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Toward a definition of 'Islamic fascism'

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
"This nation is at war with Islamic fascists who will use any means to destroy those of us who love freedom," President George W. Bush said last week after Britain announced it had foiled a plot to blow up airliners over the Atlantic. I have been pondering since then his description of the enemy. What are "Islamic fascists," and does this phrase make sense in describing America's adversaries?

The judicious columnist's answer is, of course, "yes" and "no." A look at the history of fascism produces some startling parallels to the revolutionary movements that have swept Iran and other Muslim countries over the past several decades. But the phrase is misleading, both in its sweeping reference to Islam and in its evocation of another century and another war.

One of the old college textbooks gathering dust in my basement is Ernst Nolte's "Three Faces of Fascism," a classic study of the social forces that created fascist movements in France, Italy and Germany during the 1920s and 1930s. It's a dense book, but it concludes with one unforgettable insight. Fascism, Nolte said, is "resistance to transcendence." By that, he meant that fascism was a rebellion against the liberating but destabilizing transformations of modern society.

In the countries where it took root, fascism began as a middle-class assault on the liberal elites who were creating that era's version of globalization. Jews were a special target, but they were also symbols of a larger internationalist movement. In one passage, Nolte described the focus of fascist protest in language that might apply to today's globalized world: "The leading class performs its task of establishing the technical and economic unity of the world, and emancipating all men for participation in this undertaking, in ever new political and intellectual compromises with the hitherto ruling powers: It is the society of synthesis."

The fascist revolt against "transcendence" was driven in part by rage against the perceived corruption of the European elites, who were thought to have grown rich during the booming, inflationary years of the 1920s at the expense of the hard-working middle class. The final malign motivation in Germany was shame and indignation over the nation's defeat in World War I. Fascism gave ordinary people an explanation of what had gone wrong in their lives - and someone to blame.

I do see many of these same factors in the growing popularity of radical Islam in the Middle East. The baseline for this movement remains the Iranian revolution of 1979, which exploded in the region's most modern and, if you will, "transcendent" state. Shah Mohammad Reza Pahlavi's Iran was rushing to embrace the global economy. Its elite was liberal, secular, international - and also wretchedly corrupt. Ordinary Muslims felt, with some justice, that they were being left out of the spoils of this new Iran - that their hard work was being used to buy mansions on the Cote d'Azur. That radical populism lives on in President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, dressed in his ostentatiously humble golf jacket.

I remember how that revolutionary indignation swept the Middle East in the early 1980s, when I first began covering the region. The most popular preacher in Cairo in 1981 was Sheik Kishk, who would ridicule the corruption and Western ways of Egyptian President Anwar Sadat and his family. A few months later, Sadat was murdered by Muslim terrorists.

Today's Muslim radicals, like the Nazis in Germany, gain support by promising dignity for a people who feel shamed by defeat in war. That's the appeal of Hizbullah's leader Hassan Nasrallah: The Arabs feel they have suffered 40 years of military humiliation from Israel. Nasrallah offers the tonic of defiance and, for the moment at least, a sort of victory. That makes him a hero, even though he brought on the ruination of Lebanon.

Back to Bush and his "Islamic fascists." In many ways, this phrase does capture the rage that fuels America's enemies. What is most pernicious about the movement is that, as with European fascism, it has made Jews the symbol for larger forces that confound angry Muslims. This is perverse: The corrupt elites who obstruct Iranians, Egyptians, Syrians and Saudis today aren't Israeli Jews but their own rulers and their legions of fixers and bagmen.
Yet I balk at the term. The notion that we are fighting "Islamic fascists" blurs the conflict, widening the enemy to many if not all Muslims. It's as if we were to call Hitler and Mussolini "Christian fascists," implying that it is their religion, not resistance to transcendence, that is the root cause of the problem. The revolution that began in Iran in 1979 must be contained so that it doesn't destabilize the region more than it already has. But it will only be broken from within, by people who are at last ready to transcend.

 

kai

ragamuffin
interesting article

by the way Prescott is something of a joke here like his opinions
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
Glad toee you using unbiassed sources.............as for Prescott.......:rolleyes:
 

Booko

Deviled Hen
michel said:
Glad toee you using unbiassed sources.............as for Prescott.......:rolleyes:
I don't know anything about Prescott, but as fascism is association with nationalism, I dont see how "Islamic fascism" makes much sense.

And I do agree with Prescott on this:

"The notion that we are fighting "Islamic fascists" blurs the conflict, widening the enemy to many if not all Muslims."


If Prescott is considered a broken clock by y'all, it's worth noting that even a broken clock is right twice a day.
 

kai

ragamuffin
Booko said:
I don't know anything about Prescott, but as fascism is association with nationalism, I dont see how "Islamic fascism" makes much sense.

And I do agree with Prescott on this:

"The notion that we are fighting "Islamic fascists" blurs the conflict, widening the enemy to many if not all Muslims." i agree there is no need to call them islamic fascists it imediately brings fascists to mind when "they" are a force unto themselves


If Prescott is considered a broken clock by y'all, it's worth noting that even a broken clock is right twice a day.
they call him two jags ,when he was minister for the envirenment he slated mothers for taking their kids to school in cars but had two jaguars himself then a man threw an egg at him as a protest and Prescott punched him in the face on national tv. he recently has admitted an extramarital affair .
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4800827.stm
 

Djamila

Bosnjakinja
I believe anyone who would do such things, attack civilians, loses any right to refer to themselves as Muslims because what they do violates the faith in a most basic and fundamental way.

That said, we still need to be able to identify these people. They all come from a Muslim cultural and religious background, they all claim to be following Islam, so for the sake of brevity I have no problem with terms like Islamic terrorist or militant Islamists. I don't think the terms are accurate, but what are you going to do? Newspapers and governments can't go around saying, "those guys, you know the ones".

As for Islamic fascist - it just doesn't make sense. It's an oxymoron, one cancels out the other so it's like a mute phrase.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Bush and his advisors have been doing semantic gymnastics ever since they decided to go after Saddam under the guise of a "War On Terror". Any other president would probably have stuck it out against Al Qaeda until Al Qaeda was finished. But Bush seems to have had some kind of fixation on Saddam, so he had to redefine the war from a war against Al Qaeda to a War On Terror, to a War against Islamic Fascists, etc.

Until quite recently, a good friend of mine thought we were in a war of the West Against Islam because she'd so often heard these terms "Islamic Fascists", "Islamic Terrorists", etc. bandied about.
 

Faminedynasty

Active Member
Granted there are some similarities between the rise of fascism and the rise of terrorism. Granted there are some similarities in ideology between the two. But all in all I don't think that it is the best term to describe our enemies. And, on a sidenote, I think that mussolini (who was something of an authority on the matter) was quite insightful when he said that fascism is the merger of corporate and government power. And, that being the case, it is a bit funny for Bush to call anyone else fascists.
 

Djamila

Bosnjakinja
Sunstone said:
Until quite recently, a good friend of mine thought we were in a war of the West Against Islam because she'd so often heard these terms "Islamic Fascists", "Islamic Terrorists", etc. bandied about.

Please don't be offended by this, but I feel so strongly about it that I'm not willing to speak diplomatically. People that ignorent deserve to believe all the foolish things they do. It's her own responsibility to investigate such things and learn for herself, I have no sympathy for her. Citizens of any country are not lemmings. You don't just go where the government propaganda puts you. You investigate for yourself.

And this, Islamic terrorism, of all things? With thousands dead in New York, and thousands dead in Iraq, and tens of thousands still there - she doesn't have the common sense or the patriotism or the faith, or whatever you want to call it, to learn what's going on? That makes me very angry.
 

c0da

Active Member
It's as if we were to call Hitler and Mussolini "Christian fascists," implying that it is their religion, not resistance to transcendence, that is the root cause of the problem.

The difference is, Hitler was not claiming to be doing things in the name of god. Not that I agree with the use of the term Islamic fascism, I just thought that was worth pointing out.

Otherwise, a very good article.
 

Booko

Deviled Hen
kai said:
they call him two jags ,when he was minister for the envirenment he slated mothers for taking their kids to school in cars but had two jaguars himself then a man threw an egg at him as a protest and Prescott punched him in the face on national tv. he recently has admitted an extramarital affair .
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4800827.stm

Somehow I am reminded of Arthur "Two Sheds" Jackson. :biglaugh:

Well, we've certainly seen all of these things in our politicians here as well. My Congresswoman recently punched a DC cop and then tried to claim it was a racial thing. Somehow, I was not surprised.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Djamila said:
Please don't be offended by this, but I feel so strongly about it that I'm not willing to speak diplomatically. People that ignorent deserve to believe all the foolish things they do. It's her own responsibility to investigate such things and learn for herself, I have no sympathy for her. Citizens of any country are not lemmings. You don't just go where the government propaganda puts you. You investigate for yourself.

And this, Islamic terrorism, of all things? With thousands dead in New York, and thousands dead in Iraq, and tens of thousands still there - she doesn't have the common sense or the patriotism or the faith, or whatever you want to call it, to learn what's going on? That makes me very angry.

Not everyone is perfect, Djamila. Some very good people do not follow politics closely enough to sort out truth from BS. They have little or no interest to do so. Politics are not important to them. And that is their right.

You can, of course, blame such people for not making politics a bigger part of their life. And that is your right. But I doubt you will persuade many such people that they would be happier making politics more central to their lives.

My ex bimbo secretary, for instance, had no interest whatsoever in politics. She could fall asleep during a three minute attempt to discuss politics with her. But she was a gentle, compassionate person, and taught me a great deal about gentleness and compassion. It takes all kinds to make a world.
 

Djamila

Bosnjakinja
Well, that makes sense I suppose. :foot:

I still think people have a responsibility to know what's going on in the world, especially when their soldiers and their governments are involved in it, when it's being done on behalf of them, and their fellow people are dying in the process? I just think it's absolutely... horrific... for an American to not know as much as they can about the war on terror.
 

kai

ragamuffin
Sunstone said:
Not everyone is perfect, Djamila. Some very good people do not follow politics closely enough to sort out truth from BS. They have little or no interest to do so. Politics are not important to them. And that is their right.

You can, of course, blame such people for not making politics a bigger part of their life. And that is your right. But I doubt you will persuade many such people that they would be happier making politics more central to their lives.

My ex bimbo secretary, for instance, had no interest whatsoever in politics. She could fall asleep during a three minute attempt to discuss politics with her. But she was a gentle, compassionate person, and taught me a great deal about gentleness and compassion. It takes all kinds to make a world.
i agree and politics can be a big turnoff
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Djamila said:
Well, that makes sense I suppose. :foot:

I still think people have a responsibility to know what's going on in the world, especially when their soldiers and their governments are involved in it, when it's being done on behalf of them, and their fellow people are dying in the process? I just think it's absolutely... horrific... for an American to not know as much as they can about the war on terror.

I have often found that people who don't follow politics don't have much of an aptitude for sound political judgements. Perhaps you can think of it like this: Would you want your plumbing done by someone who cared nothing for the art of plumbing? Would you insist that everyone know plumbing merely because good plumbing is crucial to public health and longevity?

On the mere basis of how important plumbing is to us in our societies, you could argue that everyone should be a plumber. But that's not how the world really works. There are some people with much greater interest in plumbing than others. Those of us who lack such an interest or aptitude for plumbing usually defer to their judgement and skills (if we are wise enough to do so).

Just the same, you can make a case that politics is so important everyone should pay it great attention. But for many people, paying it great attention to politics would not change the fact that they have no more aptitude for politics than many people have for plumbing.

Does that make any sense, or should I drink some more coffee, wake up, and think about it again?
 

Booko

Deviled Hen
Sunstone said:
Just the same, you can make a case that politics is so important everyone should pay it great attention. But for many people, paying it great attention to politics would not change the fact that they have no more aptitude for politics than many people have for plumbing.

Does that make any sense, or should I drink some more coffee, wake up, and think about it again?
Yes it makes sense, and yes you should have some more coffee.

As for people who don't stay informed, I'd be willing to bet there are a large number who are simply turned off by the entire enterprise. It's like the adage for addicts, but modified:

Q: How do you know when a politician is lying?
A: They open their mouths.

I can see why so many people have dropped out of voting or paying any attention. To many people, it's like a choice between Tweedledum and Tweedledee, so there's no point in spending any time on it.
 

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Sorry, it seems that some people thought that the one who wrote this article is Prescott but the fact is that i used Prescott comment against Bush just to say that Bush is crap because i don't want to break any political rule in here. :D

If you checked the source given you will find out the one who wrote this article and his name is, David Ignatius and he is a writer in the Daily Star.

Thank you guys for your posts. :)

I'll go back to reply but i'm in a hurry now because i have some exams this week.

See you soon. :)
 

niceguy

Active Member
Djamila said:
Well, that makes sense I suppose. :foot:

I still think people have a responsibility to know what's going on in the world, especially when their soldiers and their governments are involved in it, when it's being done on behalf of them, and their fellow people are dying in the process? I just think it's absolutely... horrific... for an American to not know as much as they can about the war on terror.

I agree with you here. Sure I can understand that some people are disinterested in politics BUT such people has also lost their right to voice an opinon of the matter in my humble opinion. I am not medically trained so my health tips will be very shallow, don't expect me to perform surgery, I can however clean a wound and put a plaster on it. The same principle works for commenting politics, thus only comment what you actually DO understand and hold the rest until you made some basic resarch. The same are true when voting, you don't pick candidates for their fancy names do you?
 
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