Torath Mosheh Jews and Paul and the Law

[Ehav4Ever]

I see. So, what was the situation in Genesis 6:4?

Exactly, what Rabbi Skobac described in his video.

(נפלים) - Those were failing and causing others to fail. I.e. they were not keeping the 7 mitzvoth and were destroying the integrity of the world. There are sources that say that there was a rise of water levels, at this time, that destroyed a number of locations. I.e. as if nature was reacting to their actions and it would have been expected that the later generation of the flood would have paid heed to this previous situation.

(בני אלהים) - The descendents of power men. The leaders of the generation. The judges of that generation.

The above is according to TorathMosheh commentators Aramaic translation of Onkelos, Rashi, Ramban, Ibn Ezra, etc.

 

[David Davidovich]

Easy. They build up destructive cultures that continue and wipe out any good that come out of a situation and they produce generation after generation of destructive behaviour. Also, "primative" is a subjective thing.

But wouldn't they have been destabilizing society rather than the actual planet itself?

 

[David Davidovich]

They were also not destroyed because of beleif. They were destroyed because they built up a destructive culture. There are Jewish texts that talk about what kind of things they did to outsiders and their system of justice was very corrupt.

Well, I'm aware that Ezekiel 16:49 says that Sodom's sin was "pride, abundance of bread, and careless ease were hers and her daughters', and she did not strengthen the hand of the poor and needy," however, I would be interested in what the Jewish text says about Sodom and Gomorrah. Especially, since the Chrisitan text seems to put more emphasis on Sodom and Gomorrah's homosexual behavior. And by the way, I don't know if this would merit a new thread, but what Is the Torath Mosheh Jews' viewpoint on homosexual behavior and homosexuality?

click here: Yechezkel - Ezekiel - Chapter 16 - Tanakh Online - Torah - Bible (chabad.org)

 

[David Davidovich]

Exactly, what Rabbi Skobac described in his video.

View attachment 65451

(נפלים) - Those were failing and causing others to fail. I.e. they were not keeping the 7 mitzvoth and were destroying the integrity of the world. There are sources that say that there was a rise of water levels, at this time, that destroyed a number of locations. I.e. as if nature was reacting to their actions and it would have been expected that the later generation of the flood would have paid heed to this previous situation.

(בני אלהים) - The descendents of power men. The leaders of the generation. The judges of that generation.

The above is according to TorathMosheh commentators Aramaic translation of Onkelos, Rashi, Ramban, Ibn Ezra, etc.

Sorry about that, but I meant about the midrash that he mentioned at 29:57 concerning the two angels who did come down and fell head over heels with beautiful women. Because what is the purpose of having a midrash like that if it's not really what Torath Mosheh Jews believe?

 

[Ehav4Ever]

But wouldn't they have been destabilizing society rather than the actual planet itself?

As we can see in our time it is possible to do both at the same time and often one is interconnected to the other.

For example, kill off on an entire speicies of animal in a location and you affect the food web in ways that can be disasterous. Transfer an animal native to one location to another where it is not native and you can cause a complete collapse of the ecology. Burn down a forest in one location and you can affect the environment worldwide. Over farm the land in any location and you can cause/increase desertification. Transfer people from one location to another where the disieses native to those people are not common in the new location and you can devistate the poeple who were already there.

Further, destroy every person who has the possibility to raise of socially and environmentally aware children and you can destroy any chance of a future where anyone even cares.

All of these have happened in history, at various levels, and it can be caused by people with low tech options available to them. Yet, we know that people from ancient cultures were able to create extremely impressive structures and such in ways still a mystery today. So, even with a low tech approach so much has been historically possible and in some situations it is just a matter of time and convinction.

 

[David Davidovich]

(נפלים) - Those were failing and causing others to fail. I.e. they were not keeping the 7 mitzvoth and were destroying the integrity of the world. There are sources that say that there was a rise of water levels, at this time, that destroyed a number of locations. I.e. as if nature was reacting to their actions and it would have been expected that the later generation of the flood would have paid heed to this previous situation.

As if nature was reacting to their actions??? So, Torah Mosheh Jews don't believe that Hashem caused the flood out of his anger?

 

[David Davidovich]

As we can see in our time it is possible to do both at the same time and often one is interconnected to the other.

For example, kill off on an entire speicies of animal in a location and you affect the food web in ways that can be disasterous. Transfer an animal native to one location to another where it is not native and you can cause a complete collapse of the ecology. Burn down a forest in one location and you can affect the environment worldwide. Over farm the land in any location and you can cause/increase desertification. Transfer people from one location to another where the disieses native to those people are not common in the new location and you can devistate the poeple who were already there.

Further, destroy every person who has the possibility to raise of socially and environmentally aware children and you can destroy any chance of a future where anyone even cares.

All of these have happened in history, at various levels, and it can be caused by people with low tech options available to them. Yet, we know that people from ancient cultures were able to create extremely impressive structures and such in ways still a mystery today. So, even with a low tech approach so much has been historically possible and in some situations it is just a matter of time and convinction.

I see. But I have a question about transferring an animal native to one location to another where it is not native and how you can cause a complete collapse of the ecology. So, do Torath Mosheh Jews believe in a literal Noah's flood or not? Because that would have involved transferring all the animals on earth from their native locations and putting them together on the ark. And then after the water subsided, then wouldn't all those animals need to travel back to their native locations in order for the world ecology to be stable?

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Sorry about that, but I meant about the midrash that he mentioned at 29:57 concerning the two angels who did come down and fell head over heels with beautiful women. Because what is the purpose of having a midrash like that if it's not really what Torath Mosheh Jews believe?

That is a midrash. Midrash is not always meant to be taken literally. There are midrash's that were written to teach lessons. Like a sermon to push a specific point across. For example, that the challenges that humans face are not some thing that is something that one can say, "Those silly people in the past. They are so primitive. We are way more advanced than them. We would never fall for those silly issues they did."

Maybe even, I am rich and have everything. I would never fall for the things those poor lower class people fall for. Or, I am happily married I would never cheat on my wife. Or, I can drink a bit of alchohol and drive home - what happens to those other people would never happen to me. Also, I have a university degree I would never make the mistakes that someone who is uneducated would make. Possibly, I am from a first world country look at the silly problems of those people living in a 3rd world country, I am nothing like them. Further, I am young and beautiful I don't need to get married while I am young, I have lots of time, I will build up my career first and wait to get married when I am 30 or 40. Potentially, this man that likes me and wants to treat me well is not on my level. He is also not my type. Not like that more flambouent guy over there who has a history of womanizing. I can change him. I can make him what I want him to be. This guy right here that likes me is too good of a friend.

There is a story of a rabbi who said very bad things about one of the kings of Israel that caused the exile of the kingdom of Yehudah (Judah), the story goes that one night in a dream said king appeared to him and said, "How dare you say all of the things you said about me as if you are better than me. You don't know wha it was like to live during the time I did with the power I had availale to me. If you had lived during that time and been my situation you would have made worse mistakes than I did."

The midrash is trying to teach that we as humans are unique with our ability to have free will and it is a gift that has its challenges and we should never think lightly about it. We should further realize that we have the ability, because our nature, to overcome challenges, if we really want to and if we put the work in. A person should never beleive that we humans are a disaster or a mistake, we were created with something that is unique in reality, and having free will is a part of that as well as correcting ourselves.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

As if nature was reacting to their actions??? So, Torah Mosheh Jews don't believe that Hashem caused the flood out of his anger?

No, Hashem doesn't have emotions. Hashem created emotions for humans to have.

Hashem created the ability for there to be a particular flood, for that generation. It didn't have to happen. There are protections placed in nature no different than how our bodies react to an infection. If the infection is trying to destroy the body the immune system reacts. If the immune system wasn't there then all kinds of havoc can happen. For example, the below picture is of a man from Indonisia who had a weak immune system that could not fight off the Human papillomavirus (HPV) it caused his body to do what you see in the picture below. (Epidermodysplasia verruciformis (EV))

I.e. as we see in our time. Take one peice of the natural puzzle apart, and like a jeenga game, it can affect the whole stack. Yet, one can always put the puzzle back together or to put the peices back before it falls apart. One can also build it and keep together w/o playing around the possibility of it all falling apart. There are choices. One can even glue the peices together and place the jeenga set in a place where it won't fall apart.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

So, do Torath Mosheh Jews believe in a literal Noah's flood or not?

Yes, but it wasn't just a flood. I.e. it wasn't just rise of water.

If you go to my comment #10 HERE I gave a bunch of details of what I mean by that.

There are Torath Mosheh Jewish sources that state that the earth was different than it is now, back then. Kind of the concept of pangea.

Because that would have involved transferring all the animals on earth from their native locations and putting them together on the ark. And then after the water subsided, then wouldn't all those animals need to travel back to their native locations in order for the world ecology to be stable?

If the one who created ecology, etc. tells you put some animals in one place so that they don't get destroyed you can trust that said creator knows what ecology that said animals will return to when things calm down. If a person, w/o that kind of knowledge, does so you might end up with the cane toad problem that Australia has been facing or the Lion fish situation that is being faced in Florida.

Also, be aware, if you read through what I posted in comment #10 HERE there are Torath Mosheh sources that state that the landscape was different after the left the "tevah" (תבה) this is what the structure that Noach was to build was called in Hebrew.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Well, I'm aware that Ezekiel 16:49 says that Sodom's sin was "pride, abundance of bread, and careless ease were hers and her daughters', and she did not strengthen the hand of the poor and needy," however, I would be interested in what the Jewish text says about Sodom and Gomorrah. Especially, since the Chrisitan text seems to put more emphasis on Sodom and Gomorrah's homosexual behavior. And by the way, I don't know if this would merit a new thread, but what Is the Torath Mosheh Jews' viewpoint on homosexual behavior and homosexuality?

click here: Yechezkel - Ezekiel - Chapter 16 - Tanakh Online - Torah - Bible (chabad.org)

The basic summary from Torath Mosheh sources is that Sodom and Amorah (the actually Hebrew pronunciation is Amorah) did not keep the 7 mitzvoth, Noachide laws. Due to this their judicial system being corrupt and their treatment of strangers to their society, due to such a corrupt system, opened them up to the more difficult side of the natural world.

That is a basic summary. Everything under the sun can happen in a society with completely corrupt judicial systems especially if it extends all over society from the top to the very bottom.

 

[YoursTrue]

No, Hashem doesn't have emotions. Hashem created emotions for humans to have.

Hashem created the ability for there to be a particular flood, for that generation. It didn't have to happen. There are protections placed in nature no different than how our bodies react to an infection. If the infection is trying to destroy the body the immune system reacts. If the immune system wasn't there then all kinds of havoc can happen. For example, the below picture is of a man from Indonisia who had a weak immune system that could not fight off the Human papillomavirus (HPV) it caused his body to do what you see in the picture below. (Epidermodysplasia verruciformis (EV))

View attachment 65461

I.e. as we see in our time. Take one peice of the natural puzzle apart, and like a jeenga game, it can affect the whole stack. Yet, one can always put the puzzle back together or to put the peices back before it falls apart. One can also build it and keep together w/o playing around the possibility of it all falling apart. There are choices. One can even glue the peices together and place the jeenga set in a place where it won't fall apart.

View attachment 65460

Out of respect for you I will refrain from using the Almighty God's name so as not to disturb you, but rather I refer to Him here as LORD or adonai.
Because -- when the LORD was passing by Moses, He said: “the LORD, the LORD, a God merciful and compassionate, slow to anger and abundant in loyal love and truth." Exodus 34:6.

 

[YoursTrue]

Yes, but it wasn't just a flood. I.e. it wasn't just rise of water.

If you go to my comment #10 HERE I gave a bunch of details of what I mean by that.

There are Torath Mosheh Jewish sources that state that the earth was different than it is now, back then. Kind of the concept of pangea.



If the one who created ecology, etc. tells you put some animals in one place so that they don't get destroyed you can trust that said creator knows what ecology that said animals will return to when things calm down. If a person, w/o that kind of knowledge, does so you might end up with the cane toad problem that Australia has been facing or the Lion fish situation that is being faced in Florida.

Also, be aware, if you read through what I posted in comment #10 HERE there are Torath Mosheh sources that state that the landscape was different after the left the "tevah" (תבה) this is what the structure that Noach was to build was called in Hebrew.

Certainly after the Great Flood the earth's topography, among other things, changed drastically.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

But wouldn't they have been destabilizing society rather than the actual planet itself?

Consider this. Some really smart, well to do, and powerful men and women caused the following situations in our time.

 

[David Davidovich]

That is a midrash. Midrash is not always meant to be taken literally. There are midrash's that were written to teach lessons. Like a sermon to push a specific point across. For example, that the challenges that humans face are not some thing that is something that one can say, "Those silly people in the past. They are so primitive. We are way more advanced than them. We would never fall for those silly issues they did."

. . .

The midrash is trying to teach that we as humans are unique with our ability to have free will and it is a gift that has its challenges and we should never think lightly about it. We should further realize that we have the ability, because our nature, to overcome challenges, if we really want to and if we put the work in. A person should never beleive that we humans are a disaster or a mistake, we were created with something that is unique in reality, and having free will is a part of that as well as correcting ourselves.

I see. But why would a midrash mention two angels who came down to earth and fell head over heels with beautiful women If the concept of an angel is far different to Torath Mosheh Jews than it is for Christians and other people?

 

[David Davidovich]

No, Hashem doesn't have emotions. Hashem created emotions for humans to have.

But I thought humans were created in the image of Hashem. Also, how does Jewish commentary explain this since the Hebrew text is full of verses that portray Hashem as having emotions? From compassionate, loving emotions to uncontrolled anger and rage.

One can even glue the peices together and place the jeenga set in a place where it won't fall apart.

There's no metaphorical meaning for gluing the pieces together and placing the Jenga set in a place where it won't fall apart is there?

 

[David Davidovich]

Yes, but it wasn't just a flood. I.e. it wasn't just rise of water.

If you go to my comment #10 HERE I gave a bunch of details of what I mean by that.

There are Torath Mosheh Jewish sources that state that the earth was different than it is now, back then. Kind of the concept of pangea.



If the one who created ecology, etc. tells you put some animals in one place so that they don't get destroyed you can trust that said creator knows what ecology that said animals will return to when things calm down. If a person, w/o that kind of knowledge, does so you might end up with the cane toad problem that Australia has been facing or the Lion fish situation that is being faced in Florida.

Also, be aware, if you read through what I posted in comment #10 HERE there are Torath Mosheh sources that state that the landscape was different after the left the "tevah" (תבה) this is what the structure that Noach was to build was called in Hebrew.

I will read those comments, however, the whole Noah's flood story seems like a very fantastical and fanciful story.

 

[David Davidovich]

David Davidovich said: ↑
Well, I'm aware that Ezekiel 16:49 says that Sodom's sin was "pride, abundance of bread, and careless ease were hers and her daughters', and she did not strengthen the hand of the poor and needy," however, I would be interested in what the Jewish text says about Sodom and Gomorrah. Especially, since the Chrisitan text seems to put more emphasis on Sodom and Gomorrah's homosexual behavior. And by the way, I don't know if this would merit a new thread, but what Is the Torath Mosheh Jews' viewpoint on homosexual behavior and homosexuality?

click here: Yechezkel - Ezekiel - Chapter 16 - Tanakh Online - Torah - Bible (chabad.org)

The basic summary from Torath Mosheh sources is that Sodom and Amorah (the actually Hebrew pronunciation is Amorah) did not keep the 7 mitzvoth, Noachide laws. Due to this their judicial system being corrupt and their treatment of strangers to their society, due to such a corrupt system, opened them up to the more difficult side of the natural world.

That is a basic summary. Everything under the sun can happen in a society with completely corrupt judicial systems especially if it extends all over society from the top to the very bottom.

Well, that didn't really answer my question, but that's fine. However, I was more referring to verses in the Torah such as Leviticus 18:22 and Leviticus 20:13.

 

[David Davidovich]

Ehav4Ever said: ↑
Yes, but it wasn't just a flood. I.e. it wasn't just rise of water.

If you go to my comment #10 HERE I gave a bunch of details of what I mean by that.

There are Torath Mosheh Jewish sources that state that the earth was different than it is now, back then. Kind of the concept of pangea.

Certainly after the Great Flood the earth's topography, among other things, changed drastically.

But didn't he just mention the word Pangea that you quoted?

 

[Ehav4Ever]

I see. But why would a midrash mention two angels who came down to earth and fell head over heels with beautiful women If the concept of an angel is far different to Torath Mosheh Jews than it is for Christians and other people?

Because that is not what the Midrash says. The concept of angel is not all in the Midrash. It deals with the power of free will. Having free will is a powerful thing and humans have the power to master it. That is the basic point of the midrash. A mal'ach (מלאך) has no free will and no matter how much power something has ANYTHING would be overcome with free will. The sun is powerful but it has no free will. If it was all of sudden had free will its power prior to free will would not stop it from making human mistakes.

The midrash is a type of sermon or parable. Not all midrash is meant to be taken literally.