Torture Monkey stands firm

[crystalonyx]

Bush/Cheney have tortured and murdered tens of thousands in the illegal war in Iraq. They should be impeached and put on trial for war crimes.

 

[Smoke]

And just so YOU know, I didn't know they were Democrats.

So that wasn't my point.

So you were justifying firebombing and the use of nuclear weapons?

 

[sandandfoam]

Thankyou for the compliment. As I said, I am not pro-torture. But I don't know enough to condemn Pres. Bush over this.

I do not think Bush is evil, crazed, or stupid. I think he's doing the best he can to protect our country. So far, it's working, as there haven't been anymore 9/11's. He's made mistakes, but he's dealing with things our country has little experience with.

I'm tired of the insults, name-calling, and complete disrespect. He is our president, elected by the people. Debate and disagreement, yes. Insults, no. Also, as I said, I couldn't stand our previous president. But he was our president and I respected the office. I would have defended him against insults and name-calling just as much.

From the outside it seems to me that Bush and the current attitude to torture/rendition etc are in stark contrast to the principles for which I always took America to stand.
Waterboarding and the like make the enemies of the US the victors. If America were to turn into a police state everyone would be safer from the already proportionately small threat posed by terrorists. But wouldn't that be missing the point ?
Also he's not dealing with things your country has little experience with, he's dealing with things your country has created. Who backed Saddam and Bin Laden ?
As regards insults to Bush, if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck ....

 

[rheff78]

Bush/Cheney have tortured and murdered tens of thousands in the illegal war in Iraq. They should be impeached and put on trial for war crimes.

First off, illegal war? Tell me how it's illegal. He saought Congressional approval for this action and he got it. There is nothing illegal about this war. Second, I think Fish is getting a bad rap here. I'm sure if there were another alternative then she would be for it. She's right about one thing, the United States is not going to be perfect in all the world's eyes, no matter what it does. We're caught between the proverbial rock and a hard place. Do we take the necessary steps to try and insure the secruity of the nation, or try to please everyone else and open us up to futher attacks? Alll you can do is make the best decision you think is right for the nation. And I put it to you again, can anyone think of an alternative?

 

[rheff78]

From the outside it seems to me that Bush and the current attitude to torture/rendition etc are in stark contrast to the principles for which I always took America to stand.
Waterboarding and the like make the enemies of the US the victors. If America were to turn into a police state everyone would be safer from the already proportionately small threat posed by terrorists. But wouldn't that be missing the point ?
Also he's not dealing with things your country has little experience with, he's dealing with things your country has created. Who backed Saddam and Bin Laden ?
As regards insults to Bush, if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck ....

Bush wasn't Pres when the US first had dealings with Saddam and Bin Laden. He's having to deal with a problem he inherited. I'm not a Bush apologist, but you have to get your figures right if there is to be Bush bashing going on.

 

[sandandfoam]

Bush wasn't Pres when the US first had dealings with Saddam and Bin Laden...... but you have to get your figures right if there is to be Bush bashing going on.

I never said he was.
What about the rest of the post ?

 

[Sunstone]

She's right about one thing, the United States is not going to be perfect in all the world's eyes, no matter what it does.

Strawman.

 

[Mister_T]

Strawman.

Come to think of it, show me one country that that the world generally considers to be perfect.

 

[Starfish]

Bush/Cheney have tortured and murdered tens of thousands in the illegal war in Iraq. They should be impeached and put on trial for war crimes.

Then why aren't they?

 

[Father Heathen]

I stated this in an earlier thread, but it bares repeating here: The reason Bush is still popular among certain people is that all you have to do is wave around a flag and a bible and they'll overlook your corruption and incompetence.

 

[Valjean]

First off, illegal war? Tell me how it's illegal. He saought Congressional approval for this action and he got it. There is nothing illegal about this war. Second, I think Fish is getting a bad rap here. I'm sure if there were another alternative then she would be for it. She's right about one thing, the United States is not going to be perfect in all the world's eyes, no matter what it does. We're caught between the proverbial rock and a hard place. Do we take the necessary steps to try and insure the secruity of the nation, or try to please everyone else and open us up to futher attacks? Alll you can do is make the best decision you think is right for the nation. And I put it to you again, can anyone think of an alternative?

The war is in violation of both international law and the UN charter. Google -- there are thousands of articles explaining this.

Alternatives? Well, why not invade Mexico rather than Iraq? It's right next door. It would have been much easier to take and subdue, and much les expensive.

 

[Valjean]

Thankyou for the compliment. As I said, I am not pro-torture. But I don't know enough to condemn Pres. Bush over this.

I do not think Bush is evil, crazed, or stupid. I think he's doing the best he can to protect our country. So far, it's working, as there haven't been anymore 9/11's. He's made mistakes, but he's dealing with things our country has little experience with.

I'm tired of the insults, name-calling, and complete disrespect. He is our president, elected by the people. Debate and disagreement, yes. Insults, no. Also, as I said, I couldn't stand our previous president. But he was our president and I respected the office. I would have defended him against insults and name-calling just as much.

The invasion had nothing to do with protecting our country, Starfish. It had to do with PNAC and oil, in my opinion. Iraq was no threat to the US and the Administration knew it.
As far as no more 9/11s. Do you know why we were attacked in the first place? Those responsible made their reasons quite clear in the international press, but America's press did not publish this. Most Americans have no, or completely incorrect, ideas of why we were attacked.

In re: national security. We are both militarily and economically weaker due to this "war." At the same time we've generated many more enemies and increased the threat of a repeat attack.

As for Bush's election, he did not win the popular vote, even despite massive fraud and vote-rigging on the part of the Republican Party. In the end, he was appointed by the courts.

I am not trying to insult or name call either you or Bush, but I suspect you are not aware of the many, serious crimes and usurpations that the Bush administration has commited over the past five or six years.

 

[rheff78]

The war is in violation of both international law and the UN charter. Google -- there are thousands of articles explaining this.

Alternatives? Well, why not invade Mexico rather than Iraq? It's right next door. It would have been much easier to take and subdue, and much les expensive.

The UN? Come on. Different topic altogether. What a waste of time that was/is.

 

[sandandfoam]

The UN? Come on. Different topic altogether. What a waste of time that was/is.

Really, why ?

 

[Valjean]

The UN? Come on. Different topic altogether. What a waste of time that was/is.

We are signatories. That makes UN law US law.
Flouting international laws and treaties, just because we can get away with it and it appears to be inour immediate interest makes us outlaws and bullies -- a rogue state.
The world used to fear the aggression and expansionism of the USSR. Now it's the US that's feared and hated.

 

[sandandfoam]

The UN? Come on. Different topic altogether. What a waste of time that was/is.

I was thinking some more about this post, I'd really like you to explain why you hold this view. I was thinking about the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child - as far as I know the US and Somalia are the only countries not signed up to it. Would this be a position that you endorse ?
In posting this response I am conscious that it not be construed as in any way anti-American because that is NOT my position.
I do think it is relevant to the presidency of George Bush and the international climate he has created that I feel the need to voice such a disclaimer.

 

[Smoke]

The UN? Come on. Different topic altogether. What a waste of time that was/is.

Honorable nations respect the treaties they have signed.

 

[rheff78]

I was thinking some more about this post, I'd really like you to explain why you hold this view. I was thinking about the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child - as far as I know the US and Somalia are the only countries not signed up to it. Would this be a position that you endorse ?
In posting this response I am conscious that it not be construed as in any way anti-American because that is NOT my position.
I do think it is relevant to the presidency of George Bush and the international climate he has created that I feel the need to voice such a disclaimer.

To be perfectly honest, I don't know what you are talking about. Maybe if you could provide me with details or a link then I could give you a better opinion. Maybe I should re-state. It's a waste of time for the US to be in the UN. Just like the League of Nations, it has good intentions but no real power to do anything. I think it does help the smaller, poorer nations have a say in world affairs, but lacks any REAL power. Just my opinion.

 

[Mister_T]

The UN? Come on. Different topic altogether. What a waste of time that was/is.

So because a handful of individuals view the U.N. as irrelavant, it' then ok to break the laws set in place for the U.S. to adhere to? That's funny coming from a group that is so adament about their own international laws being upheld.

More of that selctive cherry-picking by hardcore right-wingers.

 

[sandandfoam]

To be perfectly honest, I don't know what you are talking about. Maybe if you could provide me with details or a link then I could give you a better opinion. Maybe I should re-state. It's a waste of time for the US to be in the UN. Just like the League of Nations, it has good intentions but no real power to do anything. I think it does help the smaller, poorer nations have a say in world affairs, but lacks any REAL power. Just my opinion.

If you don't know what I'm talking about wouldn't you be better finding out about the UN before writing it off as a waste of time ?