Torah in Christianity

[74x12]

This is in religious debates and so is open to everyone.

In trying to understand Christianity and what underpins it, I keep coming up against essentially the belief that the Torah isn't enough, it's not good enough, it doesn't do this or that.

Psalm 19 says 'The Law of the Lord is perfect', and the Torah in Deut 4 says not to add or take away from it, and in Deut 30 it says it is not far away, hard to do etc.

Can someone please explain to me, if the Torah is perfect, which the Tanakh says it is, why is Jesus or Christianity as a whole necessary? There shouldn't be any need for any 'new' revelation or upgrade, per the Torah itself (it would be adding or taking away).

Can you still have Christianity if you believe the Torah is perfect? I don't believe you can.

I do believe the Torah is perfect. It's only "imperfection" was not itself. It was people; humans. We are it's only weakness. The Torah itself can't change people's hearts by itself. The only one that can change the heart is God. You can work very hard to improve yourself according to the Torah. You can study it and talk about it day and night. Which it even tells you to do. You can obey Psalm 1:1 and be like a tree by a river by constantly meditating on the Torah. It says talk about it when you walk and when you get up in the morning etc. But that won't be enough by itself. You still need God.

The Law can't make you perfect. It can only tell you what perfection is. Joshua even tried to reason with the whole nation of Israel that they couldn't hope to serve the LORD! By this he meant they couldn't keep the Torah. See Joshua 24:19.

His words proved correct as we see they continually backslid from obeying the Torah and ended up being conquered by enemies; plagued by droughts and various pandemics. So they endured much suffering. All this because they just could not seem to stick to the Torah for very long. It eventually resulted with them in Babylon. Anyway, the point here is not to put down the Jewish people. I think we humans are all like that. None of us can really serve God as we are naturally. If the Jews had trouble obeying the Torah; then gentiles have an even harder time obeying it because they aren't used to it.

The prophets were able to serve God better than everyone else because God gave them the holy Spirit. This is the Spirit of the LORD and because they had the Spirit in them they were enabled to love and serve God with all their hearts.

So we read one story in Numbers about how God put his Spirit on some of the elders to help them judge the people so that Moses wouldn't have to judge the people all day. Because it was taking all his time. But Joshua sees this and he says Moses should stop all these other prophets from prophesying. But Moses says he wishes that the entire nation of Israel had the holy Spirit.

Numbers 11:29
And Moses said unto him, Enviest thou for my sake? would God that all the Lord's people were prophets, and that the Lord would put his spirit upon them!

This would actually one day become the will of God. As Joel prophesied God would indeed pour out his Spirit on all flesh. So now anyone can receive the Spirit like the prophets had. The same Spirit!

Joel 2:28-31
And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.

This is really the new Covenant that is in Jeremiah 31:31-34. This is why the new Covenant was needed. God promised he would one day write the Torah in their hearts. After this they would not even require teachers anymore saying "know God" because God himself would be with them (Literally in them) and teach them. Also he would forgive all their sins. (Jeremiah 31:31-34)

So the "Torah in their hearts" is the Spirit of God in their hearts. It is the Spirit Moses, Elijah and all the rest had in them. The holy Spirit is what can enable anyone to love and serve God from the heart. Not because of outward laws/restrictions.

So in summary the Torah of Moses is the Law of God imposed on someone from without. It's like tying yourself up. Something forcing you to do good against your own will. Like reins on a horse and a harness. It keeps you in the way if you obey it. But if you disobey you suffer and you lose.

But the new Covenant is from within yourself. It's enabling you to do good from your very heart because you suddenly want to please God and you suddenly have the desire for the things of God. You can be like David in the Psalms who just loved God and loved to praise God. He enjoyed God's presence. David also had the holy Spirit from the time that Samuel anointed him with the oil onwards.

This way you don't end up seemingly obeying the Torah but your heart is far from God because no matter how hard you try to obey every little law in the Torah somehow you just don't love God. (see Isaiah 29:13) Jesus spoke of people like this who paid tithes on all the herbs in their garden but missed the more important commandments.

So you can obey all the Torah and still miss only one point of it. You could end up missing the greatest commandment of all! Thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thy heart, mind, soul and strength.

With the holy Spirit you can love God. Because the Spirit will be in you loving the things of God through you.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Disagree and think Jesus Christ is not the cornerstone, but rather his lesson that we must learn directly from the Father. That is the cornerstone. Even stones can be made into children for Abraham, and no human is needed. This is the stone that the builders rejected and reject even now, as do many new builders who construct more franchises. For example the Methodists rely upon a method of transmission. This is the stone made without hands which strikes the foot of the statue made of kingdoms, smashing the kingdoms of this world to powder and replacing them with a new and unending one.

Psalm 118 contains a reference to 1 Samuel, "The LORD is my strength and my defense" emphasizing nothing human is our defense, nothing manmade. The gospel takes that lesson and applies it to the spirit. It is not from humans that we obtain the spirit. Human are not our defense, not our shield. Not teacher. Not systems. Not missionary societies.

I think you're going to be hard pushed trying to show from scripture that Jesus Christ is not the cornerstone of the Church.

Ephesians 2:18-22 [speaking to the Church]. 'For through him [Jesus Christ] we both [Jew and Gentile] have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit'.

1 Peter 2:5,6. 'Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
Whereof also it is contained in the scripture, Behold I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious [see Isaiah 28:16]: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed'.

Both Peter, the chief apostle to the Jews, and Paul, the chief apostle to the Gentiles, make it clear that Jesus Christ is the cornerstone of the Church.

The risen Lord is spiritual, and the Holy Spirit is sent from the Father (LORD) through the Son (Lord) to believers. It remains an invisible spiritual Church despite the fact that born again believers, from many denominations, are in the flesh whilst on earth.

 

[Mister Emu]

In trying to understand Christianity and what underpins it, I keep coming up against essentially the belief that the Torah isn't enough, it's not good enough, it doesn't do this or that.

Yes, but non-Jews are, well, not Jewish - so none of this applies to them.

Precisely, this. The Covenantal relationship between Jews and God was just that, for Jews. The covenant between all of humanity and God is that, a different covenant that encompasses all people. They are different, and if there is a covenant to be made the includes non-Jews it must necessarily be so.

As a Christian, I am grafted into the promise of Abraham, one of God's chosen people. But, I am not a participant in God's covenant with Israel to follow the mitzvot. I am a participant in God's universal covenant with all mankind founded by Christ and His sacrifice.

Can you still have Christianity if you believe the Torah is perfect? I don't believe you can.

I've been a member of both the S. Baptist and the Catholic Church, both churches taught that the covenant between Jews and God was not removed with the Covenant of Christ. Nor is there a disparaging of the law as provided in God's covenant with Israel.

Isaiah 53 is speaking about Israel.

You're applying post-Christian consensus universally.

This was already dealt with way back in the time of Solomon. It is replaced with prayer.

How? You can't add or take away anything from the law and it is perfect, right?

 

[Brickjectivity]

I think you're going to be hard pushed trying to show from scripture that Jesus Christ is not the cornerstone of the Church.

Fine. I agree he is the cornerstone of the church in that passage of Ephesians, but the stone the builders reject is the one that builders cannot touch. The stone the builders rejected is his message, nor is Peter what the church is to be built upon but the principle of hearing from the Father, nor is the stone made without hands an individual but is the same teaching. It is the teaching to let go of trust in systems of teaching, to let go of trust in methods, in leaders. So the Levites he considers a failure. The Pharisees he considers to have failed and criticizes their focus upon training up disciples like themselves. He also embarrasses the Sadducees. His own chosen disciples are the worst people to put into a room with one another. They look like a junk drawer.

Both Peter, the chief apostle to the Jews, and Paul, the chief apostle to the Gentiles, make it clear that Jesus Christ is the cornerstone of the Church.

The risen Lord is spiritual, and the Holy Spirit is sent from the Father (LORD) through the Son (Lord) to believers. It remains an invisible spiritual Church despite the fact that born again believers, from many denominations, are in the flesh whilst on earth.

Jesus sends Peter, the opposite of a scholar, to the Jews. He sends Paul, the most scholarly apostle, to the gentiles but makes Paul preach foolishly. Paul is far more educated than most anyone, but he is sent to ignorant people, to people who can't benefit from his years. At every stage Jesus undermines belief in systems and in schools. He wants people to think for themselves and to not become lords over others.

 

[Brian2]

I almost hate to say anything because I have agreed with quite a bit you have said. But somehow there is some kind of change to the law as it says in Hebrews 7:12

Yes with the change in priesthood to someone not of Levi that part of the law is changed necessarily, but still the Torah is not changed because the Torah predicts this. (Ps 110:4)
Christians are grafter into Judaism and we all are then priests.
Nevertheless the law of love sums up the whole Law of Moses, so the Law in essence is not changed.

 

[Brian2]

AFAIK, non-Jews never become part of the priestly nation. If you have verses about that, bring them.

If non Jews are grafted into Israel through the New Covenant then gentiles become part of the priestly nation.
The whole thing is no doubt about what God wants to do. It is not all about the Jews, it started off with no Jews and humanity sinning and the Jews have been part of a plan to bring everyone and everything back to God. The first promise of the Messiah was to non Jews, Adam and Eve. (Gen 3:15)
Joel 2:28-31 tells us of a time when God pours out His Spirit on all flesh, that includes the Gentiles and that giving of the Spirit is what happens in the New Covenant.

Ezek 36:25I will also sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean. I will cleanse you from all your impurities and all your idols. 26I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will remove your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27And I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes and to carefully observe My ordinances.…

Isa 59:20“The Redeemer will come to Zion, to those in Jacob who turn from transgression,” declares the LORD. 21“As for Me, this is My covenant with them,” says the LORD. “My Spirit will not depart from you, and My words that I have put in your mouth will not depart from your mouth or from the mouths of your children and grandchildren, from now on and forevermore,” says the LORD.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

If non Jews are grafted into Israel through the New Covenant then gentiles become part of the priestly nation.

The People of Israel have a process for adopting outsiders in -- a halakhic conversion (many valid according to Jewish law). This conversion involves giving up former gods and religions. IOW any Christian who wants to become part of the People of Israel would necessarily have to give up their Christianity. So, I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but you don't get to just proclaim you are grafted in. You do not get to just show up at our doorstep and say "Hey I'm your new adopted brother, where's the fridge?" If we don't accept you, then you are not a part.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

AFAIK, non-Jews never become part of the priestly nation. If you have verses about that, bring them.

This is not quite accurate. A lawful convert is 100% Jew, a new member of the People of Israel. Of course, this so called grafting in has nothing to do with a lawful conversion.

 

[Sedim Haba]

I don't understand your answer. You seem to agree with my statement that Christianity failed. But my question is: If Christianity failed, then technically it was actually successful, because Christianity comes to teach that mankind is doomed to fail at every venture.

Oh, sorry, I misunderstood. Yes, humans keep failing, but G-d keeps trying.
Or, at least he used to. Not anymore perhaps, only so much failure is tolerated.

 

[1213]

I interrupt that I suggest caution here. ...
Christians are in a far more precarious position than Jews when it comes to last straw scenarios, because we have a threat in Revelation chapters 1 - 3 that our churches can be snuffed out forever. We have Jesus saying that God is able to make sons for Abraham from mere stones. God does not need Christians or Jews, and God could merely be tolerating both.

Caution is always good. And the situation for Christians (disciples of Jesus) is different. Christians should have Holy Spirit, the God’s law written in their heart. If they don’t have, then that is a problem and they probably don’t get the eternal life. But, I think the situation is no more precarious for them than for Jews. Some individuals probably don’t survive, but some will survive.

 

[Harel13]

Oh, sorry, I misunderstood. Yes, humans keep failing, but G-d keeps trying.
Or, at least he used to. Not anymore perhaps, only so much failure is tolerated.

I'm not sure how this answers the question, but so far, interestingly, you seem to think that some form of Christianity isn't the best way to go about anymore.

 

[Rival]

This is not quite accurate. A lawful convert is 100% Jew, a new member of the People of Israel. Of course, this so called grafting in has nothing to do with a lawful conversion.

Yeah, I'm not talking about converts tho.

 

[Rival]

You're applying post-Christian consensus universally.

This isn't post Christian.

How? You can't add or take away anything from the law and it is perfect, right?

It's not adding or taking away. It literally cannot be done if there's no Temple. When there's a Temple, the animal sacrifice system resumes.

 

[Brian2]

The People of Israel have a process for adopting outsiders in -- a halakhic conversion (many valid according to Jewish law). This conversion involves giving up former gods and religions. IOW any Christian who wants to become part of the People of Israel would necessarily have to give up their Christianity. So, I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but you don't get to just proclaim you are grafted in. You do not get to just show up at our doorstep and say "Hey I'm your new adopted brother, where's the fridge?" If we don't accept you, then you are not a part.

It is not the children that say who is going to be adopted and who is not.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

It is not the children that say who is going to be adopted and who is not.

What planet do you live on that you think someone can adopt themselves into a family without that family's desire for the adoption?

 

[Redemptionsong]

Fine. I agree he is the cornerstone of the church in that passage of Ephesians, but the stone the builders reject is the one that builders cannot touch. The stone the builders rejected is his message, nor is Peter what the church is to be built upon but the principle of hearing from the Father, nor is the stone made without hands an individual but is the same teaching. It is the teaching to let go of trust in systems of teaching, to let go of trust in methods, in leaders. So the Levites he considers a failure. The Pharisees he considers to have failed and criticizes their focus upon training up disciples like themselves. He also embarrasses the Sadducees. His own chosen disciples are the worst people to put into a room with one another. They look like a junk drawer.


Jesus sends Peter, the opposite of a scholar, to the Jews. He sends Paul, the most scholarly apostle, to the gentiles but makes Paul preach foolishly. Paul is far more educated than most anyone, but he is sent to ignorant people, to people who can't benefit from his years. At every stage Jesus undermines belief in systems and in schools. He wants people to think for themselves and to not become lords over others.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, according to John 1:1 and Revelation 19:13. It is wrong, therefore, to claim that the message of Jesus Christ is somehow distinct from the person. The new covenant is not a new law but the old law fulfilled in a man, Christ Jesus.

IMO, it is also not accurate to think of Christ as bringing a new religion. The claim of Christians is that Jesus Christ is the fulfilment of OT prophecy.

When Paul began to preach the risen Lord, he went to both Jews and Gentiles. The book of Acts shows that, for a long time, the mission was to persuade both Jews and Gentiles that the Messiah had come. Paul's focus on the Gentiles was because of the popular uptake of the Gospel. Finally, in Acts 28:22-29 Paul speaks a word of prophecy over the Jewish nation, repeating the words of Isaiah, making it clear that the Gospel was foolishness to those whose hearts had 'waxed gross' and were not ready to receive Christ.

I will add, that l agree that Peter is not the rock upon which the Church would be built. The rock is, throughout scripture, a reference to the Lord.

 

[Brian2]

What planet do you live on that you think someone can adopt themselves into a family without that family's desire for the adoption?

I did not adopt myself into a family, God did that when He gave me His Spirit and the Jews have no say in it.

 

[Redemptionsong]

The People of Israel have a process for adopting outsiders in -- a halakhic conversion (many valid according to Jewish law). This conversion involves giving up former gods and religions. IOW any Christian who wants to become part of the People of Israel would necessarily have to give up their Christianity. So, I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but you don't get to just proclaim you are grafted in. You do not get to just show up at our doorstep and say "Hey I'm your new adopted brother, where's the fridge?" If we don't accept you, then you are not a part.

How can belief in the King of the Jews be a new religion?

 

[Harel13]

I did not adopt myself into a family, God did that when He gave me His Spirit and the Jews have no say in it.

Gee, that attitude worked out well for the last 2000 years.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I did not adopt myself into a family, God did that when He gave me His Spirit and the Jews have no say in it.

Brian: you can't just show up on someone's doorstep and announce to them that you are adopted into their family. The adoption requires the consent of the family doing the adopting.