Traditionalist vs. Liberalising (Abrahamics)

[Rival]

This is a debate mostly if not exclusively aimed at Abrahamics of all stripes, but as I'm not an Abrahamic I can't take part in a same-faith debate, so I have to put it here.

Inspired by the porn pastor thread Porn Pastor | Religious Forums

Are you more traditionalist or liberal? In matters of dress, sex, sexuality, gender norms, abortion etc. where do you fall in the social attitudes scale? If you're more for liberalising how would you justify this given the general socially conservative nature of the scriptures? If you're a traditionalist, how far do you think it should go and why? Would it involve government?

Please note, I'm not looking for indepth debates on these individual topics, but how you justify your views on them with regards to your religion, scriptures, etc.

 

[Jeremiah Ames]

Not many votes here

Sorry to cancel your vote, Rival

At least we’re both monotheistic

 

[Rival]

Not many votes here

Sorry to cancel your vote, Rival

At least we’re both monotheistic

What do you mean? I didn't vote.

 

[JustGeorge]

I'm not an Abrahamic, but I'll add my two cents anyways.

I'm a little uncomfortable with the afore mentioned Porn Pastor. And that isn't because I care what this woman does in her spare time. I just feel its disrespectful to take a religion and the people in it when you take it and twist it beyond recognition just so you can say you're part of it.

Why not follow a LHP in her position? How about SBNR, or Jesus inspired? Follow a looser path(no pun intended)? There's nothing wrong with not being a part of a specific tradition. Just don't ruin it for others for your own gain.

I feel that if you can't/won't/aren't comfortable with the instruction in a religious tradition, you shouldn't try to force yourself into it. There are hundreds, if not thousands of paths out there. If that's still not enough, one can simply follow their heart.

 

[Jeremiah Ames]

What do you mean? I didn't vote.

Oh.
I just saw us in the thread, sorry.

 

[Rival]

I'm not an Abrahamic, but I'll add my two cents anyways.

I'm a little uncomfortable with the afore mentioned Porn Pastor. And that isn't because I care what this woman does in her spare time. I just feel its disrespectful to take a religion and the people in it when you take it and twist it beyond recognition just so you can say you're part of it.

Why not follow a LHP in her position? How about SBNR, or Jesus inspired? Follow a looser path(no pun intended)? There's nothing wrong with not being a part of a specific tradition. Just don't ruin it for others for your own gain.

I feel that if you can't/won't/aren't comfortable with the instruction in a religious tradition, you shouldn't try to force yourself into it. There are hundreds, if not thousands of paths out there. If that's still not enough, one can simply follow their heart.

Yes.

 

[Jeremiah Ames]

I'm not an Abrahamic, but I'll add my two cents anyways.

I'm a little uncomfortable with the afore mentioned Porn Pastor. And that isn't because I care what this woman does in her spare time. I just feel its disrespectful to take a religion and the people in it when you take it and twist it beyond recognition just so you can say you're part of it.

Why not follow a LHP in her position? How about SBNR, or Jesus inspired? Follow a looser path(no pun intended)? There's nothing wrong with not being a part of a specific tradition. Just don't ruin it for others for your own gain.

I feel that if you can't/won't/aren't comfortable with the instruction in a religious tradition, you shouldn't try to force yourself into it. There are hundreds, if not thousands of paths out there. If that's still not enough, one can simply follow their heart.

Almost all of Christianity and it’s church buildings and their teachings have twisted true Christianity beyond recognition, imo. For all we know, hers may be CLOSER to true Christianity than most others. We really don’t know.
The majority is not necessary correct.
Jesus says something like “only FEW will find him”
That should be something to think about if one is comforted because they’re in a religion with 2 billion other people.

 

[JustGeorge]

Almost all of Christianity and it’s church buildings and their teachings have twisted true Christianity beyond recognition, imo. For all we know, hers may be CLOSER to true Christianity than most others. We really don’t know.
The majority is not necessary correct.
Jesus says something like “only FEW will find him”
That should be something to think about if one is comforted because they’re in a religion with 2 billion other people.

I think there's some truth in this, but l think anyone reading the texts can tell its probable, perhaps not without a shadow of a doubt, but probable, that this isn't too close to the original Christianity. There are scholars out there that can read the texts in their original languages that can shed more light on this as well, if we really wanted to study it(I don't lol)

Though the idea that someone has to be a part of something just because 2 billion other people do it, too, is concerning. I don't say this with hate, but genuine care, because I was there at one time, too. And it sucked to try to mentally twist "hey, I'm still a Christian!" even though I wasn't, and may never have really been, just because I couldn't bear not to be in the majority. The...freedom... I felt when I finally dropped it was liberating, and I don't think I could be my best me if I hadn't dropped a label that didn't work.

 

[Jeremiah Ames]

I think there's some truth in this, but l think anyone reading the texts can tell its probable, perhaps not without a shadow of a doubt, but probable, that this isn't too close to the original Christianity. There are scholars out there that can read the texts in their original languages that can shed more light on this as well, if we really wanted to study it(I don't lol)

Though the idea that someone has to be a part of something just because 2 billion other people do it, too, is concerning. I don't say this with hate, but genuine care, because I was there at one time, too. And it sucked to try to mentally twist "hey, I'm still a Christian!" even though I wasn't, and may never have really been, just because I couldn't bear not to be in the majority. The...freedom... I felt when I finally dropped it was liberating, and I don't think I could be my best me if I hadn't dropped a label that didn't work.

The scholars CAN be completely wrong.
The “church fathers” (and mothers ) can be completely wrong.
All people can be completely wrong.
The religious leaders, the scholars, the scribes, those who had ALL the religious knowledge, during the time of Jesus, were looked upon quite unfavorably by Jesus. I think he called them a bunch of vipers.
Only the Lord can open the eyes of an individual. Until that point, they are blind to the scriptures.
Luke 24:45
Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

Think about what this means.
These are the apostles, who followed Jesus directly on the earth.
These guys had been exposed to the teachings of their religion in the synagogue and temple.
But they could not understand the scriptures UNTIL the Lord opened their minds.
People THINK they know what the scriptures mean, but it’s not possible until the Lord opens their minds.

And the verse up there from Luke only says that they “might” understand.

 

[Rival]

Shameless tagging @Hockeycowboy @nPeace @Deeje @ElishaElijah @Redemptionsong @Trailblazer @Dawnofhope @Xavier Graham SA @Conscious thoughts @Wildswanderer @Brickjectivity

 

[Jeremiah Ames]

The...freedom... I felt when I finally dropped it was liberating,

I hear you there.

Liberating is a beautiful word to describe it.

But I stuck with the label “Christian” because I’m too old to learn something new.


And I have no problem being called a heretic by 99.99% of alleged christians

 

[JustGeorge]

The scholars CAN be completely wrong.
The “church fathers” (and mothers ) can be completely wrong.
All people can be completely wrong.
The religious leaders, the scholars, the scribes, those who had ALL the religious knowledge, during the time of Jesus, were looked upon quite unfavorably by Jesus. I think he called them a bunch of vipers.
Only the Lord can open the eyes of an individual. Until that point, they are blind to the scriptures.
Luke 24:45
Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

Think about what this means.
These are the apostles, who followed Jesus directly on the earth.
These guys had been exposed to the teachings of their religion in the synagogue and temple.
But they could not understand the scriptures UNTIL the Lord opened their minds.
People THINK they know what the scriptures mean, but it’s not possible until the Lord opens their minds.

Its possible. I don't think you can really tell one who 'knows what the scriptures mean' without meeting them... those who have found that inner divinity(for lack of a better term) jus kind of radiate that. But you'll have to forgive me for being skeptical of some.

Kinda like some of the 'mega churches' in the area; their goal is usually money and group think more so than spiritual awakening.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Almost all of Christianity and it’s church buildings and their teachings have twisted true Christianity beyond recognition, imo. For all we know, hers may be CLOSER to true Christianity than most others. We really don’t know.
The majority is not necessary correct.
Jesus says something like “only FEW will find him”
That should be something to think about if one is comforted because they’re in a religion with 2 billion other people.

Seriously? Jesus literally said not to lust. His teaching is not hidden or vague.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Shameless tagging @Hockeycowboy @nPeace @Deeje @ElishaElijah @Redemptionsong @Trailblazer @Dawnofhope @Xavier Graham SA @Conscious thoughts @Wildswanderer @Brickjectivity

I'm fairly traditional in orthodoxy and actions. I'm not saying anyone should have a specific dress code to be a Christian, but Jesus did say " go and sin no more," to the cheating woman. He didn't say: " High five, you go, Girl!"

Some people just want to be associated with Christianity while ignoring all it's most basic tenets. I guess we are the cool religion after all.

 

[Rival]

For those who somehow don't know, I'm a traditionalist.

 

[Jeremiah Ames]

Seriously? Jesus literally said not to lust. His teaching is not hidden or vague.

Ah, yes.

All the Pharisees knew they were completely right and knew that they understood the scriptures perfectly well. They knew it MORE than anyone. (So they thought)
Interesting, how some people today sound a lot like those Pharisees.

Since they were so learned and wise, I’m wondering why Jesus chose to dine with prostitutes and tax collectors, and not them.
I’m thinking the reason is “not hidden or vague”. What do you think?

 

[Jeremiah Ames]

Its possible. I don't think you can really tell one who 'knows what the scriptures mean' without meeting them... those who have found that inner divinity(for lack of a better term) jus kind of radiate that. But you'll have to forgive me for being skeptical of some.

Kinda like some of the 'mega churches' in the area; their goal is usually money and group think more so than spiritual awakening.

I agree with everything you say here 100%.

You have wisdom George. imo

Don’t let anyone tell you otherwise.

I’m guessing the wisdom started arriving once you gave up on your christian church?

 

[an anarchist]

If you're a traditionalist, how far do you think it should go and why? Would it involve government?

I’m a traditionalist (I think, I’m unsure really about the terms.) I don’t think an active porn actor should be preaching, if that makes me a traditionalist then aye that I am.
I don’t think anyone is in a position to judge/shame people who sleep around, but we shouldn’t act like that it’s a-ok.
As an anarchist, I think the government should have no role in any part of our lives, including dictating our behavior as in the government enforcing morality. It is up to the individual to enforce the traditional rules that are set in place to keep us pure.
I hate abortion, for example. But I don’t think I have the right to use government as a tool to prevent anyone from doing so. That choice to do so is between them and God.
So traditionalist? My partner identifies as transgender and gay, and I know for many “traditional” Christians, that’d be a big no no. so maybe I am more liberal than I think

 

[Aštra’el]

I used to be an agent of chaos. A combination of choices and extreme events changed that. In this moment I am inclined to tradition. Among other things, this includes the traditions of those I love and respect who are no longer here, whose only presence in this world is through me and perhaps any others who truly valued them. I see now that they can live on in some way through my actions and who I choose to be. For all they did for me, I can allow a part of them to live on through me.

Though, whether or not I am “Abrahamic” is a matter of interpretation. I worship the Abrahamic God as the highest and greatest God, but I worship several other gods as well to a lesser extent. For what it’s worth, I want Judaism, Christianity and Islam to thrive. Christianity in particular has had a huge influence on my country, and I would see it continue to do so.

 

[JustGeorge]

I agree with everything you say here 100%.

You have wisdom George. imo

Don’t let anyone tell you otherwise.

I’m guessing the wisdom started arriving once you gave up on your christian church?

If I have wisdom, I'm afraid I forgot where I'm keeping it...

I was fortunate enough that I realized I wasn't a Christian(despite wanting to be)in my late teens. The less time I had to waste on a false idea of myself, the better.