Torath Mosesh Jews and Three Seemingly Fantastical Events in Genesis

[Ehav4Ever]

I see. Also, from what I understand, Jews don't define angels as beings that have free will. Although, I will admit that that isn't easy to understand if you come from a Christian background and based on certain verses in the Hebrew text that mention the activity and the behavior of angels.

If you remove the foreign word "angel" and accept that it is not a Jewish word and it is not native to either the Hebrew language or to the Hebrew text it may be easier to remove the western/christian image.

It would be like saying that thermodynmics has free will. Of course we all it does not but we know that whatever the word describes is a fundamental part of how the universe works. We also know that a good understading of it also helps us manage ourselves in the reality. Further, we know that human beings, in our view of reality, interact with this and other areas of science we approach it from a human perspective. That is one way of looking at, but again you have to accept that the word and concept of an "angel" you learned did not come from us Jews.

I see. So, are you saying that Adam and Hawwah's sin was a form of intellectual evolution?

No, I would remove the word "sin" and replace it with "they missed the mark." They had a good sitaution going, and possibility to be upgraded on the spot, but they exerted their free will and chose an opposite path to it. Yet, Hashem had already had an option in place in case this choice was made. That option was the Torah that was given at Mount Sinai.

I hear what you're saying, however, I'm not sure if I agree with that.

Again, you have to remember. Torath Mosheh Jews see opportunities not disaster. We wouldn't have survived this long if we didn't.

I see. So, based on that, how far could man possibly evolve?

I personally would use the world "evolve" that is a different aspect of reality. I would instead say that as individuals the nations of the world can attain the good that Hashem placed into reality. For the nation of Israel, this is something that comes as a nation. Again, if you want to say "evovlve" then evolve to a situation where most humans have the ability to focus on the devolopments that really matter and bring about the good that was created into the system.

Kind of like when someone builds an earthship out of recycled materials rather than a house out of wastefull materials. Maybe even the use of nuclear power purely for energy purposes and not for the sake of war and not in a wasteful way.

Because with that kind of potential, it almost implies that one day humans could evolve to the point of being like God.

God, linquistically, is not a Jewish word. So, whether or not a human can be become a gott, the German origin of the English word god is dependant on what the old Germans meant. In terms of the Torah humans are already able to be powerful and strong, this is the meaning of the Hebrew words (אל - אלוה - אלהים). The difference is that no human can ever be equal to Source of reality. This is of course becasue humans are so small in the space of the reality that even exist in and because we didn't create the reality nor were created with the ability to create universes and such. What we can create is certain elements of our own reality, by way of our choices. Thus, one of the ideas of the statement (נעשה אדם) "let us make man" is that Hashem makes every human being 50% and it is up to said human being to make the other 50% of themselves.

However, that seems to defeat the purpose of creating a species whose origins are from the ground of the earth.

Again, remembering that Hebrew is not English, there are Jewish sources that say that it was not the "ground" of the "earth" as you may be accostumed to hearing but something more akin to this.

Especially since (אדמה) is known to mean way more than dirt from planet earth. Something more akin to this.

Question: What was reality before Hashem became a creator God?

Again, taking away the word "god" out of the picture since it carries a lot of non-Jewish stuff with it. What was reality like before Hashem created the reality we exist in. We are Torath Mosheh Jews are clear. No one living in our reality can answer that, just as much as no one can answer what does it feel and look like to enter into a black hole or to experience before, after, and two weeks later a super nova from right in front of the event.

Well, that almost sounds Chrisitan, but I know better than that, therefore, could you please explain to me the significance of the number 3?

It allows you to answer the questions of what is 2+1 and also 4-1. Literally, there is no Torath Mosheh requirement for any significance to the number 3. You may find some writers who use it to build a lesson for something but at the end of the day it is good for math.

I see. But isn't saying something like that based on the logical fallacy of Appeal To Ignorance?

No, it means that from a Torath Mosheh Jewish perspective one of he goals of being human is to investigate and try to understand what we can about how the reality we exist in works. It is one of the reasons that one can't even do a large number of Torath Mitzvoth w/o a scientific background. It is also one of the reasons that a large number of Torath Mosheh rabbis in our history were scientists.

One of the reasons that there are gaps exists is sometimes not having the right focus and not being honest with what we don't know. They video may help.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

I have a controversial question: What do you think about the violence upon and the displacement of the Palestinian people who lived in the Southern Levant area?

I think this this video is important to view first.


Palestinians of Jewish Origin higher resolution

 

[David Davidovich]

I think that I may have asked this somewhere, although, this seems to be the likely thread for it, even though I couldn't find this question but: If Hashem doesn't exist in time, then how could he have created something like the universe, which does exist in time? Because that seems to imply that at one time, Hashem decided to create the physical universe.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

I think that I may have asked this somewhere, although, this seems to be the likely thread for it, even though I couldn't find this question but: If Hashem doesn't exist in time, then how could he have created something like the universe, which does exist in time? Because that seems to imply that at one time, Hashem decided to create the physical universe.

Because time is dependent on the existance of what is called in ancient Hebrew (חומר) or in what is called in English matter. Matter is a substance made up of various types of particles that occupies physical space and has inertia. According to the principles of modern physics, the various types of particles each have a specific mass and size. The most familiar examples of material particles are the electron, the proton and the neutron.

According to Torath Mosheh Hashem is the creator of (חומר) or matter and is not made up of matter. If Hashem is not made up of (חומר) or matter and there was no matter at a certain point, until Hashem created it, then how does measure past, present, or future?

For example, all of the below are discussed in various Torath Mosheh Jewish texts from the last 3,000+ years:

1. Historically, humans use the sun and the moon as measures of the passage of time. Both of these are matter.
   • If there is no sun and moon how do you determine the existance, and passage of seconds, minutes, hours, days, weeks, and years?
2. Humans, plant-life, and animal life are made up of matter. Even w/o a sun or moon humans, plant-life, and animal life go through changes that mark past, present, and future due to changes that take place in our physical bodies. I.e. something is born, goes through a process of physical change through a specific cycle, and then eventually physically breaks down.
   • Thus, one can mark a particular type of passage of time from past, present, to future.
   • Time is an aspect of reality from the perspective of us since we are made up of matter that has externally instituted limits and also changes as a part of a physical process.
3. Hashem is not made up of matter, Hashem doesn't change, and Hashem has no physical process that binds Hashem since Hashem is the source/creator of such processes.
   • Thus Hashem created matter and the ability for there to be time.
     
   • Hashem is not subject to something Hashem created.
   • Hashem is also not externally limited. I.e. nothing externally limits Hashem or Hashem's ability to do something. Hashem may self-limit but not because something external to Hashem created or causes said limit.

The following video may help a bit.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Because that seems to imply that at one time, Hashem decided to create the physical universe.

From our perspective yes, since we are externally influenced by time and the passage of time. Hashem is not externally influenced by time. Withing the external influences I mentioned before there is no way to determine the passage fo time.

 

[David Davidovich]

Because time is dependent on the existance of what is called in ancient Hebrew (חומר) or in what is called in English matter. Matter is a substance made up of various types of particles that occupies physical space and has inertia. According to the principles of modern physics, the various types of particles each have a specific mass and size. The most familiar examples of material particles are the electron, the proton and the neutron.

According to Torath Mosheh Hashem is the creator of (חומר) or matter and is not made up of matter. If Hashem is not made up of (חומר) or matter and there was no matter at a certain point, until Hashem created it, then how does measure past, present, or future?

For example, all of the below are discussed in various Torath Mosheh Jewish texts from the last 3,000+ years:

1. Historically, humans use the sun and the moon as measures of the passage of time. Both of these are matter.
   • If there is no sun and moon how do you determine the existance, and passage of seconds, minutes, hours, days, weeks, and years?
2. Humans, plant-life, and animal life are made up of matter. Even w/o a sun or moon humans, plant-life, and animal life go through changes that mark past, present, and future due to changes that take place in our physical bodies. I.e. something is born, goes through a process of physical change through a specific cycle, and then eventually physically breaks down.
   • Thus, one can mark a particular type of passage of time from past, present, to future.
   • Time is an aspect of reality from the perspective of us since we are made up of matter that has externally instituted limits and also changes as a part of a physical process.
3. Hashem is not made up of matter, Hashem doesn't change, and Hashem has no physical process that binds Hashem since Hashem is the source/creator of such processes.
   • Thus Hashem created matter and the ability for there to be time.
     
   • Hashem is not subject to something Hashem created.
   • Hashem is also not externally limited. I.e. nothing externally limits Hashem or Hashem's ability to do something. Hashem may self-limit but not because something external to Hashem created or causes said limit.

Well, I don't know what the Hebrew text actually says, but according to these renderings of Isaiah 31:3, it seems to imply that earthly things are not spirit, which conversely implies that God is:

Young's Literal Translation
And the Egyptians are men, and not God, And their horses are flesh, and not spirit [DD: i.e. engery], And Jehovah stretcheth out His hand, And stumbled hath the helper, And fallen hath the helped one, And together all of them are consumed.

Therefore, if God himself is spirit or a spirit, then according to the Einsteinian equation of E = mc2, wouldn't that mean that God himself is a form of matter?

E = mc2. It's the world's most famous equation, but what does it really mean? "Energy equals mass times the speed of light squared." On the most basic level, the equation says that energy and mass (matter) are interchangeable; they are different forms of the same thing. Under the right conditions, energy can become mass, and vice versa. We humans don't see them that way—how can a beam of light and a walnut, say, be different forms of the same thing?—but Nature does.

click here: NOVA | Einstein's Big Idea | Library Resource Kit: E = mc2 Explained | PBS

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Well, I don't know what the Hebrew text actually says,

Conversely, I don't hold by what someone renders in an English translation. I hold only by the written and oral Torah.

Therefore, if God himself is spirit or a spirit, then according to the Einsteinian equation of E = mc2, wouldn't that mean that God himself is a form of matter?

Again, I can't comment on the concept of a "god" and "spirit" since those are westernized terms and foreign to the Hebrew text.

Also, the mass-energy equivalence is not applicable to Hashem, as described before, for the following reasons as descred about the mass-energy equivalence. In ancient Hebrew even energy falls under the concept of a created thing as described by the terms (אור) or even (חומר).

 

[David Davidovich]

Conversely, I don't hold by what someone renders in an English translation. I hold only by the written and oral Torah.

So, what is Isaiah 31:3 saying in the Hebrew text?

Again, I can't comment on the concept of a "god" and "spirit" since those are westernized terms and foreign to the Hebrew text.

Also, the mass-energy equivalence is not applicable to Hashem, as described before, for the following reasons as descred about the mass-energy equivalence. In ancient Hebrew even energy falls under the concept of a created thing as described by the terms (אור) or even (חומר).

So, what does the Hebrew text say that Hashem is? Also, what is (אור) and (חומר)? Sorry, but I don't speak Hebrew.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

So, what does the Hebrew text say that Hashem is?

The Hebrew text makes it clear that Hashem is beyond human comprehension. When Mosheh ben-Amram asked Hashem a similar question he was informed and shown that no person can understand Hashem in that way and be alive. The limiations of the physical human existance is to great to try to and understand the Source of all reality. For example, imagine asking someone to sumerize all historical, biological, and chemical events from the last 3,000 years in full detail. What human being has the ability to do all three of those for that time frame? What human being has the lifespan to describe all of those things in full detail? Now imagine expanding that out to 3,000,000 years.

At some point there isn't enough bandwidth, even in a computer, for such a thing.

So, what the Hebrew Tanakh makes clear is that if Mosheh ben-Amram was able to understand that he, having the closest line of communication with Hashem which won't be repeated for anyone - including the future Davidic King of Israel, was able to understand his limitations then the rest of us have to be aware of out own. There is a Midrash that states, as an example, that Mosheh ben-Amram saw Hashem through one/foggy/unclear/smeered lense while the other prophets of Israel saw Hashem through 15 or more such lenses. Moshen ben-Amram was the only one to recognize the limition of his one/foggy/unclear/smeered lense where the other prophets of Israel were not able to able recognize their 15 or more such lenses.

Thus, we often don't speak of Hashem is - because that is beyond us - we can speak of what Hashem is not though.

In the positive direction, we would say that Hashem is the Source of all reality and creation. Further, that Hashem gave the Torah as a national revelation to the Israel people at Mount Sinai. There are some others but I think you get the picture.

Also, what is (אור) and (חומר)? Sorry, but I don't speak Hebrew.

(אור) - Can mean light or types of energy. Also, considered to be a type of (חומר). () can be matter, energy, etc. All aspects of the physical reality/universe. For example, currently Dark Matter is considered be a theoritical thing since at the moment no one has been able to measure it or quantify it, yet if they were it is a type of (חומר) and maybe would be a type of (אור). Yet, this is all using human termology to define an element of reality that we either do not understand, partially understand, or have the potential to fully understand.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

So, what is Isaiah 31:3 saying in the Hebrew text?

In order to understand that you have to read starting at Yeshayahu (the real name of Isaiah) 30 then 31:1-2 before you get to verse 3.

The blue bracketed section (verses 1-2) laments those Israels who would put their trust in the military might of Egypt because in reality Hashem supports the Torah based Israeli people.

The red bracketed area (of verse 3) denotes that Egypt's [national might] is based on humanity and has no power beyond that.

The green bracketed area (of verse 3) denotes how the military might of Egypt only extends to the physical world and not beyond it.

The light blue bracketed area (end of verse 3) area denotes that since all of reality/creation is in the hands of Hashem it only makes sense for the Israelis in question to place their reliance and trust in Hashem, by doing the Torah that Hashem which instructs Torath Mosheh Israelis how to interact with the reality we are found in.

 

[David Davidovich]

The Hebrew text makes it clear that Hashem is beyond human comprehension. When Mosheh ben-Amram asked Hashem a similar question he was informed and shown that no person can understand Hashem in that way and be alive. The limiations of the physical human existance is to great to try to and understand the Source of all reality. For example, imagine asking someone to sumerize all historical, biological, and chemical events from the last 3,000 years in full detail. What human being has the ability to do all three of those for that time frame? What human being has the lifespan to describe all of those things in full detail? Now imagine expanding that out to 3,000,000 years.

At some point there isn't enough bandwidth, even in a computer, for such a thing.

So, what the Hebrew Tanakh makes clear is that if Mosheh ben-Amram was able to understand that he, having the closest line of communication with Hashem which won't be repeated for anyone - including the future Davidic King of Israel, was able to understand his limitations then the rest of us have to be aware of out own. There is a Midrash that states, as an example, that Mosheh ben-Amram saw Hashem through one/foggy/unclear/smeered lense while the other prophets of Israel saw Hashem through 15 or more such lenses. Moshen ben-Amram was the only one to recognize the limition of his one/foggy/unclear/smeered lense where the other prophets of Israel were not able to able recognize their 15 or more such lenses.

Thus, we often don't speak of Hashem is - because that is beyond us - we can speak of what Hashem is not though.

In the positive direction, we would say that Hashem is the Source of all reality and creation. Further, that Hashem gave the Torah as a national revelation to the Israel people at Mount Sinai. There are some others but I think you get the picture.

I was thinking that perhaps that is the reason why there is so much Avodah Zara in human belief because perhaps for a lot of humans, the whole thing about Hasheem is too distant and too incomprehensible for people, and perhaps that is why Christianity started because people were looking for a compassionate God and a loving God and a God that is accessible to them. And even though infinitely removed from them, they still have what Christians like to call, "a personal relationship."

 

[David Davidovich]

And even though infinitely removed from them, they still have what Christians like to call, "a personal relationship."

Or at least think that they have.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

I was thinking that perhaps that is the reason why there is so much Avodah Zara in human belief because perhaps for a lot of humans, the whole thing about Hashem is too distant and too incomprehensible for people, and perhaps that is why Christianity started because people were looking for a compassionate God and a loving God and a God that is accessible to them. And even though infinitely removed from them, they still have what Christians like to call, "a personal relationship."

I would disagree. I would say that the concept of "beleif" that people have developed is part of what allows those who don't want use the intelligence that humans were created with to go towards Avodah Zara.

The reasons that Christians started doing Avodah Zara is because they chose to try and cover up their main guy's failures with any nonsense they could rather than just admit that he didn't meet the standard. Then when they spread to the non-Jewish world they decided that the best way to convince people to join them was to keep certain elements of their Avodah Zara.

The Rambam makes a very interesting point that Avodah Zara started because certain elements of humanity did not want Hashem to be close to Humanity and therefore developed ideas of things that were in between Hashem and humanity until eventually that developed into the concept of there being lots of different powers that created reality. On the flip sides some people replaced Hashem with themselves to justify their desire to not keep most of the 7 mitzvoth in a senese making themselves into the power of powers, so to speak.

I.e. if I can create the concept of a god/gods then I can do whatever I want and distance the Source because now my concept can replace/distance the reality. Further, a person says that there are lots of dieties, the English concept of a god, then a person can distance Hashem by saying I can do what I want. If I want to hate people I can go to the diety of hate and be about that. If I want to ignore the need to advance to survive then I can say, I have eleated nature to the level where it is a deity and I can simply ingore common and claim to be a natural man of the earth, even when there is a need to update things. Or I can say that humanity is the top of the food chain and humanity can conquer all things or that humanity is THE focus of all things.

With Torath Mosheh Jews, the difference is that when Hashem gave the Torah to our ancestors they accepted it. Even the generation of the wilderness, even with all of the decrees against them because of their actions, they as a majority never fully abandoned Hashem and the Torah. Our perspective is that in every generation there have been people, even in the non-Jewish world, who have seen the reality for what it is. The Rambam also mentions something interesting. He states that even with all of issues that came about because of xianity and the other thing that at the least it got the word out, even if their message was twisted, to places that at least have some idea about Hashem. Thus, when there is a return to a Torah based nation here in the land of Israel that it will make it easier for the world to recognize what is happening vs. if those two situations didn't exist.