Torath Mosesh Jews and Three Seemingly Fantastical Events in Genesis

[David Davidovich]

Okay. Shortest version I can come up with.

1. According to Torath Mosheh Jews Adam was extremely intelligent. The issue was that he had no experience outside of having everything he needed provided by Hashem.
   • There are some who state that Adam wanted to experience a world where he would have to work for what got.
   • The external yetzer hara challenged this aspect of Hhawwah and Adam the same way that having the yetzer hara being internal provides a challenge to the knowledge that a particular path is better than the alternative.

That kind of makes my head spin.

1. In the English translations they make it seem like Hashem was asking Adam "Where are you, as if Hashem didn't know where Adam was." Yet, the Hebrew text makes it clear that Hashem was asking Adam, "Do you know where you are?" I.e. do you know where your choices/decisions have taken you.
   • Again, the idea that a Jew may decide they want to distance themselves from Hashem yet that decision has some costs in reality attached to it. A good example, there was a rabbi who told a story about a Jew he knew who became a xian. The xian Jew was still trying to raise his children as if they were part of the Jewish people while being xian. The xian Jew explained to the rabbi how he was very sad that all of his children were marrying people who were not Jewish. The rabbi responded, "How can you be sad about that? What were you expecting to happen? Your choices created this scenario for your children and they are only doing what is natural in the situation you raised them in."
   • I have attached an article I once wrote for the Institute of Jewish Ideas and Ideals on similar matters.
   • You may also want to look up a book called, "The Lonely Man of Faith" by Rabbi Solovetchich

I don't see the attached article.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

That kind of makes my head spin.

I warned you. There are thousands of years of Israelis/Jews discussing this topic. Even the way it is written in Hebrew lends itself to some interesting discussion. You have to remember that the Hebrew Torah was not written in a way that someone who doesn't have a background in ancient Hebrew and with Oral Torah would understand it. Thus, Torath Mosheh Jews are suited to it and it was the Torath Mosheh Jews the Torah was written for.

What I can say is that most people reading a translation of the Torah are getting like formula milk. I.e. it is far seperated from the type of food that grown adults eat.

I don't see the attached article.

Sorry, I have attached it now.

 

[David Davidovich]

I warned you. There are thousands of years of Israelis/Jews discussing this topic. Even the way it is written in Hebrew lends itself to some interesting discussion. You have to remember that the Hebrew Torah was not written in a way that someone who doesn't have a background in ancient Hebrew and with Oral Torah would understand it. Thus, Torath Mosheh Jews are suited to it and it was the Torath Mosheh Jews the Torah was written for.

What I can say is that most people reading a translation of the Torah are getting like formula milk. I.e. it is far seperated from the type of food that grown adults eat.

Well, it's interesting that when someone might criticize a Christian group or a Christian doctrine, they may mention something from the Hebrew text (and I know that I myself have done that before). Because the popular belief is that God abandoned the Jewish people and formed a covenant with and gave his guidance and holy spirit to Christians and that now the Hebrew text in turn now belongs to Christians and that they are now the ones who understand what is in the Hebrew text and that the Jews really don't have any more insight or any more say so about the Hebrew text.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Well, it's interesting that when someone might criticize a Christian group or a Christian doctrine, they may mention something from the Hebrew text (and I know that I myself have done that before). Because the popular belief is that God abandoned the Jewish people and formed a covenant with and gave his guidance and holy spirit to Christians and that now the Hebrew text in turn now belongs to Christians and that they are now the ones who understand what is in the Hebrew text and that the Jews really don't have any more insight or any more say so about the Hebrew text.

The funny thing about this idea is that there are so many Christian missionaries who have made it their mission to convert Jews all because they see Jews as the key to the return of jesus. Yet, if this claim were true christianity they would be able to go on their merry way for the last 2,000 years with no concern about us Jews.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Well, first of all, when in Genesis 11:5, Hashem said, "Let us, then, go down and confound their speech there, so that they shall not understand one another’s speech,” therefore, who are "us"?

The (מלאכים) "mak'achim" or "powers of reality" that Hashem established. According to Torath Mosheh sources the Torah is written in the language humanity, so that Torath Mosheh Jews would understand it.

And secondly in verse 6, "יהוה said, 'If, as one people with one language for all, this is how they have begun to act, then nothing that they may propose to do will be out of their reach.'" Therefore, what type of things did Hashem think that they may propose to do, which wouldn't be out of their reach?

The Oral Torah sources on this state the following:

1. There were three groups with different focuses that were able to unite for the building of the tower.
2. The building of the tower was not what you see in "western christianized" views of a tower going into the cloads. Instead, a tower that was being used to unite various factions. The height had nothing to do with it.
3. One group, for example, was looking to start wars and conflict. Another group was interested in doing Avodah Zara. Another group was looking to exert their own control over the world in a warped way.
4. All three of these groups were able to unite under a unified goal.

In terms of why Hashem caused their society to crumble, due to how they [the three groups] built it, was because of the damage they were doing/and would continue to do to themselves and the planet. I.e. if they had continued there would have been no way for humanity to eventually survive and definately not produce those would eventually keep Torah and the 7 mitzvoth/Noachide Laws.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Plus, I always wondered if the workers along with their wives' languages were jumbled (even though the narrative doesn't specific that) and then as a couple, they left Babylon and spread out to other parts of the world, and that couple started a new city and then new nations (like Cain and his wife), or if groups of people were struck with having a various foreign language and those groups of people left Babylon and created new cities and new nations (e.g. maybe 10 people were struck with a certain language and 10 other people were struck with a certain language, etc.), or if individuals who were working of the tower had been struck with having different languages (as the narrative seems to be saying) and those individuals apparently took their wives and families along with them and spread out into various part of the earth (and apparently, taught their wives and their children their new languages). Because as written, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

There are Torath Mosheh Jewish sources that state that what was affected, at first, was not their language but there ability to unite themselves w/o being in conflict with each other. As mentioned before there were three major groups, according to some sources, and these three main groups were able to put their differences aside to work towards a common goal. That common goal would have led to mass destruction, and at that point had already caused some. Thus, their focus was diverted in a way where they started to come into conflict with each other when they were allowed to really see the differences for what they were. Over time their differences led to some of them being dispersed while others went into conflict with each other and started wars. Another group went into created more primitive societies, etc. This is a collection of the various views.

 

[David Davidovich]

The funny thing about this idea is that there are so many Christian missionaries who have made it their mission to convert Jews all because they see Jews as the key to the return of jesus. Yet, if this claim were true christianity they would be able to go on their merry way for the last 2,000 years with no concern about us Jews.

So, I have a question. Do Torath Mosheh Jews do or don't believe that the establishment of the nation of Israel in 1948 is a fulfillment of scriptural text? Because there are a lot of Christian groups who do believe that, but not all.

 

[rosends]

I don't think that modern (Zionistic) Jews see the state as a specific fulfillment of a clear, black letter versed prophecy. Instead, it is seen as a sign, a mile marker on a road moving us closer to a messianic era.

 

[David Davidovich]

David Davidovich said: ↑
Well, first of all, when in Genesis 11:5, Hashem said, "Let us, then, go down and confound their speech there, so that they shall not understand one another’s speech,” therefore, who are "us"?

The (מלאכים) "mak'achim" or "powers of reality" that Hashem established. According to Torath Mosheh sources the Torah is written in the language humanity, so that Torath Mosheh Jews would understand it.

Sorry, but I don't understand your answer.

The Oral Torah sources on this state the following:

1. There were three groups with different focuses that were able to unite for the building of the tower.
2. The building of the tower was not what you see in "western christianized" views of a tower going into the cloads. Instead, a tower that was being used to unite various factions. The height had nothing to do with it.
3. One group, for example, was looking to start wars and conflict. Another group was interested in doing Avodah Zara. Another group was looking to exert their own control over the world in a warped way.
4. All three of these groups were able to unite under a unified goal.

Okay thanks.

In terms of why Hashem caused their society to crumble, due to how they [the three groups] built it, was because of the damage they were doing/and would continue to do to themselves and the planet. I.e. if they had continued there would have been no way for humanity to eventually survive and definately not produce those would eventually keep Torah and the 7 mitzvoth/Noachide Laws.

Okay, thanks.

 

[David Davidovich]

I don't think that modern (Zionistic) Jews see the state as a specific fulfillment of a clear, black letter versed prophecy. Instead, it is seen as a sign, a mile marker on a road moving us closer to a messianic era.

Oh, okay. That's interesting.

 

[David Davidovich]

There are Torath Mosheh Jewish sources that state that what was affected, at first, was not their language but there ability to unite themselves w/o being in conflict with each other. As mentioned before there were three major groups, according to some sources, and these three main groups were able to put their differences aside to work towards a common goal. That common goal would have led to mass destruction, and at that point had already caused some. Thus, their focus was diverted in a way where they started to come into conflict with each other when they were allowed to really see the differences for what they were. Over time their differences led to some of them being dispersed while others went into conflict with each other and started wars.

So, then are you saying that Torath Mosheh Jews don't view those verses as a literal jumbling of the languages?

Another group went into created more primitive societies, etc. This is a collection of the various views.

What do you mean by created more primitive societies? And I understand what those words mean, but why would some groups create more primitive societies? Plus, I've always wondered why and how if mankind was dispersed from a more sophisticated culture in Babylon, then why do very primitive societies exist?

 

[David Davidovich]

Taking this topic by topic as always I have video on this.

I've watched about half of this video and plan to watch the rest of it, and even though I thought what I've watched so far was interesting, the questions arose in my mind (and which may be a topic of another thread)... was: Well, why did Hashem create us and what was the point? Especially, with how things turned out to be so disastrous on Hashem's first try at creating human beings. Also, why so much space? What's the purpose of the universe being so unfathomably large and is supposed to be continually expanding too?

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Well, why did Hashem create us and what was the point?

Simple Torath Mosheh answer: in order to have something in the universe that has intelligence and free will. Thus, because of those two things Hashem can provide the good of reality to such an organism.

Especially, with how things turned out to be so disastrous on Hashem's first try at creating human beings.

We Torath Mosheh Jews don't see it as a "disaster." We see it has the fact that human beings were created to be able to do what most species can't do for themselves. I.e. choose to intellectually and emotionally evolve ourselves. Adam and Hawwah's choice wasn't a disaster. It simply changed the circumstances or how they and we all deal with reality. Hashem already had in place the ability for this choice to be corrected. So, we would instead say that there is no disaster - there are instead always opportunities to evolve and improve.

Also, why so much space? What's the purpose of the universe being so unfathomably large and is supposed to be continually expanding too?

A few reasons:

1. For the benefit of all mankind throughout all generations.
   • One generation looks in the night sky and see thousands of lights and is in awe. Another generation builds a device that allows them to see millions of stars, planets, etc., while another generation develops the tech. to actually travel through some of it. Every generation is going to be less impressed by what the previous generation knew/or didn’t know. So,
2. If the reality/universe is so expansive and so complex/vast it would mean that whatever is the source that caused it/created is way more complex than something it created.
3. Also, based on number 3 it would also show that the Source is not human in any way, and operates on a level of logic/intelligence that is not human and can’t even compared to anything human since a human, using human logic, has not been able to create something at the level of a solar system let alone a universe.
4. There processes that happened in far off places in the universe millions or billions of years ago that benefit modern humans in every generation. I.e. a solar flare in a distance galaxy that took place millions has effects on parts of space, including our planet, that benefit the ability for there to be life here.
5. The Biosphere 2 project showed how little is really understand about how our planet even works. This is after all the generations of humans who have been living on this planet. Thus, there are huge gaps in our understanding of how the universe works when we have barely personally experienced with is in our own solar system.
6. The complexity of the universe also provides a lot of good jobs to people in various disciplines of math and science.
7. If used correctly, our intelligence would tell us that focusing on learning about the natural world/universe and how it works is a better endeavor than most of the non-sense that people in history have focused in on such as wars, dancing with the stars, poisoning the environment, etc.

The following video I think addresses the point of what we are in awe of now compared to what previous generations were in awe of.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

So, then are you saying that Torath Mosheh Jews don't view those verses as a literal jumbling of the languages?

Some sources talk about it being partially linquistic and partially their focus. Kind of like saying, how do dielects develop among people who come from the same locations? See the following video. It does a good job of showing how even languages that have similar names have differences that developed due to cultural norms.

What do you mean by created more primitive societies? And I understand what those words mean, but why would some groups create more primitive societies? Plus, I've always wondered why and how if mankind was dispersed from a more sophisticated culture in Babylon, then why do very primitive societies exist?

There is some open space for debate on what the midrash that discusses this means. There is an idea that the Rambam wrote about that a culture that has no information passed on through the generations, no philosophy, no knowledge, etc. it is "as if" they are no different than the animals/primates. On another level it could simply mean that their focus on war was so destructive that they essentially had no way to be advanced and someone, back then, may have no considered them human - kind of like saying, you may as well call them chimps because there isn't much difference in their actions.

The major issue here is that the Rambam once wrote that various elements of the Torah would be better understand as humans advance in research of science, histroy, and archeology.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

So, I have a question. Do Torath Mosheh Jews do or don't believe that the establishment of the nation of Israel in 1948 is a fulfillment of scriptural text?

No, no, and a very minor - partially.

What I mean is that there is particular part of the Tanakh that talks about there being Jews in the land of Israel before the return to Torath Mosheh nation. I.e. before a Davidic King takes place again. I did a couple of videos on this, mainly because a Hebrew Israelite on RF challnged me on this.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Sorry, but I don't understand your answer.

The written Torah using language that a Jew in any generation can relate to w/o it all be some over the top metaphysical babble.

Also, because of non-Jewish translation there are people who autmatically hear the word "angel" in English and think the of the following.

The above is not what Torath Mosheh Jewish sources state a (מלאך) mal'akh is.

For example, in Torath Mosheh the ability for their to be modern weather can be considered a (מלאך) mal'akh. The ability for their to be bad weather can be considered a (מלאך) mal'akh. Neither of these possibilities have free will and are not European people with wings. Yet, a Torah based prophet in a state of prophecy may see something that in his/her mind is represented as something the prophet recognizes.

 

[David Davidovich]

No, no, and a very minor - partially.

What I mean is that there is particular part of the Tanakh that talks about there being Jews in the land of Israel before the return to Torath Mosheh nation. I.e. before a Davidic King takes place again. I did a couple of videos on this, mainly because a Hebrew Israelite on RF challnged me on this.

Are there any Torath Mosheh Jews or Orthodox Jews alive today who you've ever thought of who might be an example of who could fill the role of Moshiach?

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Are there any Torath Mosheh Jews or Orthodox Jews alive today who you've ever thought of who might be an example of who could fill the role of Moshiach?

I will be honest with you. We don't go there. There is no need to place those kinds of expectations on someone if they are not actually accomplishing the work. I.e. it would take a lot before anyone could be substationally even be able to be called "potential."

The first thing would be that they have been proven to be from Beith Dawith (House of David). There are a number of Jews who have family histories of such, but it would have to be proven by way of a Mosaic Court/Sanhedrin and we don't have one of those right now.

 

[David Davidovich]

Simple Torath Mosheh answer: in order to have something in the universe that has intelligence and free will. Thus, because of those two things Hashem can provide the good of reality to such an organism.

I see. Also, from what I understand, Jews don't define angels as beings that have free will. Although, I will admit that that isn't easy to understand if you come from a Christian background and based on certain verses in the Hebrew text that mention the activity and the behavior of angels.

We Torath Mosheh Jews don't see it as a "disaster." We see it has the fact that human beings were created to be able to do what most species can't do for themselves. I.e. choose to intellectually and emotionally evolve ourselves. Adam and Hawwah's choice wasn't a disaster.

I see. So, are you saying that Adam and Hawwah's sin was a form of intellectual evolution?

It simply changed the circumstances or how they and we all deal with reality. Hashem already had in place the ability for this choice to be corrected. So, we would instead say that there is no disaster - there are instead always opportunities to evolve and improve.

I hear what you're saying, however, I'm not sure if I agree with that.

David Davidovich said: ↑
Also, why so much space? What's the purpose of the universe being so unfathomably large and is supposed to be continually expanding too?

A few reasons:

1. For the benefit of all mankind throughout all generations.
   • One generation looks in the night sky and see thousands of lights and is in awe. Another generation builds a device that allows them to see millions of stars, planets, etc., while another generation develops the tech. to actually travel through some of it. Every generation is going to be less impressed by what the previous generation knew/or didn’t know. So,

I see. So, based on that, how far could man possibly evolve? Because with that kind of potential, it almost implies that one day humans could evolve to the point of being like God. However, that seems to defeat the purpose of creating a species whose origins are from the ground of the earth.

1. [*]If the reality/universe is so expansive and so complex/vast it would mean that whatever is the source that caused it/created is way more complex than something it created.

   Question: What was reality before Hashem became a creator God?

   [*]Also, based on number 3 it would also show that the Source is not human in any way, and operates on a level of logic/intelligence that is not human and can’t even compared to anything human since a human, using human logic, has not been able to create something at the level of a solar system let alone a universe.

   Well, that almost sounds Chrisitan, but I know better than that, therefore, could you please explain to me the significance of the number 3?

   [*]There processes that happened in far off places in the universe millions or billions of years ago that benefit modern humans in every generation. I.e. a solar flare in a distance galaxy that took place millions has effects on parts of space, including our planet, that benefit the ability for there to be life here.

   I see.

   [*]The Biosphere 2 project showed how little is really understand about how our planet even works. This is after all the generations of humans who have been living on this planet. Thus, there are huge gaps in our understanding of how the universe works when we have barely personally experienced with is in our own solar system.

   But isn't saying something like that based on the logical fallacy of Appeal To Ignorance?

   [*]The complexity of the universe also provides a lot of good jobs to people in various disciplines of math and science.

   Hmmm.

   [*]If used correctly, our intelligence would tell us that focusing on learning about the natural world/universe and how it works is a better endeavor than most of the non-sense that people in history have focused in on such as wars, dancing with the stars, poisoning the environment, etc.

   Well, I can't argue with that.

The following video I think addresses the point of what we are in awe of now compared to what previous generations were in awe of.

I haven't watched the video yet.

 

[David Davidovich]

David Davidovich said: ↑
So, I have a question. Do Torath Mosheh Jews do or don't believe that the establishment of the nation of Israel in 1948 is a fulfillment of scriptural text?

No, no, and a very minor - partially.

What I mean is that there is particular part of the Tanakh that talks about there being Jews in the land of Israel before the return to Torath Mosheh nation. I.e. before a Davidic King takes place again. I did a couple of videos on this, mainly because a Hebrew Israelite on RF challnged me on this.

I have a controversial question: What do you think about the violence upon and the displacement of the Palestinian people who lived in the Southern Levant area?