Torah in Christianity

[rosends]

Your understanding of scripture is a matter of the utmost importance, IMO!

Do you think that the 'messenger of the covenant' is Elijah? Surely, that is more likely to be the 'messenger' who 'shall prepare the way before me'. [Malachi 3:1, Isaiah 40:3]

There are experts who are light years beyond me in understanding and learning and spirituality. Asking my opinion when there are sages who have explained the text and made connections to other texts is silly.

 

[Redemptionsong]

So you are quoting medrash now and ignoring the talmudic quotes that are actually discussing these exact medrashim and show how this language has nothing to do with the sabbath. But, hey, if you want to look at medrash and decide that what it says must be a literal truth that you can apply, let me know -- there are many other medrashim that you might be interested in relying on when interpreting text. Are you buying, wholesale, into medrash, let me know. Of course, medrash doesn't ever mean that the literal/simple translation is wrong and rarely is the information in a medrash used to understand the message of a text on which it speaks, but you do you. Just to help out, the talmud also discusses the name of the messiah and the name Jesus isn't in there.


It is nice that it suggests something to you. Imagination is important.

This is side-stepping the issue.

The question is whether or not a day can be used to mean a thousand years. All three teachers, mentioned above, understand, or interpret, a day to represent a thousand years. This is entirely in keeping with the teaching of Peter in 2 Peter 3:8.

It is also entirely in keeping with Genesis 1 acting as a prologue, or framework, for God's plan of redemption.

 

[Redemptionsong]

There are experts who are light years beyond me in understanding and learning and spirituality. Asking my opinion when there are sages who have explained the text and made connections to other texts is silly.

Which experts do you think have got it right?

 

[rosends]

This is side-stepping the issue.

The question is whether or not a day can be used to mean a thousand years. All three teachers, mentioned above, understand, or interpret, a day to represent a thousand years. This is entirely in keeping with the teaching of Peter in 2 Peter 3:8.

It is also entirely in keeping with Genesis 1 acting as a prologue, or framework, for God's plan of redemption.

No, the issue is whether one can ignore the reading of the text (day=day) when the text is clearly talking about a day, because in another case, there is a medrashic reading that allows for an interpretation which would also mean that day can be understood to refer to 1000 years. None of the medrashic sources would say that because one can see a deeper meaning also, the explicit text doesn't mean what it says.

 

[rosends]

Which experts do you think have got it right?

Whether the reference is to a guardian angel, to Elijah or some other force? I have no idea. I study the opinions and any specific preference that I, in my limited capacity would have would reflect nothing except that I haven't finished studying all the words of the sages. I will say that a number of different commentators mention Elijah, so who am I to argue?

 

[Redemptionsong]

Whether the reference is to a guardian angel, to Elijah or some other force? I have no idea. I study the opinions and any specific preference that I, in my limited capacity would have would reflect nothing except that I haven't finished studying all the words of the sages. I will say that a number of different commentators mention Elijah, so who am I to argue?

...with honey out of the rock should l have satisfied thee.

 

[rosends]

...with honey out of the rock should l have satisfied thee.

I could try to figure out your point and respond, but the sabbath is about to begin so I guess I'll see you in, what? Like a thousand years, I guess.

 

[1213]

That's why Christians don't follow most of it? The law written on hearts is,

A) Only for Israelites

B) The exact same Torah, nothing obsolete or unnecessary.
...

Bible tells Jews broke the previous covenant. Do you think that is true?

Behold, the days come, says Yahweh, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they broke, although I was a husband to them, says Yahweh. But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says Yahweh: I will put my law in their inward parts, and in their heart will I write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people: and they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know Yahweh; for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says Yahweh: for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin will I remember no more.
Jeremiah 31:31-34

 

[TrueBeliever37]

AFAIK, non-Jews never become part of the priestly nation. If you have verses about that, bring them.

We are a kingdom of priests in the new covenant that was established. Why do you reject it? Revelation 1:5-6

As far as some OT verses showing that Gentiles will also be the people of God:

Joel 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh...

Joel 2:32 And it shall come to pass that whosoever shall call on the name of YHWH shall be delivered ...

Malachi 1:11 ...my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith YHWH of hosts.

Daniel 7:13-14 that all people, nations, and languages should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom shall not be destroyed.

Isaiah 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, the mountain of YHWH's house shall be established... and all nations shall flow unto it.

Psalms 86:9 All nations whom thou hast made shall come and worship before thee, O YHWH; and shall glorify thy name.

Isaiah 56:6-7 ...for my house shall be called a house of prayer for all people.

Isaiah 49:6 ...I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

Isaiah 42:6 ...for a light of the Gentiles

Isaiah 45:22 Look unto me and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth...

 

[Brian2]

Continuous burnt offerings, grain offerings, and sacrifices.

The offerings and sacrifices are for thanks and praise. There will be not more sacrifice of animals imo

 

[alypius]

Psalm 19 says 'The Law of the Lord is perfect', and the Torah in Deut 4 says not to add or take away from it, and in Deut 30 it says it is not far away, hard to do etc.

Isn't Psalm 19 part of the Ketuvim not the Torah?

 

[Brickjectivity]

This is in religious debates and so is open to everyone.

In trying to understand Christianity and what underpins it, I keep coming up against essentially the belief that the Torah isn't enough, it's not good enough, it doesn't do this or that.

We cannot demand answers, and if we announce what we seek someone will offer to sell us some snake oil. You have been approached with snake oil. Truth is precious, and there are defenders who guard the path to it. If you don't believe truth is precious then you won't get near it. If its not for you or if it isn't the right time for you to know.

Psalm 19 says 'The Law of the Lord is perfect', and the Torah in Deut 4 says not to add or take away from it, and in Deut 30 it says it is not far away, hard to do etc.

Can someone please explain to me, if the Torah is perfect, which the Tanakh says it is, why is Jesus or Christianity as a whole necessary? There shouldn't be any need for any 'new' revelation or upgrade, per the Torah itself (it would be adding or taking away).

Can you still have Christianity if you believe the Torah is perfect? I don't believe you can.

The temple was destroyed. Why? According to the oaths upon Mt. Ebal and Gerazim it can only mean the Jews failed catastrophically. The destruction of the temple is against that generation who are shamed and blamed for it. Jewish tradition suggests that when Israel has a catastrophic failure it can be brought back through a small group or even through a single individual.

Today's Jews claim to follow Torah, and that is their claim to be the successors of Moses. The Christians claim to follow Jesus, the perfected Jew. He is the vine upon which they are grafted. This does not have anything to do with questions about whether the Torah has a flaw which are distractions and extraneous from the center. Those who say the Torah is flawed you can ignore, because they are under educated.

 

[Rival]

Isn't Psalm 19 part of the Ketuvim not the Torah?

I'm using the whole of Tanakh. It's all considered inspired, by Jews and Christians.

 

[Rival]

We are a kingdom of priests in the new covenant that was established. Why do you reject it? Revelation 1:5-6

As far as some OT verses showing that Gentiles will also be the people of God:

Joel 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh...

Joel 2:32 And it shall come to pass that whosoever shall call on the name of YHWH shall be delivered ...

Malachi 1:11 ...my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith YHWH of hosts.

Daniel 7:13-14 that all people, nations, and languages should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom shall not be destroyed.

Isaiah 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, the mountain of YHWH's house shall be established... and all nations shall flow unto it.

Psalms 86:9 All nations whom thou hast made shall come and worship before thee, O YHWH; and shall glorify thy name.

Isaiah 56:6-7 ...for my house shall be called a house of prayer for all people.

Isaiah 49:6 ...I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

Isaiah 42:6 ...for a light of the Gentiles

Isaiah 45:22 Look unto me and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth...

None of these verse say non-Jews will be part of God's people. God's people are the Jews. These verses say non-Jews will worship the Jewish God. Noahides already do, but it doesn't make them God's people. That is a role applied only to Israel.

 

[Redemptionsong]

I could try to figure out your point and respond, but the sabbath is about to begin so I guess I'll see you in, what? Like a thousand years, I guess.

Peace be with you.

 

[Kenny]

They didn't add new laws though. That's the thing.

I guess I'm always going to be dissatisfied, as all answers necessasitate some change in a law that is called perfect and says not to add it take away from it.

I just don't see how any other law is possible here, let alone one that applies to non-Jews.

In our understanding, we see it this way beyond the issue of living in the here and now. It has to do with eternity and unity with God.

Is The Law good and perfect? Absolutely.

But, although it is perfect, it awakens the desire to sin and it also shows that we do sin which separates us from full fellowship with the Most Holy God. For every additional perfect law there is more transgressions and thus sacrifices to try to restore the fellowship.

I say "it awakens" because as soon as some say "speed limit 55 mph", someone wants to go 56 or as far up as possible without getting a ticket.

Thus, God chose a better way to restore all things to full fellowship - (in our view) - the Messiah.

 

[shunyadragon]

There is a problem here. God does not build a temple made with stone. God only builds a spiritual temple.

David thought that God wanted him to build his temple, but was told otherwise. Solomon thought, as David's son, that he must be the one to build the temple, which he did. But the temple he built was only a temporary solution. God wanted the Son of David, and the Son of God, to build God's temple.

The everlasting temple is greater than the stone temple, and it's spiritual. Only God can build it. The cornerstone is Christ, according to scripture.
Psalm 118:22,23.

What do you make of 2 Chronicles 2:5,6?

This does not reflect the history and beliefs of Judaism of concerning prophesy and the Hebrews building temples.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Bible tells Jews broke the previous covenant. Do you think that is true?

Behold, the days come, says Yahweh, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they broke, although I was a husband to them, says Yahweh. But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says Yahweh: I will put my law in their inward parts, and in their heart will I write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people: and they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know Yahweh; for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says Yahweh: for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin will I remember no more.
Jeremiah 31:31-34

I interrupt that I suggest caution here. This is "Boasting against the original branches." Have you considered that God's toleration is what allows Christians to continue? Its not as if we have a patent on good behavior.

In the larger context, no; because they returned to the covenant. They break covenant multiples times in scripture stories, but this is part of the plan for them -- to break it and then repent again in cycles. It is not fair to quote this small section of Jeremiah and ignore its context in Jeremiah and claim there is a last straw. Worse than that is to show ignorance of the cycle of disobedience, punishment, repentance, obedience. This cycle is very important in understanding the story of the Jews in scripture, and it lays the ground to understand forgiveness in Christ, too. Isaiah talks about the cycle like a cycle for refining silver. Matthew alludes to it when it places emphasis upon Jesus 42 generations.

Christians are in a far more precarious position than Jews when it comes to last straw scenarios, because we have a threat in Revelation chapters 1 - 3 that our churches can be snuffed out forever. We have Jesus saying that God is able to make sons for Abraham from mere stones. God does not need Christians or Jews, and God could merely be tolerating both.

 

[Redemptionsong]

This does not reflect the history and beliefs of Judaism of concerning prophesy and the Hebrews building temples.

Instead, it reflects an understanding that Jesus Christ is the stone the builders refused, but which is 'become the head stone of the corner'. [Psalm 118:22] 'This is the LORD's doing'.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Instead, it reflects an understanding that Jesus Christ is the stone the builders refused, but which is 'become the head stone of the corner'. [Psalm 118:22] 'This is the LORD's doing'.

Disagree and think Jesus Christ is not the cornerstone, but rather his lesson that we must learn directly from the Father. That is the cornerstone. Even stones can be made into children for Abraham, and no human is needed. This is the stone that the builders rejected and reject even now, as do many new builders who construct more franchises. For example the Methodists rely upon a method of transmission. This is the stone made without hands which strikes the foot of the statue made of kingdoms, smashing the kingdoms of this world to powder and replacing them with a new and unending one.

Psalm 118 contains a reference to 1 Samuel, "The LORD is my strength and my defense" emphasizing nothing human is our defense, nothing manmade. The gospel takes that lesson and applies it to the spirit. It is not from humans that we obtain the spirit. Human are not our defense, not our shield. Not teacher. Not systems. Not missionary societies.