Toronto couple raises their children gender-neutral

[blackout]

to Ymir,

My water birth was BY FAR the most comfortable of my 4 labors.
It took so much pressure off my lower back,
and the water made it easier for me to relax and push.
(believe it or not, hospitals -yes the mainstream-
actually instal water birthing tubs! such alternative medical ignorance!)

As well, after midwives, and YES their 'alternatives' ,
including natural (instead of pharmecudical) inducement of labour,
I would NEVER EVER recommend a status quo doctor
for a natural/vaginal delivery.

Birth a baby,
then get back to me.

 

[Alceste]

I have to disagree and in fact this experiment is outrageous! Parents can't always be with their kids and so regardless whether these parents remain gender-less at home when the child is old enough to reach kindergarten, pre-school, grade school age, they will encounter gender-sex conscious kids!

The idea that "kids determining their gender" is moot because at some point society determines gender. What happens if the kid has to use the restroom at school? Obviously according to their sex the teacher will put the kids in the appropriate facility. It makes no sense for parents to contradict social norms by hiding the truth.

They are not "genderless inside the home" - everybody in that family knows what everybody else is packing under the hood. The parents simply decline to inform people outside the immediate family of Storm's gender.

They home-school their kids, so public school bathrooms are not an issue, just as teacher confusion and playground abuse is not likely to be an issue.

Obviously, their children are going to be aware of the issue of gender, just as all children are aware of the issue of gender.

It strikes me that you are quick to assume their experiment is to conceal something from their children, when in fact all they are doing is concealing private information about their children from the rest of us. Is it really so important that WE know whether Storm has a penis or a vagina? I don't think it is.

 

[Barcode]

I see parents of hermaphrodite children doing the same thing. Do they have to choose a gender for their child? Just to satisfy society?
What if they choose male because s/he has balls only to find out later that the predominate sexual origins were the ovaries? Or via verse? what then? Apologize because the world made them choose between being the parents of a boy or a girl? "OOPS, so sorry my child. They said I had to raise you as a boy. not my fault." What good is that doing the child?

Well actually there is a difference between a genetic anamoly such as being a hermaphriodite and simply choosing your sex err....gender.

 

[Barcode]

They are not "genderless inside the home" - everybody in that family knows what everybody else is packing under the hood. The parents simply decline to inform people outside the immediate family of Storm's gender.

They home-school their kids, so public school bathrooms is not an issue, just as playground abuse is not likely to be an issue.

Obviously, their children are going to be aware of the issue of gender, just as all children are aware of the issue of gender.

It strikes me that you are quick to assume their experiment is to conceal something from their children, when in fact all they are doing is concealing private information about their children from the rest of us. Is it really so important that WE know whether Storm has a penis or a vagina? I don't think it is.

Well my comment was the result of not reading the article entirely and reading subsequent responses which was my mistake. Home schooling children is fine but its a bit problematic on teaching their kids their sex at home but as you say "not telling the outside." I don't recall parents alerting the outside that their child has a penis or a vagina. Again its social norm that kids develop an understanding of who they are sexually. In my humble opinion these parents are sheltering their kids.

 

[Alceste]

Like I said, I understand where they're coming from, and why perhaps they're doing it. But that doesn't mean it won't have its own complications.

When is the "great unveiling", so to speak? What about using the bathroom in a public place, e.g. at a school for example, or the local swimming pools to get changed? There are some rather significant hurdles in that alone, where people will be very unsure about how to take it. What about the other siblings, and them having to keep it a secret, how is that affecting them? Why should they have to keep it a secret? Every kid wants to be able to say "I have a baby brother" or "I have a baby sister", no? What happens if they accidentally let it slip?

I think the problem lies more with the secrecy surrounding it. I think it would be different if they'd said "Our baby has been born a boy, but we are letting him choose what gender roles he takes on himself as he grows and matures. We aren't going to subscribe to societal norms by putting the male role onto him" for example.

I'm generally not a big fan of secrets and lies, which is why this whole thing irks me a bit.

Well,they're not lying to anybody, but I agree it is unfair to ask their other children to keep a secret. However, you also seem to be extrapolating from very little information about this family that they are being fanatical about concealing Storm's gender and intend NEVER to reveal it to ANYONE. I don't think it's anywhere near that extreme from reading the mother's comments. Kids are always running around naked - it's likely that lots of people happen to have caught a glimpse of Storm's crotch and are therefore in on the secret.

When I look after kids up to the age of four or five, depending on the kid, whether they are boys or girls, we all go to the same public bathroom - the womens. Same with swimming pools and the like. Storm is not even 2 - (s)he does not have to confront any awkward restroom-related personal choices for several years to come. I think it is reasonable to assume that by then (s)he will have pretty much settled on a preferred pronoun and gender identity. Presumably with hir parents' complete support and encouragement.

 

[Alceste]

Well my comment was the result of not reading the article entirely and reading subsequent responses which was my mistake. Home schooling children is fine but its a bit problematic on teaching their kids their sex at home but as you say "not telling the outside." I don't recall parents alerting the outside that their child has a penis or a vagina. Again its social norm that kids develop an understanding of who they are sexually. In my humble opinion these parents are sheltering their kids.

Every time someone asks if a baby is a boy or a girl they are basically inquiring as to the nature of that child's genitalia.

I have an advantage in that I actually read a lot of extra articles - including one written by the mum - on the subject because the one the OP linked to was far too light on context and facts for my taste.

Gender identity is more of a psychological stage of development than a "social norm". I can't see any way attempting to delay the impact of arbitrary social conditioning relating to gender (i.e. boys wear pants, not dresses!) can possibly interfere with a child's normal psychological development.

 

[Barcode]

I find the following comment problematic:

"What we noticed is that parents make so many choices for their children," Stocker said in a story in the Toronto Star. "It's obnoxious."

The whole point of raising kids is to make choices for your children.

 

[blackout]

I find the following comment problematic:

"What we noticed is that parents make so many choices for their children," Stocker said in a story in the Toronto Star. "It's obnoxious."

The whole point of raising kids is to make choices for your children.

wow.

I find the following comment problematic:

The whole point of raising kids is to make choices for your children.

... and 'problematic', is a huge understatement.

 

[Alceste]

It occurs to me that girls have it easier than boys do, at least in terms of toys and style. A little girl who refuses to wear dresses has a much easier time than a little boy who refuses to wear anything but, and a girl who plays with trucks has an easier time than a boy who plays with dolls.

That makes me very sad for little boys.

 

[Alceste]

I find the following comment problematic:

The whole point of raising kids is to make choices for your children.

 

[Barcode]

Every time someone asks if a baby is a boy or a girl they are basically inquiring as to the nature of that child's genitalia.

I have an advantage in that I actually read a lot of extra articles - including one written by the mum - on the subject because the one the OP linked to was far too light on context and facts for my taste.

Gender identity is more of a psychological stage of development than a "social norm". I can't see any way attempting to delay the impact of arbitrary social conditioning relating to gender (i.e. boys wear pants, not dresses!) can possibly interfere with a child's psychological development.

Of course gender identity is a psychological state only to be emphasized by social structures and influences. When i mentioned the bathroom example, that was one example of a social influence. Society has ways to influence us and regardless of our own personal philosophy social influence is inevitable.

 

[Barcode]

wow.

I find the following comment problematic:




... and 'problematic', is a huge understatement.

I don't get it....

 

[blackout]

I don't get it....

Somehow, I'm not suprised.

 

[Barcode]

Somehow, I'm not suprised.

Well if you don't care to explain then I'll leave it at that

 

[blackout]

It occurs to me that girls have it easier than boys do, at least in terms of toys and style. A little girl who refuses to wear dresses has a much easier time than a little boy who refuses to wear anything but, and a girl who plays with trucks has an easier time than a boy who plays with dolls.

That makes me very sad for little boys.

The world/society, is very bossy.


Parents also, of course, make up a large part OF that very bossy world/society.

If individuals did not "participate" in all of the bossiness,
"society" at large would not be bossy.
(that's when you find out the true colors of your leadership/s)

Pier pressure does not work
when piers refuse to levy "pressure", or be "pressured".

 

[Rakhel]

I am just this side of shocked that it is mostly women that are understanding this.

 

[Marble]

They are not "genderless inside the home" - everybody in that family knows what everybody else is packing under the hood. The parents simply decline to inform people outside the immediate family of Storm's gender.

What about their grandparents?
According to the article it was not revealed to them eighter.

 

[Alceste]

Well if you don't care to explain then I'll leave it at that

I can explain. The idea that children are little blobs of play-dough to be molded into the form we desire is reprehensible to me. The comment that the "whole point" of having children is to make their decisions for them is deeply disturbing. It may sometimes be necessary to make decisions for children - for example, drawing the line at "ice cream for supper" - but is it really the whole point of having children?

 

[Alceste]

What about their grandparents?
According to the article it was not revealed to them eighter.

What about them? Do they have an inalienable right to know all about Storm's genitals?

 

[Rakhel]

Now you know that the first thing grandparents do once they find out the sex of any baby.

They buy and buy and buy. Girl clothes for girls and boy clothes for boys. Dollies for girls and baseballs for boys. and so on and so on and so on.