Torah in Christianity

[Harel13]

'Xianity as a whole' was necessarily because... we Jews failed. Our fault, so G-d looked elsewhere.

Too bad, Xianity also failed, so G-d looked to our brother Ishmael.

The jury is still out AFAIK, but it doesn't look good from my perspective....

Isn't failure Christianity's whole shtick? Meaning failure actually means success. Why then go to Islam?

 

[Sedim Haba]

Isn't failure Christianity's whole shtick? Meaning failure actually means success. Why then go to Islam?

Oh, it worked for Esau, well enough. I mean, just look @ what they were like with 'love thy enemy'. Hahaha, just imagine what they'd be like if they didn't have THAT. But what about the rest of the Nations? Islam seems to be a positive influence by comparison, eh?

 

[Harel13]

Oh, it worked for Esau, well enough. I mean, just look @ what they were like with 'love thy enemy'. Hahaha, just imagine what they'd be like if they didn't have THAT. But what about the rest of the Nations? Islam seems to be a positive influence by comparison, eh?

I don't understand your answer. You seem to agree with my statement that Christianity failed. But my question is: If Christianity failed, then technically it was actually successful, because Christianity comes to teach that mankind is doomed to fail at every venture.

 

[Rival]

No... I wouldn't see it that way. I think you are reading into that statement.

We do know that the prophets added revelation about God. The Names of God were revealed at different times. It was an ongoing revelations.

thus: He makes the coffee 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

So he revealed the fulness of God and thus, when we read scriptures, it opens up the understanding of what God was saying in the Old Testament. It is the "AH HA" revelation so, indeed, we find the reality of Old Testament by the light given in the New.

Not invented but rather.... understood thereby

They didn't add new laws though. That's the thing.

I guess I'm always going to be dissatisfied, as all answers necessasitate some change in a law that is called perfect and says not to add it take away from it.

I just don't see how any other law is possible here, let alone one that applies to non-Jews.

 

[Kenny]

The diverse and conflicting claims of the different religions and churches concerning fulfillment are indeed 'subjective to the point that many disagree.

Side-step. We aren't talking about divers and conflicting claims.

Incoherent. Please try again.

It was pretty clear. Don't know what part you didn't quite comprehend.

Here... let me make it simpler if we need to make it simpler.

Omit the two words "What if" and then you should get the gist of it.

 

[Redemptionsong]

And therefore any time you want "day" to mean anything else it does? The text in Psalms actually says "כִּ֤י אֶ֪לֶף שָׁנִ֡ים בְּֽעֵינֶ֗יךָ כְּי֣וֹם אֶ֭תְמוֹל כִּ֣י יַֽעֲבֹ֑ר" "as a thousands years are like a yesterday that has passed" so now every yesterday is 1000 years but not a tomorrow...

Clearly not every use of the word 'day' in scripture is to be understood as a thousand years. But l'm surprised you even question this ancient interpretation, given that it must predate Christianity. Peter, as a Jew, received this teaching either from Jewish tradition or from Jesus directly.

A number of rabbis quoted in the Talmud (Tractate Sanhedrin) use this method of interpreting scripture, when discussing the coming of the Messiah.

Genesis 1 is very much a prologue to the whole of scripture. By specifying a start and finish to the present heaven and earth, one is aware that God has in his plan 'a new heaven and earth' [lsaiah 65:17]

Another passage of scripture that appears to use a day to represent a thousand years is Hosea 6:1-3.

 

[Brian2]

It's only for the Israelites though, as the text itself says; so I don't know where the idea of it being written on all human hearts comes from.

God is God of all people and all nations are blessed through Abraham and his faith. He is the father of all who have and live by faith.
Here are some passages. Of course you don't agree with the interpretation of these verses.

Isa 42:1“Here is my servant, whom I uphold,
my chosen one in whom I delight;
I will put my Spirit on him,
and he will bring justice to the nations.
2 He will not shout or cry out,
or raise his voice in the streets.
3 A bruised reed he will not break,
and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out.
In faithfulness he will bring forth justice;
4 he will not falter or be discouraged
till he establishes justice on earth.
In his teaching the islands will put their hope.”

5 This is what God the Lord says—
the Creator of the heavens, who stretches them out,
who spreads out the earth with all that springs from it,
who gives breath to its people,
and life to those who walk on it:
6 “I, the Lord, have called you in righteousness;
I will take hold of your hand.
I will keep you and will make you
to be a covenant for the people
and a light for the Gentiles,
7 to open eyes that are blind,
to free captives from prison
and to release from the dungeon those who sit in darkness.
8 “I am the Lord; that is my name!
I will not yield my glory to another
or my praise to idols.
9 See, the former things have taken place,
and new things I declare;
before they spring into being
I announce them to you.”

Psalm 2:7 I will proclaim the Lord’s decree:
He said to me, “You are my son;
today I have become your father.
8 Ask me,
and I will make the nations your inheritance,
the ends of the earth your possession.
9 You will break them with a rod of iron;
you will dash them to pieces like pottery.”
10 Therefore, you kings, be wise;
be warned, you rulers of the earth.
11 Serve the Lord with fear
and celebrate his rule with trembling.
12 Kiss his son, or he will be angry
and your way will lead to your destruction,
for his wrath can flare up in a moment.
Blessed are all who take refuge in him.

Genesis 49:10
The scepter shall not depart from Judah, nor the ruler's staff from between his feet, until tribute comes to him; and to him shall be the obedience of the peoples.

Isa 2:2 In the last days
the mountain of the Lord’s temple will be established
as the highest of the mountains;
it will be exalted above the hills,
and all nations will stream to it.
3And many peoples will come and say: “Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob. He will teach us His ways so that we may walk in His paths.” For the law will go forth from Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

Isa 49:5 And now says the LORD, who formed Me from the womb to be His Servant, to bring Jacob back to Him, that Israel might be gathered to Him—for I am honored in the sight of the LORD, and My God is My strength— 6 He says: “It is not enough for You to be My Servant, to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the protected ones of Israel. I will also make You a light for the nations, to bring My salvation to the ends of the earth.”

Psalm 118: 22The stone the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone;

 

[Rival]

God is God of all people and all nations are blessed through Abraham and his faith. He is the father of all who have and live by faith.
Here are some passages. Of course you don't agree with the interpretation of these verses.

Isa 42:1“Here is my servant, whom I uphold,
my chosen one in whom I delight;
I will put my Spirit on him,
and he will bring justice to the nations.
2 He will not shout or cry out,
or raise his voice in the streets.
3 A bruised reed he will not break,
and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out.
In faithfulness he will bring forth justice;
4 he will not falter or be discouraged
till he establishes justice on earth.
In his teaching the islands will put their hope.”

5 This is what God the Lord says—
the Creator of the heavens, who stretches them out,
who spreads out the earth with all that springs from it,
who gives breath to its people,
and life to those who walk on it:
6 “I, the Lord, have called you in righteousness;
I will take hold of your hand.
I will keep you and will make you
to be a covenant for the people
and a light for the Gentiles,
7 to open eyes that are blind,
to free captives from prison
and to release from the dungeon those who sit in darkness.
8 “I am the Lord; that is my name!
I will not yield my glory to another
or my praise to idols.
9 See, the former things have taken place,
and new things I declare;
before they spring into being
I announce them to you.”

Psalm 2:7 I will proclaim the Lord’s decree:
He said to me, “You are my son;
today I have become your father.
8 Ask me,
and I will make the nations your inheritance,
the ends of the earth your possession.
9 You will break them with a rod of iron;
you will dash them to pieces like pottery.”
10 Therefore, you kings, be wise;
be warned, you rulers of the earth.
11 Serve the Lord with fear
and celebrate his rule with trembling.
12 Kiss his son, or he will be angry
and your way will lead to your destruction,
for his wrath can flare up in a moment.
Blessed are all who take refuge in him.

Genesis 49:10
The scepter shall not depart from Judah, nor the ruler's staff from between his feet, until tribute comes to him; and to him shall be the obedience of the peoples.

Isa 2:2 In the last days
the mountain of the Lord’s temple will be established
as the highest of the mountains;
it will be exalted above the hills,
and all nations will stream to it.
3And many peoples will come and say: “Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob. He will teach us His ways so that we may walk in His paths.” For the law will go forth from Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

Isa 49:5 And now says the LORD, who formed Me from the womb to be His Servant, to bring Jacob back to Him, that Israel might be gathered to Him—for I am honored in the sight of the LORD, and My God is My strength— 6 He says: “It is not enough for You to be My Servant, to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the protected ones of Israel. I will also make You a light for the nations, to bring My salvation to the ends of the earth.”

Psalm 118: 22The stone the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone;

None of this says that non-Jews are part of the Torah covenant. None of it. They're going to Israel to worship in the Messianic Age. There's no covenant, law or anything remotely like that. There's certainly no Christianity, no cross, no baptism, no Church.

I think many Christians would be lost without Christianity. I've come to appreciate that they are in the same place I was. If Christianity isn't true, what do I do? How do I have a relationship with the God of the Torah? What's my part in this? it seems Christians believe that Christianity is their covenant with God, for the non-Jews, and without this they have no way of explaining how God relates to non-Jews.

 

[Brian2]

They didn't add new laws though. That's the thing.

I guess I'm always going to be dissatisfied, as all answers necessasitate some change in a law that is called perfect and says not to add it take away from it.

I just don't see how any other law is possible here, let alone one that applies to non-Jews.

I hear that in Judaism some say that with a new priesthood there is a change in law but even though there is a new priesthood in Jesus (Ps 110:4) it's not really a change of law since love is the summation of the Law.
With God's Spirit in a person to guide people and with people being guided by it, the law of God is fulfilled in even Gentiles who do not know what the Law says.

 

[Redemptionsong]

It isn't even clear that he is talking about the "temple." The word is "heichal" or sanctuary. There is discussion among Jewish commentators as to how much human involvement is necessary in the construction of the. Some say a lot, some say a little.

I find that the word 'hekal' can be used both of the stone temple [Ezra 3:10] and the spiritual temple [Psalm 11:4; Jonah 2:7; Habakkuk 2:20]. This is totally in accordance with reading scripture as a parable. The words can have both an earthly and spiritual application.

According to your understanding, who is Malachi referring to as 'the messenger of the covenant'?

 

[Rival]

I hear that in Judaism some say that with a new priesthood there is a change in law but even though there is a new priesthood in Jesus (Ps 110:4) it's not really a change of law since love is the summation of the Law.
With God's Spirit in a person to guide people and with people being guided by it, the law of God is fulfilled in even Gentiles who do not know what the Law says.

Oh for.

The law isn't something that has to be 'fulfilled' and then boom, magic.

It's. A. Law.

It tells you what to do and what not to do and what to do if you did what you aren't meant to do.

How hard is that for you to understand?

If someone never ever breaks the UK law, does that mean UK law no longer applies? Obviously not.

So just explain to me in plain speech what you're talking about.

 

[rosends]

Clearly not every use of the word 'day' in scripture is to be understood as a thousand years. But l'm surprised you even question this ancient interpretation, given that it must predate Christianity. Peter, as a Jew, received this teaching either from Jewish tradition or from Jesus directly.

A number of rabbis quoted in the Talmud (Tractate Sanhedrin) use this method of interpreting scripture, when discussing the coming of the Messiah.

Genesis 1 is very much a prologue to the whole of scripture. By specifying a start and finish to the present heaven and earth, one is aware that God has in his plan 'a new heaven and earth' [lsaiah 65:17]

Another passage of scripture that appears to use a day to represent a thousand years is Hosea 6:1-3.

I think you misunderstand how "ancient traditions" work. For example, Judaism has an ancient tradition that a day is a day and when the first Chrsitians spoke of Jesus' "rising" they didn't say it happened over 3000 years, but after 3 days. Explication comes about after the simpler reading, not instead of it. The many commandments which discuss the weekly cycle in terms of show bread, sacrifices etc don't speak of a time that will come in 6000 years -- they talk about a cycle of days in the text. A statement that Peter must have gotten his teaching from somewhere (in the absence of that actuial source) is not a particularly useful claim. When the rabbis discuss the computing of potential messianic eras you run into 2 problems -- one is that they are talking about a singular arrival, so any claim to Jesus' having been a messianic figure is, by defacto, invalidated. The second is that they don't see the times as being literal only after they see the text in its context as literal.

Any by the way, according to much ancient tradition, Hosea 6 doesn't mention a thousand of anything and isn't talking about years at all. "Days" there is a reference to the 2 destroyed temples and their exiles. The talmud does use it to talk about years, sort of:

Abaye said: The world will be destroyed for two thousand years, as it is stated: “After two days He will revive us” (Hosea 6:2). According to the opinion of Abaye that the destruction will be for two days, there is no connection between the future world and the day of Shabbat, which is only one day.

---------
there are a bunch of other talmudic citations about the verse, some of which talk about OUR resurrection after two days (not two thousand years) - check the Jerusalem talmud Sanhedrin, 11:6.

 

[rosends]

Unless one understands the fulfilment of the Sabbath as being rest and peace in Christ. The seventh day of God's week is not the same as the seventh day in man's week. Taking each day as a thousand years, God's Sabbath is yet to come.

Do priests rest on the Sabbath?

What do you mean "rest"?
In temple days there was still stuff to be done on the sabbath. But if you start with a flawed understanding of the word melacha, then you will draw weird conclusions. The seventh day of each week is the seventh day -- it was back then, and straight through Jewish law and experience.

 

[rosends]

I find that the word 'hekal' can be used both of the stone temple [Ezra 3:10] and the spiritual temple [Psalm 11:4; Jonah 2:7; Habakkuk 2:20]. This is totally in accordance with reading scripture as a parable. The words can have both an earthly and spiritual application.

According to your understanding, who is Malachi referring to as 'the messenger of the covenant'?

It isn't my opinion that matters -- some say it refers to Elijah (cf the Malbim והוא המלאך שיכניס את העולם בברית התורה והאמונה ובברית בינם לבין אלהים, וחז"ל פי' שזה אליהו מלאך הברית שיקדים לבא להשיב רבים מעון)

 

[Brian2]

None of this says that non-Jews are part of the Torah covenant. None of it. They're going to Israel to worship in the Messianic Age. There's no covenant, law or anything remotely like that. There's certainly no Christianity, no cross, no baptism, no Church.

I think many Christians would be lost without Christianity. I've come to appreciate that they are in the same place I was. If Christianity isn't true, what do I do? How do I have a relationship with the God of the Torah? What's my part in this? it seems Christians believe that Christianity is their covenant with God, for the non-Jews, and without this they have no way of explaining how God relates to non-Jews.

It certainly is not spelled out with Church, baptism, cross etc but we Christians also see the story of Jesus as being true and Isa 53 as showing Jesus taking our sins on Himself and Ps 22 as showing what happened to Jesus when crucified and Zech 12:10 as showing the Jews mourning over the Messiah they rejected, the one they pierced. We see the rejection and killing of the Messiah in Ps 89.
The dots are easily joined but it is a matter of seeing the Jesus story as true and seeing the direction of the covenant to the Gentiles as not only a plan of God but also because of the rejection of Jesus by most Jews.
The Gentile Christians through faith become part of the chosen of God.

 

[shunyadragon]

Malachi 3:1. 'Behold, l will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts'.

Do you think Malachi is talking of the temple built with hands, or the temple build without hands?

I believe traditionally in Judaism the messengers are succession of Kings to rule the Hebrews and the temple is a real temple.

 

[shunyadragon]

Side-step. We aren't talking about divers and conflicting claims.

The reality is diverse conflicting 'subjective' beliefs in the fulfillment of prophecy.

It was pretty clear. Don't know what part you didn't quite comprehend.

Here... let me make it simpler if we need to make it simpler.

Omit the two words "What if" and then you should get the gist of it.

Does not change the incomprehensibility of the post response.

 

[Rival]

I've come to the conclusion that I will never understand Christianity.

Judaism gives way more straightfoward answers.

 

[Brian2]

Oh for.

The law isn't something that has to be 'fulfilled' and then boom, magic.

It's. A. Law.

It tells you what to do and what not to do and what to do if you did what you aren't meant to do.

How hard is that for you to understand?

If someone never ever breaks the UK law, does that mean UK law no longer applies? Obviously not.

So just explain to me in plain speech what you're talking about.

Jesus fulfilled the law and the prophets to me means that Jesus was sent to fulfil the prophecies about Him in the Hebrew scriptures and to be rejected (Ps 89) and die on the cross (Ps 22) to take on Himself the punishment for our sins (Isa 53) and bring the New Covenant ratified by His blood and resurrection by God.
The Spirit of God is given to those who have faith in Jesus and His name will be YHWH is our righteousness.
All believers become priests offering the sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving to God for the salvation that He has given, a salvation based on faith and not on the keeping of the Law. The written Law is temporary and is replaced by the Spirit in the believer who put's God's law in our heart.

Jeremiah 33:14 “‘The days are coming,’ declares the Lord, ‘when I will fulfill the good promise I made to the people of Israel and Judah.
15 “‘In those days and at that time
I will make a righteous Branch sprout from David’s line;
he will do what is just and right in the land.
16 In those days Judah will be saved
and Jerusalem will live in safety.
This is the name by which it will be called:
The Lord Our Righteous Savior.’
17 For this is what the Lord says: ‘David will never fail to have a man to sit on the throne of Israel, 18 nor will the Levitical priests ever fail to have a man to stand before me continually to offer burnt offerings, to burn grain offerings and to present sacrifices.’”
19 The word of the Lord came to Jeremiah: 20 “This is what the Lord says: ‘If you can break my covenant with the day and my covenant with the night, so that day and night no longer come at their appointed time, 21 then my covenant with David my servant—and my covenant with the Levites who are priests ministering before me—can be broken and David will no longer have a descendant to reign on his throne. 22 I will make the descendants of David my servant and the Levites who minister before me as countless as the stars in the sky and as measureless as the sand on the seashore.’”

 

[Rival]

17 For this is what the Lord says: ‘David will never fail to have a man to sit on the throne of Israel, 18 nor will the Levitical priests ever fail to have a man to stand before me continually to offer burnt offerings, to burn grain offerings and to present sacrifices.’”

Continuous burnt offerings, grain offerings, and sacrifices.