Touchy Question

[jonny]

Does anyone here ever feel like Abrahamic religions in general are "club exclusive"?

Yeah. This is something I'm pretty critical about in the past. I don't like it.

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/religious-debates/52889-contradiction-mormondom.html#post853709
http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...22860-embarrassed-christian-2.html#post271401
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/religious-debates/17339-clearing-up-mormonism-3.html#post213985

 

[logician]

"
Does anyone here ever feel like Abrahamic religions in general are "club exclusive"?
"

Yes, to the point that it affects the workplace to a certain degree. It's better to not let people know you're not a member of the club.

 

[madhatter85]

True. I guess the Temple access and sacred marriage and a lot of rituals LDS specific is what I was hinting to. It almost reminds me of Judaism where only the most clean preist could enter the "holy of holies" .... is that what it's based on?

The temples we are constructing now, (127 in operation 12 more under construction or announced) are restoration of the ancient Jerusalem Temples, and of the ceremonies and proceedings practiced in Jerusalem Temples.

The idea is that "no unclean thing can enter into the house of the Lord." There really is no such thing as a "casual" or "conservative" LDS, you either are living it's teachings, or you aren't.

our temples are most sacred, (not to be confused with Secret, we tell people what goes on in there for the most part, some things are even more sacred and are only to be discussed within the temple walls.) but we hide nothing. If people wish to partake of the blessings that is offered it is up to them to decide if they want to be worthy. we extend the invitation to all.

 

[Buttons*]

The temples we are constructing now, (127 in operation 12 more under construction or announced) are restoration of the ancient Jerusalem Temples, and of the ceremonies and proceedings practiced in Jerusalem Temples.

The idea is that "no unclean thing can enter into the house of the Lord." There really is no such thing as a "casual" or "conservative" LDS, you either are living it's teachings, or you aren't.

our temples are most sacred, (not to be confused with Secret, we tell people what goes on in there for the most part, some things are even more sacred and are only to be discussed within the temple walls.) but we hide nothing. If people wish to partake of the blessings that is offered it is up to them to decide if they want to be worthy. we extend the invitation to all.

This could be due to culture, but one of my friends told me that in Utah, if you aren't mormon that the kids in school will make fun of you for it. I think somehow it's still a club, and either kids are just looking for ways to be mean, or their parents truly didn't get their kids to understand what it is to be Christian.

 

[madhatter85]

This could be due to culture, but one of my friends told me that in Utah, if you aren't mormon that the kids in school will make fun of you for it. I think somehow it's still a club, and either kids are just looking for ways to be mean, or their parents truly didn't get their kids to understand what it is to be Christian.

Quite a few years ago our Prophet, during General Confrence, chastised people in the church for actions against peopel of other faiths.
He told of a story where a girl ripped a crusifix off another girl's neck and scoffed at her for being catholic. his words "This greatly distrubs me" he spoke long and hard and harsly against people in the church who do such persecuting things.

some LDS families unfortunately don't raise thier kids with as much dicipline as I would like to see, and they grow up being extremely obnoxious. It has to do with proper parenting, and kids just looking for ways to be mean, which also stems from parenting.

 

[jonny]

This could be due to culture, but one of my friends told me that in Utah, if you aren't mormon that the kids in school will make fun of you for it. I think somehow it's still a club, and either kids are just looking for ways to be mean, or their parents truly didn't get their kids to understand what it is to be Christian.

Kids make fun of each other for everything. This doesn't surprise me. I lived in Utah until I was eight and didn't realize that other religions existed until I was ten or so. I couldn't believe it.

 

[Booko]

I keep forgetting that yall are Abrahamic... actually, I dont know anything about your faith... sorry about that. I could edit the post to post a disclaimer about Baha'i... but I think that's sort of silly. I'm sure if I looked, I'd find something. (If anyone looks hard enough, they'll find what they're looking for, if ya know what i mean )

Well, we're more clearly Abrahamic, but not limited to that, as we trace our existence back through Eastern religions as well.

But we are listed as Abrahamic!

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Some of them. Allthough for most of them Heaven is the exclusive club in which only members of there very own church can get into.

 

[madhatter85]

In the book of Mormon, Alma The Younger goes forth preaching to a very wicked city of Nephites telling them that thier brothers, the Lamanites who hate them and seek to destroy them, have the mercy of God upon them, because they were taught wrong by thier fathers. That the Nephites who were brought up in the proper traditions of thier fathers who knew better will surely be destroyed because of thier wickedness.

This goes for any other group of people. God has mercy on those who ignorantly sin, and are raised in the unrighteous traditions of thier fathers. Those who were not taught the proper ways of the Lord. The sins of those are placed on the heads of the fathers and forefathers who knew better and did nothing.

LDS Memebers believe we will be judged more harshly than anyone else on the earth, because we believe have a fulness of the udnerstanding of the gospel. and with that knowledge comes great blessings, but even greater judgements on our sins, because we know better.

Those who know better will be judged according to thier knowledge. It is harder for a person who truely knew better to repent of something than someone who just found out what they have been doing was a sin.

So really, "Heaven" to LDS members is not an exclusive club, we believe that only those who partake in the blessings of the truth will be exalted in the Kingdom of God, but those who do not know the truth, will not be cast off but have a chance to learn the truth in the hereafter and still live with our Heavenly Father. Hence why we do proxy baptisms and work for the dead in Temples, so that all those who have gone on before us ignorantly have those blessings in the hereafter before the great and terrible judgement.

 

[Quiddity]

I guess it wont make sense to people who don't view things the way I do... so it'll be difficult for us to be on the same page where this is concerned, I think. I dont know much about religions that aren't Abrahamic. (Go figure huh?) And even then, I admitedly know nothing about Islam (except for the basics and pillars) and Baha'i. The way I see it is this:

When compared to religions that host a more mystical view of life/spirituality. It's a very individual concept. To me, literalist traditions have more of a "club" feel to them. Through history, if you weren't part of this club, you were you in danger of being murdered for your belief or for blasphemy. I'm not a fan of literalistic or organized religion, as many can tell. I just feel as though Abrahamic religions have much more of a division between faiths/denominations than others who focus moreso on enlightenment.

I don’t know why you thought “somehow, I dont think you will”. It’s not a difficult concept to grasp and you certainly aren’t the first or last to think this way. I went from absolutely being anti-catholic, anti-corporatist, etc. to being catholic.

But let me explain why I think it’s a mistake to attribute this to Abrahamic religions alone. The club exclusive syndrome (CES) is basically Sociology 101. It’s a very natural group behavior to behave, think, and act in similar ways. “Conditions” is actually what causes CES on both a group level and individual level. To put it simply, we all have the power to exclude and we do so because we have conditions that we consciously or sub-consciously place on our relationships with others. In a group setting whatever the group agrees on usually becomes the groundwork for conditions and it becomes readily apparent and clearer in a group. It’s just something we all do on both an individual and group level. So what gives? Why do people mostly have beef with Abrahamic religions? The reasons are everything from personal to people hating to “fit” into a prescribed box or having what I call anti-corporatist mentality.

Whatever it is, I think it’s mostly the actions of some Abrahamic religions that people have a problem with. Trying to connect bad actions to their beliefs is a whole other story and not an easy task.

 

[TashaN]

In groups that are truly "hooked on faith" they have a way of excluding those who don't quite fit in to a standard. Don't you agree?

I like the part when you say "hooked on faith'

Well, i don't think in Islam we are excluding anyone!

Everybody is invited to attend mosques and sit with the muslims, etc. But if you mean that some people will be excluded just because the others know stuff about the religion more than him so he/she just have to sit and listen and maybe, ask questions too.

Hmmmm, or maybe you mean that someone can be a muslim unless he go through some steps .....

In this case, regarding Islam, all what you have to do is to bear witness that there is no god but God "Allah", and Mohammed is the apostle of Allah, and of course you have to mean what you say and understand the meaning of this statement. That's all.

 

[Buttons*]

I don’t know why you thought “somehow, I dont think you will”. It’s not a difficult concept to grasp and you certainly aren’t the first or last to think this way. I went from absolutely being anti-catholic, anti-corporatist, etc. to being catholic.

But let me explain why I think it’s a mistake to attribute this to Abrahamic religions alone. The club exclusive syndrome (CES) is basically Sociology 101. It’s a very natural group behavior to behave, think, and act in similar ways. “Conditions” is actually what causes CES on both a group level and individual level. To put it simply, we all have the power to exclude and we do so because we have conditions that we consciously or sub-consciously place on our relationships with others. In a group setting whatever the group agrees on usually becomes the groundwork for conditions and it becomes readily apparent and clearer in a group. It’s just something we all do on both an individual and group level. So what gives? Why do people mostly have beef with Abrahamic religions? The reasons are everything from personal to people hating to “fit” into a prescribed box or having what I call anti-corporatist mentality.

Whatever it is, I think it’s mostly the actions of some Abrahamic religions that people have a problem with. Trying to connect bad actions to their beliefs is a whole other story and not an easy task.

This may be so, and yeah, to a degree one person excludes or includes other people on a daily basis. I just seem to feel that the rites of passage for Abrahamic religions are somehow more clublike than others.

I have a beef with things I see every day that make me go, "....what the heck?" And I also have a problem with people who's statements are so ill informed that they flock without understanding. Call me nuts, but I find that there are more Pagans who actually have given thought to their faith than bandwagon. Or are so frightened about going to hell that they cling to anything that is offered.

It almost seems like advertising gone wrong:
"if you dont want hell, jump on in .... but otherwise be prepared to swim with the sharkies!"

The problem I have is that most people focus on the HELL bit, and not the actual faith part. THE PEOPLE ON RF GENERALLY AREN'T THIS WAY! (At least, so I've seen... and if they are, they quickly become aware that they have been mistaken, or are at least challenged to explore their faith a bit more.)

Back to thread topic:

Is it just a cultural thing that makes Abrahamic religion club exclusive? What do you think?

 

[Buttons*]

I like the part when you say "hooked on faith'

Well, i don't think in Islam we are excluding anyone!

Everybody is invited to attend mosques and sit with the muslims, etc. But if you mean that some people will be excluded just because the others know stuff about the religion more than him so he/she just have to sit and listen and maybe, ask questions too.

Nah, Islam does a pretty good job of inviting people to join their faith without the "or go to hell-fire" bit...

I admit that my knowledge of Islam is very limited. I'm not quite sure how to respond yet. Let me think about this some more.

Hmmmm, or maybe you mean that someone can be a muslim unless he go through some steps .....

In this case, regarding Islam, all what you have to do is to bear witness that there is no god but God "Allah", and Mohammed is the apostle of Allah, and of course you have to mean what you say and understand the meaning of this statement. That's all.

Well I meant that in a way... but not simply the rites of passage. I know that I'm a bit confusing when I express myself. Especially in a debate setting where I'm not fully informed. (As anyone would.)

Like I said, I'll have to go and explore a little for myself before I can make a good reply. Sorry guys.

 

[Quiddity]

Is it just a cultural thing that makes Abrahamic religion club exclusive? What do you think?

Well, Abrahamic religions have numerous cultures within its walls, so I highly doubt it’s the culture. Some of them have a hard time living side by side, let alone being the same or similar. You can find this within Paganism, Hinduism, etc. So like I said, it’s not immune to other religions.

 

[Ozzie]

Does anyone here ever feel like Abrahamic religions in general are "club exclusive"?

Yes but I find if you bark loud enough at the back door they let you in.

 

[logician]

I think Abrahamic religions as a whole will take anyone, however, individual churches or temples can be very "clubish".

 

[Booko]

This may be so, and yeah, to a degree one person excludes or includes other people on a daily basis. I just seem to feel that the rites of passage for Abrahamic religions are somehow more clublike than others.

Rites of passage? I'm not sure what you mean here.

I have a beef with things I see every day that make me go, "....what the heck?" And I also have a problem with people who's statements are so ill informed that they flock without understanding. Call me nuts, but I find that there are more Pagans who actually have given thought to their faith than bandwagon. Or are so frightened about going to hell that they cling to anything that is offered.

Ash, I think this is also Sociology 101. It's been my experience that the average Baha'i has given more thought to their faith as well. But that's because most of us are *converts*. The same thing is true of pagans.

When you're looking at any group so full of converts, it seems normal that they would have put more thought into it than someone who is just following what they were raised in. You can't fake it so well joining a completely different religion.

 

[Booko]

Well, Abrahamic religions have numerous cultures within its walls, so I highly doubt it’s the culture. Some of them have a hard time living side by side, let alone being the same or similar. You can find this within Paganism, Hinduism, etc. So like I said, it’s not immune to other religions.

There may be something to the Western worldview that lends itself to a more exclusive view, though.

For example, it's kinda unimaginable for the average Westerner to accept that someone could belong to more than one religion at the same time. People in the East seem to have much less difficulty believing it is possible to be Buddhist/Shinto or Buddhist/Taoist, for just a couple of examples.

We do have a cultural habit of looking at the parts rather than the whole. The Eastern tendency is to look at the whole and not focus in on the parts.

It'll be nifty when we put those cultural tendencies together in a way where they complement each other, but that's another thread.

Anyway, it may have something to do with any club tendency in Abrahamic religions. It's a cultural accident that stems from our migration west from Central Asia, it seems.

 

[Quiddity]

There may be something to the Western worldview that lends itself to a more exclusive view, though.

For example, it's kinda unimaginable for the average Westerner to accept that someone could belong to more than one religion at the same time. People in the East seem to have much less difficulty believing it is possible to be Buddhist/Shinto or Buddhist/Taoist, for just a couple of examples.

We do have a cultural habit of looking at the parts rather than the whole. The Eastern tendency is to look at the whole and not focus in on the parts.

It'll be nifty when we put those cultural tendencies together in a way where they complement each other, but that's another thread.

Anyway, it may have something to do with any club tendency in Abrahamic religions. It's a cultural accident that stems from our migration west from Central Asia, it seems.

Hmm...

I see what you mean. In my whoopin 28 years of age I can't say I've read and heard that the West is more exclusive though. In fact it is in the East that religious conflict is more rampant. It is in the East where religions (or religion all together) are more often excluded or banned. I guess "the whole" can very easily be broken into parts when your neighbor annoys you?

 

[gnostic]

:biglaugh:

Your Giant Panda avatar is still as playful (and cheeky) as ever, Buttons.