Torath Mosheh Jews and Paul and the Law

[Ehav4Ever]

But I thought humans were created in the image of Hashem.

Again, remember. You are dealing with a different language and a more than 3,000 year old culture. The concept of what is written in the Hebrew is that our intellect is what it means to be created in the image of Hashem. We don't have Hashem's intellect. We have a type of intellect that is an image of what Hashem has.

Also, how does Jewish commentary explain this since the Hebrew text is full of verses that portray Hashem as having emotions? From compassionate, loving emotions to uncontrolled anger and rage.

The explaination is that the Torah is written in the language of men. Hashem does not change but the Torah has to be written in a way that all Jews, throughout history, can relate to it. Otherwise one would have some metaphysical text that only a select few would understand on any level.

There's no metaphorical meaning for gluing the pieces together and placing the Jenga set in a place where it won't fall apart is there?

It is a for a baby that either doesn't understand or hasn't learned yet the rules and the goal of the game.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

I will read those comments, however, the whole Noah's flood story seems like a very fantastical and fanciful story.

That is fine, but again you haven't read it in Hebrew.

Also, there are a lot of unconnected ancient cultures that share a similar story and there are some environmental evidence that support the Torath Mosheh Jewish perspective. i.e. if one wants to claim, because of an English translation, that water based flood is what happened then one is not at all reading the Hebrew text or describing Torath Mosheh. Yet, to each their own. It is not the Torath Mosheh way to proselytize.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Well, that didn't really answer my question, but that's fine. However, I was more referring to verses in the Torah such as Leviticus 18:22 and Leviticus 20:13.

Those verses have nothing to do with Sodom and Amorah. The entire text of Wayiqra (Leviticus) ose are mitzvoth for the Israeli/Jewish nation. i.e. the entire text is directed only to the Israeli/Jewish people. It says so in verse 2.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

There's no metaphorical meaning for gluing the pieces together and placing the Jenga set in a place where it won't fall apart is there?

It is if somone wants to make jeenga into a game instead of simply building a stable structure and keeping it stable.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

If the concept of an angel is far different to Torath Mosheh Jews than it is for Christians and other people?

Because it is possible that the early christians "developed" their idea from taking a mix of midrash and mixing in certain non-Jewish ideas of "heavenly beings." I.e. maybe their early people did stay for the rest of the sermen where it was explained that the midrash was being metaphorical. Also, maybe the early christians were subject to a bad translation, given that the NT is written in Greek.

 

[David Davidovich]

Because that is not what the Midrash says. The concept of angel is not all in the Midrash. It deals with the power of free will. Having free will is a powerful thing and humans have the power to master it. That is the basic point of the midrash. A mal'ach (מלאך) has no free will and no matter how much power something has ANYTHING would be overcome with free will. The sun is powerful but it has no free will. If it was all of sudden had free will its power prior to free will would not stop it from making human mistakes.

The midrash is a type of sermon or parable. Not all midrash is meant to be taken literally.

But that doesn't sound like the point that Rabbi Skobac was making. Because starting here at 29:57 until 31:22, he says that "there is at least according to this midrash, that there this may be referring to angels who acted inappropriately." Therefore, I really don't see the point in Rabbi Skobac even pointing this out.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

But that doesn't sound like the point that Rabbi Skobac was making. Because starting here at 29:57 until 31:22, he says that "there is at least according to this midrash, that there this may be referring to angels who acted inappropriately." Therefore, I really don't see the point in Rabbi Skobac even pointing this out.

At 31:23 to 32:12 he explains why even brought up this midrash.

Also, at 26:27 to 29:57 he explains what all of this has to do with his discussion with information presented in the NT writing of jude, which is not found in the Torah, and if the christian concept of sola scriptura is the rule then jude appears to reaching into something that is no sola scriptura.

Also, I would like to point out that Rabbi Skobac wasn't going into detail about what the midrash is about or even what a midrash is. He has done that in other videos, he was making the points that I pointed above to say that the author of jude is not sola scriptura.

 

[David Davidovich]

The explaination is that the Torah is written in the language of men. Hashem does not change but the Torah has to be written in a way that all Jews, throughout history, can relate to it. Otherwise one would have some metaphysical text that only a select few would understand on any level.

Okay, but isn't love, love and compassion, compassion, and anger, anger, and rage, rage? Because I can't imagine it being something else?

It is a for a baby that either doesn't understand or hasn't learned yet the rules and the goal of the game.

I see. Well, when I asked, I didn't know if Jews had something similar in mind that Christians have. And I know the Christian Bible isn't relevant to you, but at Revelation 20:7-10, it explains how humans who have grown to be perfect after 1000 years are tested by Satan, kind of on equal footing with Adam and Eve's test, and those who fail that test will be gone forever, but those who succeed the test will be proven to live forever. However, with Christians who have a two-class system, only the heavenly bound Christians who endure their tests on earth will have an absolute permanent position in heaven in God's Kingdom.

7 And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea. 9 And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and consumed them, 10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

click here: Revelation 20:7-10 ESV - The Defeat of Satan - And when the - Bible Gateway

24 Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For “God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. 28 When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.

click here: 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 ESV - Then comes the end, when he delivers - Bible Gateway

Also...

50 I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. 53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. 54 When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:

“Death is swallowed up in victory.”​

55 “O death, where is your victory?

O death, where is your sting?”​

56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

click here: 1 Corinthians 15:50-57 ESV - Mystery and Victory - I tell you this, - Bible Gateway

So, I didn't know if you were making some sort of metaphor about permanence.

 

[David Davidovich]

Those verses have nothing to do with Sodom and Amorah. The entire text of Wayiqra (Leviticus) ose are mitzvoth for the Israeli/Jewish nation. i.e. the entire text is directed only to the Israeli/Jewish people. It says so in verse 2.

Right, but I had thought that since we were on a related subject (or at least it is for Christians) that I would ask you about Leviticus. But now I'm curious about something: Is there a reason why the verses in Leviticus are mitzvoth only for the Israeli/Jewish nation, but isn't not God's viewpoint for all of humankind?

 

[Ehav4Ever]

But now I'm curious about something: Is there a reason why the verses in Leviticus are mitzvoth only for the Israeli/Jewish nation, but isn't not God's viewpoint for all of humankind?

For the non-Jewish nations that is from somewhere else. I.e. the Noachide laws. It is not though the reason why Sodom and Amorah fell the way they did. Their entire disregard for justice and treatment of strangers was the reason. Further, according to Jewish sources if at least 10 people had been found there who was keeping the 7 mitzvoth/Noachide laws correctly they would not have been destroyed. On the merit of those ten they would have survived.

The opposite to their situation is Nineweh mentioned in the book of Yonah (Jonah) where a city that was corrupt, from top to bottom, heard a warning that their society would be turned upside down in 40 days and all of them, from the top to the bottom, turned things around immediately.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Okay, but isn't love, love and compassion, compassion, and anger, anger, and rage, rage? Because I can't imagine it being something else?

Consider that, according to Torath Mosheh, Hashem set the rules of engagement and defined what is possible for humans to understand about the nature of Hashem. One of those rules is that the Torah is written in the language of humanity. Another is that Hashem doesn't change.

What the Torah records as love, love and compassion, compassion, and anger, anger, and rage, rage is the sake of our perspective. For example, a Torath Mosheh Jew realizes the below:

A Torath Mosheh sees this reality and conceptually sees this as "love" from the Source of creation. Love is a human perspective and it is something that Hashem created for humans to have. The term represents what we feel from what the Source provides us.

A Torath Mosheh Jew sees, that when we don't keep the Torah correct the following happens. (exile)

Torath Mosheh Jews see this and conceptually sees this as "anger" from the Source of creation at our actions that opened up the possibility of exile. Similar to a father that is forced to punish their child's action. There are fathers who punish, not out of anger, but out of a requirement for justice. Yet, from the child's perspective it appears that the parent is angry.

A Torath Mosheh sees fellow Jews doing Avodah Zara and the effects of it on Israeli society and they see this as the "anger" of Hashem.

In all of the above Hashem hasn't changed. Hashem established the rules from the start and built reality to work in a certain way based on rules of engagement of humanity. Our actions can cause the good of the realty or the not so good of the reality. What we experience from Hashem drives our perspective of emotions, on the part of Hashem.

That is the reality that Mosheh ben-Amram (Moses) passed on to Torath Mosheh Jews, as he learned it from Hashem.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

And I know the Christian Bible isn't relevant to you,

Definately not, and also not reliable from a Torath Mosheh perspective.

but at Revelation 20:7-10,

You may want to research the questions that Christian scholars have about the authorship and intent of the author of revelations. It may provide you some insight into why we Torath Mosheh Jews don't consider it reliable or even relevant.

 

[David Davidovich]

Consider that, according to Torath Mosheh, Hashem set the rules of engagement and defined what is possible for humans to understand about the nature of Hashem. One of those rules is that the Torah is written in the language of humanity. Another is that Hashem doesn't change.

What the Torah records as love, love and compassion, compassion, and anger, anger, and rage, rage is the sake of our perspective. For example, a Torath Mosheh Jew realizes the below:

View attachment 65535

A Torath Mosheh sees this reality and conceptually sees this as "love" from the Source of creation. Love is a human perspective and it is something that Hashem created for humans to have. The term represents what we feel from what the Source provides us.

A Torath Mosheh Jew sees, that when we don't keep the Torah correct the following happens. (exile)

Torath Mosheh Jews see this and conceptually sees this as "anger" from the Source of creation at our actions that opened up the possibility of exile. Similar to a father that is forced to punish their child's action. There are fathers who punish, not out of anger, but out of a requirement for justice. Yet, from the child's perspective it appears that the parent is angry.

A Torath Mosheh sees fellow Jews doing Avodah Zara and the effects of it on Israeli society and they see this as the "anger" of Hashem.

In all of the above Hashem hasn't changed. Hashem established the rules from the start and built reality to work in a certain way based on rules of engagement of humanity. Our actions can cause the good of the realty or the not so good of the reality. What we experience from Hashem drives our perspective of emotions, on the part of Hashem.

That is the reality that Mosheh ben-Amram (Moses) passed on to Torath Mosheh Jews, as he learned it from Hashem.

I see. Also, I will admit that what you said in your post was very interesting, but how do you know this? Is this from Torah commentary?

P.S. Also, our planet has never truly been deep frozen? So, what about the ice ages? Also,what about the uninhabitableness of the planet in the year 536 CE?

 

[David Davidovich]

David Davidovich said: ↑
But now I'm curious about something: Is there a reason why the verses in Leviticus are mitzvoth only for the Israeli/Jewish nation, but isn't not God's viewpoint for all of humankind?

For the non-Jewish nations that is from somewhere else. I.e. the Noachide laws. It is not though the reason why Sodom and Amorah fell the way they did. Their entire disregard for justice and treatment of strangers was the reason. Further, according to Jewish sources if at least 10 people had been found there who was keeping the 7 mitzvoth/Noachide laws correctly they would not have been destroyed. On the merit of those ten they would have survived.

I see. So, do you have any guesses as to why the writer in the book of Jude at Jude 1:6-7 as described in the "TeNaK Talk (TaNaCh)" video at 27:24 blends the ideas of the supposed sexual misbehavior of some of the angels in heaven who came down and had sex with human women with same-sex misbehavior in Genesis 19? And perhaps why the apostle Paul (if that really was Paul) seemed so obsessed with homosexual behavior in Christian Bible verses such as Romans 1:26-27, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, and 1 Timothy 1:9-10? And who even invented a new Greek word "Arsenokoitai" in two of those passages to describe same-sex behavior, and which was derived from the verses in Leviticus?

That word is an unusual word. It’s a new word; we don’t know of any other instances of the word until Paul coins the word in 1 Corinthians 6 and 1 Timothy 1. It’s a compound word: “arsen” means man and “koite” or “koitas” or “koitai”—depending on a verb or a noun—means bed. It’s men who bed with other men.

It’s quite clear that Paul has coined this word from Leviticus 18 and 20. Even if you don’t know any Greek, you could find online or pull up the Greek transliteration of these two verses. Look at the Septuagint, which is the Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible, and then just look at the Greek for the necessary passage in Leviticus 18 and Leviticus 20 and you'll see there (and in fact the words are right next to each other in Leviticus 20) this word for man (“arsen”) and the word for bed (“koitai” or “koite”).

click here: What Does "Arsenokoitai" Mean? | Crossway Articles

P.S. And please excuse me for the double negative that I used in my post.

 

[David Davidovich]

You may want to research the questions that Christian scholars have about the authorship and intent of the author of revelations. It may provide you some insight into why we Torath Mosheh Jews don't consider it reliable or even relevant.

Thank you. I will definitely do.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

I see. Also, I will admit that what you said in your post was very interesting, but how do you know this? Is this from Torah commentary?

It is a part of the written Torah, in Hebrew, and also the Oral Torah that Mosheh ben-Amram taught to Torath Mosheh Jews. It is also from a book that Mosheh ben-Amram wrote called Iyov (Job) or at least the Hebrew version of it.

P.S. Also, our planet has never truly been deep frozen? So, what about the ice ages?

The Ice ages on earth, are not considered to be planetary deep frozen.

Science | AAAS

Ice Ages: What Causes the Earth to Freeze Over Every Few Million Years?

Also,what about the uninhabitableness of the planet in the year 536 CE?

In what way was the earth uninhabitable in 536 CE?

 

[Ehav4Ever]

I see. So, do you have any guesses as to why the writer in the book of Jude at Jude 1:6-7

None whatsoever. You would have to ask the author of jude or those who taught about his the reasons behind his writings. It is possible hat he/she was patch working things together from any source they could but don't take my word for that. It is probably likely that the author of jude took that to the grave with them.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

And perhaps why the apostle Paul (if that really was Paul) seemed so obsessed with homosexual behavior in Christian Bible verses such as Romans 1:26-27, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, and 1 Timothy 1:9-10? And who even invented a new Greek word "Arsenokoitai" in two of those passages to describe same-sex behavior, and which was derived from the verses in Leviticus?

You will have to ask the author of Paul's writings. His writings seem to be due to his hellonistic background as well as his doom's day focus of jesus supposidly coming in his generation. Also, maybe he was a building and alternate christian cult.

His basis of thought and life are not really grounded in Torath Mosheh thinking so at that point he was able to make up anything he wanted to his non-Jewish audience and they could not call him out on it.

 

[David Davidovich]

In what way was the earth uninhabitable in 536 CE?

Well, I would say close.

Ask medieval historian Michael McCormick what year was the worst to be alive, and he's got an answer: "536." Not 1349, when the Black Death wiped out half of Europe. Not 1918, when the flu killed 50 million to 100 million people, mostly young adults. But 536. In Europe, "It was the beginning of one of the worst periods to be alive, if not the worst year," says McCormick, a historian and archaeologist who chairs the Harvard University Initiative for the Science of the Human Past.

click here: Why 536 was ‘the worst year to be alive' | Science | AAAS

Also, in viewing such a catastrophe, I would say that for some people, it's kind of hard seeing that God's hands are always involved with the events on earth. Plus, catastrophes such as this, makes one think of Ecclesiastes 9:11.

Young's Literal Translation
I have turned so as to see under the sun, that not to the swift is the race, nor to the mighty the battle, nor even to the wise bread, nor even to the intelligent wealth, nor even to the skilful grace, for time and chance happen with them all.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Well, I would say close.
click here: Why 536 was ‘the worst year to be alive' | Science | AAAS

https://www.science.org/content/article/why-536-was-worst-year-be-alive

That information doesn't appear to show that the earth uninhabitable in 536 CE. It also seemed focused on Europe. Maybe you meant that in 536 CE Europe was a not so good place to be. That was not the case in a lot other parts of the world.

Also, in viewing such a catastrophe, I would say that for some people, it's kind of hard seeing that God's hands are always involved with the events on earth.

It could have been that there conept of a "god" was at fault. It could also be that their concept of what was in their own hands and what was not in their hands was off. Maybe even they were not paying attention to some of the environmental realities that sometimes mark these kinds of events. Further, it could be that their reliance on certain types of societal norms opened them up to such.

Because Torath Mosheh Jews have a perspective that Hashem gave us that we have been historically reviewing, argueing, debating, coming to terms with internally it could be that whatever Jews that were in Europe in 536 CE knew how to survive, did, and then passed that on to their children.

As mentioned before there are some other parts of the world that were surviving just fine in 586 CE.