mythical being. No remote or foul myth obtruded itself of the Christian believer; his faith was founded on positive, historical, and acceptable facts."
http://www.angelfire.com/sc3/myredeemer/Evidencep29.htmlhttp://www.angelfire.com/sc3/myredeemer/Evidencep29.htmlhttp://www.angelfire.com/sc3/myredeemer/Evidencep29.html
Bolding mine, of course.


I could add these quotes from men whom like Simon Greenleaf and others have ceredentials that have no equal or at least can't be exceeded. They are infinately qualified on the matters of evidence and testimony and far exceed any puny effort
at rebuttal. About the only response to these experts plus dozens and dozens more like them is probably only the trusted and always handy claim that Christians can't be used to defend Christianity canard.
 

Heathen Hammer

Nope, you're still wrong
I am so bored I will answer you. The simple fact that you think they have or wish they had has no bearing on the fact they have never been shown false in the least instance. No matter what claims you make right or wrong against the Gospels they are infinately worse for the Quran in every category.

'They'? 'They' includes you as well. No eyewitnesses.

You can't show imaginary events to be 'false', as there's no proof to examine.

And your appeals to these so-called scholars is also fallacious, since your hyperbole and such [read: lies] are already well known here. Also, most of them [the scholars you constantly cite] are simply wrong :) Christians to begin with and thus, their testimony is already tainted.
 
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repiv

A Father
One major reason for me, that keeps me from being a theist, is that there are too many religions. People seem to concentrate on one religion with blinders on and ignore everything else. How can a theist look at all the religions they don't belong to, past and present, and not wonder if their religion is just as made up or fictitious as all the religions they don't believe in? What makes today's gods more reasonable and credible than past gods like Zeus, Ra, and Odin? Religion still boils down to people believing incredible claims with zero evidence to support any of it. Additionally, if there was a god that wanted to communicate a message to us, I think it would be capable of doing a much better job of it then sending a middle man to preach it in one corner of the world to one group of people. A true god would be capable of sending multiple prophets to multiple people in the world with the same message at the same time. However, we don't see that.

I can not disagree with you in a general sense. When I look at religious history in a broad sense I do not see a singular messenger but rather many messengers. What I see as a big problem with religious history is the arrogance and self pride of people involved with it. Using a broad brush statement you notice most religious thought attempts to have people change the actions and thoughts that are self destructive and bread resentment and hatred. This is basically a very good thing.

Unfortunately many a religious thought has been over taken by people with those very traits religion is attempting to change and turned it for those selfless personal use.

What I find most sad is that most religious leaders profess to teach and have an understanding of God's heart and desire, yet they are unable to make room at their table, much less in their heart, for those of another faith. How very sad. That is definitely not the heart of an ALL loving God. In my book that makes them hypocrites of the first order.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
I think the way to do with too many belief structures is to just pick a letter of the alphabet, and focus down on things ONLY starting with that letter.

For me, I picked A (through random generation).

Left me with

Atheism
Agnosticism
Adventist (kinda)
Amish (boo...couldn't post)
Anabaptist
Anglican

And whatever else I've forgotten. Anyways, since there was 6, I just rolled a die. Took me 5 rolls before it came up the way I wanted it to.
 

John Martin

Active Member
One major reason for me, that keeps me from being a theist, is that there are too many religions. People seem to concentrate on one religion with blinders on and ignore everything else. How can a theist look at all the religions they don't belong to, past and present, and not wonder if their religion is just as made up or fictitious as all the religions they don't believe in? What makes today's gods more reasonable and credible than past gods like Zeus, Ra, and Odin? Religion still boils down to people believing incredible claims with zero evidence to support any of it. Additionally, if there was a god that wanted to communicate a message to us, I think it would be capable of doing a much better job of it then sending a middle man to preach it in one corner of the world to one group of people. A true god would be capable of sending multiple prophets to multiple people in the world with the same message at the same time. However, we don't see that.

Our spiritual journey is a continuous journey to realize our unity with God. It can be compared to climbing a hill. People start at different starting points at the bottom of the hill. The goal is to reach the top of the hill. when people are climbing from one side they may not see those who are on the other side. Sometimes people stop the journey and make tents to relax. Later the tents might become permanent structures and thus religions are born. So there can be many structures on the hill in different places and different levels. A person who has reached the top of the hill sees all the religions on the hill, nothing is outside the hill but they stagnate the truth. He or she invites everyone to come out of their houses and make journey to the top of hill where everyone is united with everyone and with God. God is one but religions can be many. Religions are only temporary tents for resting not to settle down. All the problems come only when people stop making journey to the top of the hill.
All religions belong to the evolutionary process of human consciousness. They have their value but they are relative. Everyone is called to realize that there is only one God and that everyone comes from that one God and returns to that one God, like a piece of ice that comes from the water and returns to it.
 
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Breathe

Hostis humani generis
I still hold this view:

Personally:

As an inclusive panentheist, I see all religions as a people's attempts at grasping the Same Divine: I all conceptions of God: Allah, Vāhigurū, Śiva, Viṣṇu, Bahá, Yahweh, and more, as attempts to reach it and to explain it to others: it differs because of the following:

  • culture
  • history
  • traditions
  • folklore
  • myths
  • language
  • prophets
  • preachers
  • reformers

...and many more. These are just a few.

[... snip ....]

Though, I guess I'm not exclusive, literalistic, or rude enough to warrant responses. :sad:

:p
 

Sha'irullah

رسول الآلهة
I still hold this view:



Though, I guess I'm not exclusive, literalistic, or rude enough to warrant responses. :sad:

:p

That is exactly how I feel just minus the pantheism :D. ALL prophets were merely theological philosophers and were the products of their era. When one claims an absolute religion they are taking a bold and foolish step that results in them doing their best to maintain an impossible image that is riddle with human error.
 
I believe that if we do have a creator, that whatever purpose (if any) we are meant to carry out will be done because it is encoded into our DNA to do so. No revelations, miracles, visits from angels, or divine intervention of any kind needed. If we have a creator it is likely we will never know why it created us. I doubt there is any kind of afterlife. I have not seen, heard, or experienced anything to make me believe in the supernatural. I believe any creator would be part of the natural order of things.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
I still hold this view:



Though, I guess I'm not exclusive, literalistic, or rude enough to warrant responses. :sad:

:p

Let me ask you then. What is your position about the relationship between the religions' role as aids for, as you put it, grasping the Divine and actual belief in God?
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
I believe that if we do have a creator, that whatever purpose (if any) we are meant to carry out will be done because it is encoded into our DNA to do so.

That however is a somewhat mechanicist view, isn't it? Maybe the common assumption that "god" (whatever that might mean) is the "creator" (again, whatever that might actually mean) is a mistake. It sure sounds odd to me right now that an actual human might conceivably care more and be more involved with his creation than this god people talk so much about.

Maybe that is why theistic religion created the concept of Free Will, which I happen to find misleading.


No revelations, miracles, visits from angels, or divine intervention of any kind needed. If we have a creator it is likely we will never know why it created us. I doubt there is any kind of afterlife. I have not seen, heard, or experienced anything to make me believe in the supernatural. I believe any creator would be part of the natural order of things.

Well, why would anyone need belief in God in the first place?
 
...why would anyone need belief in God in the first place?

Belief in a god is not a need. If there is a "god" I very much doubt it would even closely resemble anything we think it might be like.

Religion is man's attempt to understand the universe he is in and his place in it. At this point in time the scientific method is much more reliable than theology at furthering our understanding of the universe.
 

Breathe

Hostis humani generis
Let me ask you then. What is your position about the relationship between the religions' role as aids for, as you put it, grasping the Divine and actual belief in God?
I'm not entirely confident I've grasped the question entirely, but I thought I'd give it ago anyway. :D

IMO, religion the focus of the community with the language, history, scripture, etc. In many ways, it can be useful as an aid, but many rely on it too much, leading to exclusivism.

But belief in God can be independent of religion (as you know; atheistic and transtheistic religious views, and non-denominational theists) and can, in many ways, be better than religion.

But, religion frequently fulfills our desire to belong to something 'bigger', have an identity, and our social desires and roles.

I think there are spiritual non-religious people (more interested in living a good life to please God, even if they break a few religious rules here and there), and religious non-spiritual people (more interested in following precepts and being admired by people, but it's all a farce).

Does that answer the question (even if briefly?)... or have I answered something you didn't ask? (Wouldn't be the first time. :D)
 

Breathe

Hostis humani generis
That is exactly how I feel just minus the pantheism :D. ALL prophets were merely theological philosophers and were the products of their era. When one claims an absolute religion they are taking a bold and foolish step that results in them doing their best to maintain an impossible image that is riddle with human error.

Panentheism. :p
:D

And I agree; I feel that many who hold absolutes and are "it's THIS way or no way" are worshipping their own egos.
 

Shia Islam

Quran and Ahlul-Bayt a.s.
Premium Member
One major reason for me, that keeps me from being a theist, is that there are too many religions.

The topics addressed by religions are almost the same....
So, Generally, all religions have the same set of questions...

They offer different answers to these questions...

this is the same with any discipline in life...

Just that Philosophers present different answers to the same ontological questions, for example, should not make us discard Philosophy all-together.

so moving back to the main point, You need to compare the answers and find your way to the truth...

God will guide you, provided that you are honest in your search.
 

John Martin

Active Member
Sterling Archer
That is exactly how I feel just minus the pantheism :D. ALL prophets were merely theological philosophers and were the products of their era. When one claims an absolute religion they are taking a bold and foolish step that results in them doing their best to maintain an impossible image that is riddle with human error.

If pantheism means pan=everything is theos=God,then we can not accept it. If pantheism means that there is only one God(monotheism) and creation is the manifestation of God or creation is sacred then pantheism can still be relevant. There is only one infinite or God,everything is finite.

Absolute religion is not possible. To create an absolute religion is like trying to put the infinite space into four walls and a roof. We can speak of fullness of Truth. Fullness of truth is that in which the love of God is one hundred percent and the love of neighbour is one hundred percent. When a person says, ' God and I are one'' this is one hundred percent love of God.This statement can be misunderstood. Here the 'I' is not human 'I'. It is divine 'I'. It can also be said that the ground of human consciousness and the ground of the universe are one and the same. It is better to say only God is.
When a person feels unity with the whole of creation and lives for the welfare of the whole of creation, then in this the love of neighbor
has reached one hundred percent. This is the fullness of Truth. No truth can go beyond that. But no religion can contain it a belief system or moral system. Individuals have to grow into it. Religions are only like fingers pointing towards it. Religions are only like nests which prepare one to fly into the freedom of the fullness of Truth. The head connected to the infinite and the feet are firmly rooted in the finite is the fullness of truth.
 
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Sha'irullah

رسول الآلهة
Panentheism. :p
:D

And I agree; I feel that many who hold absolutes and are "it's THIS way or no way" are worshipping their own egos.

Now I agree with Panentheism as it is the most perfect way to describe God's omnipresence. He is seperate but at the same time always with his creation. He literally involves all of existence and because of the concept of an "expanding universe" this ties in with the concept of god being "infinite". :D
Indeed taking the authoritative route for religion is negative and its only displays an egotistical tendency followed by an authoritative one. One must spend more time proving their scriptures accuracy than actually knowing god. Scriptures are just a basis for understanding god no differently than how a person will not agree with every word spoken by philosophers.
 

Sha'irullah

رسول الآلهة
The topics addressed by religions are almost the same....
So, Generally, all religions have the same set of questions...

They offer different answers to these questions...

this is the same with any discipline in life...

Just that Philosophers present different answers to the same ontological questions, for example, should not make us discard Philosophy all-together.

so moving back to the main point, You need to compare the answers and find your way to the truth...

God will guide you, provided that you are honest in your search.

Very well spoken :yes:
 

Breathe

Hostis humani generis
Now I agree with Panentheism as it is the most perfect way to describe God's omnipresence. He is seperate but at the same time always with his creation. He literally involves all of existence and because of the concept of an "expanding universe" this ties in with the concept of god being "infinite". :D
Yep. :D

Panentheists really are a dime a dozen on this board... :D
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
I'm not entirely confident I've grasped the question entirely, but I thought I'd give it ago anyway. :D

IMO, religion the focus of the community with the language, history, scripture, etc. In many ways, it can be useful as an aid, but many rely on it too much, leading to exclusivism.

But belief in God can be independent of religion (as you know; atheistic and transtheistic religious views, and non-denominational theists) and can, in many ways, be better than religion.

But, religion frequently fulfills our desire to belong to something 'bigger', have an identity, and our social desires and roles.

I think there are spiritual non-religious people (more interested in living a good life to please God, even if they break a few religious rules here and there), and religious non-spiritual people (more interested in following precepts and being admired by people, but it's all a farce).

Does that answer the question (even if briefly?)... or have I answered something you didn't ask? (Wouldn't be the first time. :D)

You sort of answered my question, yes. Although it takes some effort for me to understand what you mean.

You are truly a theist (or panentheist, I suppose), aren't you? :)

The way you put it, it seems that you are completely rid of my almost instinctive suspicion of belief in God.
 
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