Toronto couple raises their children gender-neutral

[YmirGF]

No, as far as I can tell from their interviews, both parents love and support all their kids unconditionally, and all their efforts are motivated by a keen interest in their children's well-being and fulfillment.

And yet... to quote the article...

But Beresin said the Canadian couple's approach is a "terrible idea."
"Identity formation is really critical for every human being and part of that is gender," he said. "There are many cultural and social forces at play."

"To raise a child not as a boy or a girl is creating, in some sense, a freak," said Dr. Eugene Beresin, director of training in child and adolescent psychiatry at Massachusetts General Hospital. "It sets them up for not knowing who they are.

"To have a sense of self and personal identity is a critical part of normal healthy development," he said. "This blocks that and sets the child up for bullying, scapegoating and marginalization."

Frankly, I figured out that the parents were members of the lunatic fringe when I read about "When Storm came into the world in a birthing pool" and "Stocker teaches at an alternative junior high school and said he plans his lessons around social justice issues. Witterick practices unschooling, which is similar to homeschooling, with no report cards, no textbooks and no tests." and they let these people breed. *sigh*

Personally, if I had kids, I wouldn't want these folks anywhere around them.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Recently I read an article about the differences between male and female brain that mentioned this couple.
What do you say?
I believe they are doomed to fail and make it hard for their children to develope a stable identity.
Baby Storm Raised Genderless

Most likely, they're just raising themselves out of a relationship with the kid once he's old enough to get away from his nutjob, liberal douchwad parents.

 

[Katzpur]

As the mother says, if people think it's a girl because of the use of (s)he or sneak a peek during a playground diaper change, "that's their journey". The entire family obviously knows the gender of the child - the false notion that it is being kept from the child is histrionic silliness in the rush to find fault. Their "dangerous experiment" is to withhold an answer from people they feel are asking Storm's gender in order to modify their behavior in "gender-appropriate" ways. For example, shopkeepers who feel disdain for the purchase of toys or clothes designed for the gender the baby is not, like the one who was horrified that the mum was going to get Storm's big brother a pink feather boa he wanted.

I still feel like it's kind of overkill to try to raise the kid "genderless." If shopkeepers don't like the parents' choice of toys for their kids, I'd address that issue instead of trying to hide the child's gender. I'm not rushing to find fault. It just seems like extremism to me, and I tend to me more moderate than to go to such lengths because of some random shopkeeper or anybody else.

One would assume an 18 month old baby wouldn't have much to say to the question "are you a boy or a girl?" It is statistically more likely than not that by the time the child is of an age when (s)he can verbalize any kind of response, (s)he will already be primarily attracted to the general accessories of whichever gender (s)he happens to be and the "experiment" will be over.

Apparently that wasn't the case with his/her older brother, though.

Would I raise my own kids this way? Probably not, but am I going to join the mad rush to condemn another woman's mothering style with no information apart from this one single detail? No, as far as I can tell from their interviews, both parents love and support all their kids unconditionally, and all their efforts are motivated by a keen interest in their children's well-being and fulfillment.

I'm sure they do. I just think while their motives may be admirable, their tactics aren't. It's their life, though, and I'm just voicing my opinion.

 

[Alceste]

And yet... to quote the article...

Frankly, I figured out that the parents were members of the lunatic fringe when I read about "When Storm came into the world in a birthing pool" and "Stocker teaches at an alternative junior high school and said he plans his lessons around social justice issues. Witterick practices unschooling, which is similar to homeschooling, with no report cards, no textbooks and no tests." and they let these people breed. *sigh*

Personally, if I had kids, I wouldn't want these folks anywhere around them.

What qualifies Beresin to offer a "professional opinion"? Has he spoken to the couple? Is he aware of any more of the details than the writer of the ABC article (which leaves out most of the details in the original Star article), or is he just some random "expert" that the hack who wrote the article called for an quote?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

What qualifies Beresin to offer a "professional opinion"? Has he spoken to the couple? Is he aware of any more of the details than the writer of the ABC article (which leaves out most of the details in the original Star article), or is he just some random "expert" that the hack who wrote the article called for an quote?

Also, it's not clear exactly what he's giving his opinion on. I think the value of his statement really depends on what question the reporter asked to prompt it, but we don't know what it was.

 

[Alceste]

Also, it's not clear exactly what he's giving his opinion on. I think the value of his statement really depends on what question the reporter asked to prompt it, but we don't know what it was.

I imagine the conversation had to have been something like this:

Reporter: "There's this Canadian couple who has decided to keep their child's gender a secret. What do you think of that?"

"Expert": "Well I think that's a TERRIBLE idea!!!!"

Eugene Beresin's qualifications to comment on this particular story are as follows: he is ABC's on call commentator on parenting issues.

 

[Alceste]

I still feel like it's kind of overkill to try to raise the kid "genderless." If shopkeepers don't like the parents' choice of toys for their kids, I'd address that issue instead of trying to hide the child's gender. I'm not rushing to find fault. It just seems like extremism to me, and I tend to me more moderate than to go to such lengths because of some random shopkeeper or anybody else.

Apparently that wasn't the case with his/her older brother, though.

I'm sure they do. I just think while their motives may be admirable, their tactics aren't. It's their life, though, and I'm just voicing my opinion.

They are not "raising the child genderless". They are refusing to reveal the child's gender to people outside the immediate family until after the child develops a sense of gender identity on his or her own. That's it, that's all. I just can't see what the big deal is.

His older brother has a very girlish style but dislikes it when people refer to him as a girl. That's not this family's fault - all they've done is let their children develop their own style and support them regardless of whether the choices they make are mainstream in terms of gender identity. If others can't cope, that's their problem.

 

[Rakhel]

Sheesh. They are not raising the child genderless. They are refusing to give in to the demands of a society that demand gender based child rearing."A girl must be raised as a girl. A boy must be raised as a boy. No gender bending allowed."

 

[Kilgore Trout]

I'm sure their ridiculous amount of effort to make a point of not making a point of something will, no doubt, do the kid so much good. I mean, how could it not?

 

[Katzpur]

Sheesh. They are not raising the child genderless.

Okay! Gender-neutral. Genderless. It all sounds pretty much like the same thing to me. At any rate, it's not all that big of a deal to me how someone else raises his or her kids. I'm outta here before I push any more buttons! :run:

 

[Alceste]

Okay! Gender-neutral. Genderless. It all sounds pretty much like the same thing to me. At any rate, it's not all that big of a deal to me how someone else raises his or her kids. I'm outta here before I push any more buttons! :run:

Seems like you might be the one with the buttons being pushed. They simply choose not to disclose the child's gender to anyone outside the immediate family at this time. They're raising their child to be neither "genderless" nor "gender-neutral". For now, Storm is just "gender-undisclosed", and it's only as far as you and I are concerned. No doubt (s)he can very easily reach into hir nappies and discover whether or not (s)he has a penis. However, at least for now, (s)he is not being pressured to internalize social preconceptions with respect to the specific form of hir junk.

 

[Katzpur]

Seems like you might be the one with the buttons being pushed.

Not really. Honestly, I don't care how they raise their child. It's their child.

 

[methylatedghosts]

I think the child in question may face some rather big issues concerning his/her own identity. Somewhere along the line (s)he is going to wonder how (s)he fits in, considering how no-one else is going be brought up the same. The world is a confusing enough place as it is, without having to work this out as well.

At the same time, I can see that the parents probably mean well. I can see their thought process "Let him/her choose for itself, rather than being told 'this is who you are'". But I think that there are ways to do that that don't include not revealing the child's sex. Soon enough the child will reveal how (s)he identifies itself as male or female.

Or it's the parents saying "Look at how progressive and forward-thinking we are. Aren't we amazing and fantastic?" even if they may not say it directly.

TL;DR

I don't like it, but I can understand the parents.

 

[Alceste]

I think the child in question may face some rather big issues concerning his/her own identity. Somewhere along the line (s)he is going to wonder how (s)he fits in, considering how no-one else is going be brought up the same. The world is a confusing enough place as it is, without having to work this out as well.

At the same time, I can see that the parents probably mean well. I can see their thought process "Let him/her choose for itself, rather than being told 'this is who you are'". But I think that there are ways to do that that don't include not revealing the child's sex. Soon enough the child will reveal how (s)he identifies itself as male or female.

Or it's the parents saying "Look at how progressive and forward-thinking we are. Aren't we amazing and fantastic?" even if they may not say it directly.

TL;DR

I don't like it, but I can understand the parents.

Storm's brothers are brought up the same in that they have been allowed to develop their own style and sense of self without parental pressure or interference relating to gender norms. The only difference is that the third child is also free from outside pressure and interference relating to gender norms for now, thanks to hir parents' discretion.

What I wonder is why people feel they have an inalienable right to know what kind of genitalia a complete stranger's child is packing around in its diaper, and why they are so shocked and disapproving when they are told it's none of their business.

 

[Rakhel]

I see parents of hermaphrodite children doing the same thing. Do they have to choose a gender for their child? Just to satisfy society?
What if they choose male because s/he has balls only to find out later that the predominate sexual origins were the ovaries? Or via verse? what then? Apologize because the world made them choose between being the parents of a boy or a girl? "OOPS, so sorry my child. They said I had to raise you as a boy. not my fault." What good is that doing the child?

 

[Alceste]

I see parents of hermaphrodite children doing the same thing. Do they have to choose a gender for their child? Just to satisfy society?
What if they choose male because s/he has balls only to find out later that the predominate sexual origins were the ovaries? Or via verse? what then? Apologize because the world made them choose between being the parents of a boy or a girl? "OOPS, so sorry my child. They said I had to raise you as a boy. not my fault." What good is that doing the child?

Good point. I agree with their opinion that it is best to let a child determine his or her own gender identity as one facet of establishing a sense of self. I think such an approach would probably be very beneficial to trans-gendered or hermaphroditic children and harmless to children who are naturally inclined to fit into gender norms.

 

[blackout]

Keeping the "secret" is going to be a lot harder than they think.
I suspect. Once the genetalia is "out", that's it.
... and there ARE people who will "find out".

Anyway, the world at large does not like "alternative" thinking or lifestyles,
or really ANYTHING truly alternative to mass culture, "the system",
"tradition", "the status quo".
I am an alternative person by nature,
and it took me until just recently
to realize how deeply disconcerting this really is to most people.
I see it as a Plus! Others, just the opposite.
They don't know what to do with it.
"Advertizing" your "alternativeness" is actually bad for business.
Even if your alternative/s are better.

The TRICK really, is to Be True to YourSelf
without making other peoples' "intruder alert" sirens go off.
ie, APPEAR to "fit in", without ACTUALLY having to fit social norms.

People LOVE to judge and condemn.
And not just the religious ones.
Why walk around with a bulls'eye on?

In the end,
it doesn't benefit you.

Living life TRUE to the art of The Self,
is a life long art form.
As such, you need not only to mold your Own Self,
but also
people's perceptions of "You".
(to your own benefit. or you will always be the "out"'cast'/"cast out".)

 

[Barcode]

I have to disagree and in fact this experiment is outrageous! Parents can't always be with their kids and so regardless whether these parents remain gender-less at home when the child is old enough to reach kindergarten, pre-school, grade school age, they will encounter gender-sex conscious kids!

The idea that "kids determining their gender" is moot because at some point society determines gender. What happens if the kid has to use the restroom at school? Obviously according to their sex the teacher will put the kids in the appropriate facility. It makes no sense for parents to contradict social norms by hiding the truth.

 

[methylatedghosts]

Storm's brothers are brought up the same in that they have been allowed to develop their own style and sense of self without parental pressure or interference relating to gender norms. The only difference is that the third child is also free from outside pressure and interference relating to gender norms for now, thanks to hir parents' discretion.

What I wonder is why people feel they have an inalienable right to know what kind of genitalia a complete stranger's child is packing around in its diaper, and why they are so shocked and disapproving when they are told it's none of their business.

Like I said, I understand where they're coming from, and why perhaps they're doing it. But that doesn't mean it won't have its own complications.

When is the "great unveiling", so to speak? What about using the bathroom in a public place, e.g. at a school for example, or the local swimming pools to get changed? There are some rather significant hurdles in that alone, where people will be very unsure about how to take it. What about the other siblings, and them having to keep it a secret, how is that affecting them? Why should they have to keep it a secret? Every kid wants to be able to say "I have a baby brother" or "I have a baby sister", no? What happens if they accidentally let it slip?

I think the problem lies more with the secrecy surrounding it. I think it would be different if they'd said "Our baby has been born a boy, but we are letting him choose what gender roles he takes on himself as he grows and matures. We aren't going to subscribe to societal norms by putting the male role onto him" for example.

I'm generally not a big fan of secrets and lies, which is why this whole thing irks me a bit.

 

[Barcode]

(Using the voice of Q)

But...But.....you can't deny their sex because "your" society determines it (see my above bathroom example)!