Transcendental Satanism

[nightwraith666]

Adramelek:

Thanks for clarifying! May you find that which you seek!

Gnothi seauton!

nightwraith666

 

[Eric Cow]

Seeing as Dr. Aquino is a good friend of mine I just sent him an email asking if he posts on the 600 club as I don't think he would after learning his lesson with alt.satanism many years ago so I think that may be an imposter.

EDIT: I just received an email from Dr. Aquino and yes he does indeed post there occasionally:

Yes this is true. Michael Aquino has made 215 posts at: the 600 club with a recent one on December 25th regarding Karla's (LaVey) Black Xmas. He, Aquino, has been a member there since September 2008. Just wondering, how well do you know him? And as of today he was listed as a top 10 poster in the last 30 days. Just thought some here might find these facts interesting and helpful. Aquino is certainly a gifted writer and some Setians are inspired by that.

 

[KHPR]

Just wondering, how well do you know him?

Quite well. I'm the first person he calls with computer troubles and I dated his step-daughter. I've been to his house for dinner many times and he even gave me a gurkha knife that was given to him by General George Patton, Jr., but I still can get him to give me Barnabas Collins cane or Himmler's dagger.

Xeper,
Magister Robert Adams

 

[Iron Star]

Sanctus Infernus!

I am Adramelek and am new to this forum. I have been a practicing Sorcerer/Satanist for about 20 years now. I have been a member of quite a few LHP groups over the years, namely, the Temple of Set and the Church of Lucifer. The later seemed to cult like for me, however, the ToS showed a lot of potential though there seemed to be a lot petty infighting between some of it's most promenant members, and I myself was blasted for vocalizing my concerns as to the direction this group was going down and I received a lot of flack and hateful responces to my critizisim. It is a Magicians right to complain, after all I was paying $85.00 annually to renew my membership. That's a pretty good chunk of change without knowing where and to whom this money to was to.

In my experience, a lot of leaders of so called LHP groups use there fees, ranging from $200.00, $100.00, to $85.00 for personal income, this isn't right, and until I am proven wrong I have no part of any organized LHP group at this time. In some orgs you send them $200.00 and all you get back is a certificate of membership and a membership card and that's it?:sarcastic

As a life long follower of the Left-Hand Path, for me there is no other way. I am a follower of what I term Transcendental Satanism which embraces the Magical philosophies of Theistic Satanism, Setianism, and to some degree LaVeyian Satanism, as well as many other aspects of the Dark Arts. I and another Magical coleague are also in the process of formulating some ideas to form a group sometime in the future which will be an Initiatory instituion that will embrace all aspects of the Black Arts. This may take some time, a couple of years, but we are determined to bring an alternative to those who truly seek to embrace and explore their inner Magical Selves and the LHP.

In closing, dont get me wrong, I have the uttmost respect for the ToS and the CoS, they have made great strides in bringing Luciferian understanding to the LHP. I and others just feel there needs to be an alternative for those who in there Dark Hearts seek the Mysteries in the Black Arts.

Adramelek

Greetings Adramelek,

I have been involved in the Dark Path for seven years now and have come to similar conclusions as yourself. However, my quest began with the works of Aliester Crowley and the studies of The Church of Satan, The Order of Nine Angles and The Temple of Set. I have looked into others however; most being cults and the rest being mainstream spiritualities.

Still, the fact that most of these so-called Leaders of the Occult Community hoard the money of their members and give little to nothing in return is almost enough to make one sick! Then again, the lack of meat and potatoes in terms of teachings for the practitioner is far worse.

I understand it costs money to survive in this sphere, especially when you have a path only a select minority of the human populous understand. For example, if you speak boldly of the occult, you are ridiculed. If you speak little in passing of it, you are still ridiculed. So how can one really win?

My strategy for this matter of overall world intolerance is just NOT caring WHAT people think of me or what I do and do not believe in.

Also, the last time I checked you could not fire someone from a job just because you dislike their religion. Still, it happens more than it should. (Food for thought).

I also am working on setting up my own group. However, it is years in the future.

 

[blackout]

So much can happen in 3 months time.


Well, and even in a day.

 

[Adramelek]

Ave Iron Star!

UltraViolet is right. A lot can happen in three + months. Since I made that original post I have come to re-embrace my Setianism, it simply is something I cannot deny. I have sworn my Oath of ReBirth and eternal allegiance to Set, who for me is the true Form of the Prince of Darkness.

Xeper em Ma'at.
/Adramelek\

 

[Orias]

You people and your names. Adremelech is the proper way to spell it I believe...anyways. Why give a name to somthing that is everywhere? You cannot define satanism as it is in science, government and the earth. Just like the church most people have been tainted with only the corruption, they believe they are what they are not. You cannot acsend, there is no life after death. Only nothingness. The cruel harsh reality of nothingness. Scary isnt it? Ha...thats why i choose to live my life the way I want...I'd rather not live under a government but you know...it was my choice to be born into existence. You people with you fancy talk and discussion is quite sickening...it is human to question things and for questions to be questioned. But anyways thats not what I really wanted to say. Has anyone here every actually read the LaVeyan Bible? I practiced a number of rituals and I dont believe in any supernatural yet after our rituals I feel somewhat empowered. It is quite strange, but that is where Orias chose me as his title carrier. Haha look at me...life seems to be one big contradiction isnt it? The seven deadly sins...perhaps the seven most common human and animal characteristics. The church and its plagerism of doctrines. Why do religious people bother me so much? Maybe its because of their primitive thought processes. But hold me against my word my arrogance didnt just appear. Or maybe its the black metal and Dimmu Borgir. People hear the word Satan or Satanism and they get scared or nervous around you...why? Are we not just like everyone else? I spend all of my school hours writing doctrines and poems. I have decided to keep a grimior. I think you should all do the same. The youth depend on us to pass down our knowledge and let them know how the Evangelical Church has deceived the passive minds. People dont realize how much religion has torn apart man kind. In the old days only the religious were educated. If it were up to me I would just kill everything because Im sick of it...but my natual instincts say live...so I would rather live in a more realistic society where surreal fantasies are and only will be stories...

 

[Adramelek]

You people and your names. Adremelech is the proper way to spell it I believe...anyways.

Adremelech, Adrammelech, and Adramelek are a few ways to spell it. I simply prefer the later. Set is also spelled Seth, just as Ronnie is also spelled Ronny.

 

[EtuMalku]

You people and your names. Adremelech is the proper way to spell it I believe...anyways. Why give a name to somthing that is everywhere? You cannot define satanism as it is in science, government and the earth. Just like the church most people have been tainted with only the corruption, they believe they are what they are not. You cannot acsend, there is no life after death. Only nothingness. The cruel harsh reality of nothingness. Scary isnt it? Ha...thats why i choose to live my life the way I want...I'd rather not live under a government but you know...it was my choice to be born into existence. You people with you fancy talk and discussion is quite sickening...it is human to question things and for questions to be questioned. But anyways thats not what I really wanted to say. Has anyone here every actually read the LaVeyan Bible? I practiced a number of rituals and I dont believe in any supernatural yet after our rituals I feel somewhat empowered. It is quite strange, but that is where Orias chose me as his title carrier. Haha look at me...life seems to be one big contradiction isnt it? The seven deadly sins...perhaps the seven most common human and animal characteristics. The church and its plagerism of doctrines. Why do religious people bother me so much? Maybe its because of their primitive thought processes. But hold me against my word my arrogance didnt just appear. Or maybe its the black metal and Dimmu Borgir. People hear the word Satan or Satanism and they get scared or nervous around you...why? Are we not just like everyone else? I spend all of my school hours writing doctrines and poems. I have decided to keep a grimior. I think you should all do the same. The youth depend on us to pass down our knowledge and let them know how the Evangelical Church has deceived the passive minds. People dont realize how much religion has torn apart man kind. In the old days only the religious were educated. If it were up to me I would just kill everything because Im sick of it...but my natual instincts say live...so I would rather live in a more realistic society where surreal fantasies are and only will be stories...

Orias - Oriax make up your own mind! :foot:
You are entirely clueless in the understanding of Satanism and its place in this Universe. Instead of making this your 1st post, perhaps you should have used the Search Function and read a bit about what you were about to speak on?

EM

 

[Satans_Serrated_Edge]

I dunno, I think I like this guy. I hope he sticks around.

Welcome, Orias

 

[Xafwak]

Why give a name to somthing that is everywhere?

Universe, space, time, energy. They are named because they have different characteristics from each other.

You cannot define satanism as it is in science, government and the earth.

Satanism is a religion, an idea. Of course it can be determined.

Just like the church most people have been tainted with only the corruption, they believe they are what they are not. You cannot acsend, there is no life after death. Only nothingness. The cruel harsh reality of nothingness. Scary isnt it? Ha...thats why i choose to live my life the way I want...I'd rather not live under a government but you know...it was my choice to be born into existence.

How do you know one cannot ascend? Maybe spiritual study into self and the surroundings may convince people otherwise?

You people with you fancy talk and discussion is quite sickening...it is human to question things and for questions to be questioned. But anyways thats not what I really wanted to say.

Oh but it´s good that if you didn´t want to "say" something you can always delete what you have written before posting it. I don´t believe you don´t like our fancy discussion, otherwise you would have never ended up on this forum.

Has anyone here every actually read the LaVeyan Bible?

Some have, some haven´t. I haven´t read it in its full entirety, there were some parts I didn´t find interesting.

I practiced a number of rituals and I dont believe in any supernatural yet after our rituals I feel somewhat empowered. It is quite strange, but that is where Orias chose me as his title carrier. Haha look at me...life seems to be one big contradiction isnt it?

If you use the supernatural as a tool of self empowerment, it differs very little from the rest of the theistic bunch around here.

The seven deadly sins...perhaps the seven most common human and animal characteristics.

What about them?

The church and its plagerism of doctrines.

What about it?

Why do religious people bother me so much? Maybe its because of their primitive thought processes.

First of all define a primitive thought process. Second, what makes religious peoples´ thought processes more primitive than any other thought processes.

Or maybe its the black metal and Dimmu Borgir.

What about them?

People hear the word Satan or Satanism and they get scared or nervous around you...why? Are we not just like everyone else?

No, generally satanists´ world views differ considerably from those of the mainstream population. And because satanists are different and widely misunderstood, they are feared.

I spend all of my school hours writing doctrines and poems.

I don´t.

I have decided to keep a grimior.

So have I, although I´m trying to find a black, leathered and large book for the final grimoire before writing it. Now I´m just using notebooks.

The youth depend on us to pass down our knowledge and let them know how the Evangelical Church has deceived the passive minds.

I doubt anybody depends on that.

People dont realize how much religion has torn apart man kind. In the old days only the religious were educated.

So?

If it were up to me I would just kill everything because Im sick of it...but my natual instincts say live...

So would you kill or let live?

so I would rather live in a more realistic society where surreal fantasies are and only will be stories...

Aren´t we living in one? I haven´t noticed imagining an unicorn would actually create one.

 

[Orias]

If only you knew. First of all, Laveyan Satanism is not a religion it is a set of philosophies, a way of life. Can you ascend? For all we know of the universe there is no alternate dimension in which we go to when we die. I understand more than you think. I realize that He repesents freedom of thought. Why do only humans "ascend" in the Judeo-Christian belief? If all animals do share the same characteristics wouldn't it be fare for carnal animals to ascend to? Here is an idea of what I know, and any Satanic person should know...the 9 satanic statements: Satan represents vital existence instead of spiritual pipe dreams. Satan represents indulgence instead of abstinence. Satan represents undefiled wisdom instead of hypocritical self-deceit. Satan represents kindness to those who deserve it, instead of love wasted on ingrates. Satan represents vengeance instead of turning the other cheek. Satan represents responisibilty to the responible instead of concern for psychic vampires. Satan represents man as just another animal, sometimes better, more often worse thant hose that walk on all fours, who because of his "divine spiritual and intellectual development," has become the most vicous animal of all. Satan represents all of the so called sins as they all lead to physical, mental, or emotion gratifacation. Satan has been the best friend the church has ever had, as He has kept it in business all these years. I realize that you do not disagree. Maybe you are just trying to get on my nerves. And you take my words to literally I didn't mean that if you thought of a unicorn it would appear. Im speaking of heaven/hell. If it was up to me I would teach the world. But you cannot teach of Satanism when it is openly misrepresented. Also there also different types of Satanists like you and me. I don't believe that there is any higher being. I look to Satan for guidance and well being. There is always disagreements. Why argue with a person that will never take time to listen and comprehend? Instead they critisize because you either think you are better or your beliefs differ. Either way I didn't care for you opinion. I do not think you are stupid, such a judgment cannot be made by simple statements such as yours. But I did learn from you. As your questions have made me strive to perfect my purifacation...or at least thats what I would like to call it. I cannot get mad at you for making me question myself. As I have learned more...after all I am still just a kid. But what separates me, is that I care for knowledge. And I would rather observe silently realizing that my opinions will always be challenged by internet scum. But again that is how we learn.

 

[Orias]

Orias - Oriax make up your own mind! :foot:
You are entirely clueless in the understanding of Satanism and its place in this Universe. Instead of making this your 1st post, perhaps you should have used the Search Function and read a bit about what you were about to speak on?

EM

You cannot make such a judgement from one simple paragraph. I understand that there is balance in everything. I have gone through numerous doctrines and writings of some of the most famous philosophers. You cannot judge something which you have no clue of. I do know that He represents the freedom the mind. If you think otherwise then you have no clue. I don't sway from side to side, I keep my mind and ears open to anything anyone has to say. So if I have no clue, then clue me in...

 

[Orias]

Universe, space, time, energy. They are named because they have different characteristics from each other.

But they are infact the same as they are all in one ultimate demension. Though they specifically have different functions they all operate in the same mysterious, dark way.

Satanism is a religion, an idea. Of course it can be determined.

Satanism is not a religion. It is an idea and concept that goes beyond the belief of a higher being and spirituality. I never said you could not determine the philosophy, but you cannot define it's existence.
How do you know one cannot ascend? Maybe spiritual study into self and the surroundings may convince people otherwise?

Spirituality only exists because of us. What about the other creatures that roam the earth? Do they ascend too? It is a fantasy, not real.

Oh but it´s good that if you didn´t want to "say" something you can always delete what you have written before posting it. I don´t believe you don´t like our fancy discussion, otherwise you would have never ended up on this forum.

What does this have to do with anything? Do you try to tick people off? And I did.

Some have, some haven´t. I haven´t read it in its full entirety, there were some parts I didn´t find interesting.

Shows your understanding and your single minded approach to becomming open minded.

If you use the supernatural as a tool of self empowerment, it differs very little from the rest of the theistic bunch around here.

Anyone has the power to manipulate


What about them?

I already told you they have the characteristics that everyman holds, Pride, lust, greed, wrath, envy, sloth and gluttony. You cannot escape it.

What about it?

They were stolen from the religions previous of them.

First of all define a primitive thought process. Second, what makes religious peoples´ thought processes more primitive than any other thought processes.

Primitive=Not modern. Religious thought process is primitive compared to the scientific approach to seeing the universe.

What about them?

I love black metal. Dimmu Borgir and Amon Amarth, though Amon Amarth isnt black metal...I still love em.

No, generally satanists´ world views differ considerably from those of the mainstream population. And because satanists are different and widely misunderstood, they are feared.

But humanly we are the same. We are all born with the same instinctual characteristics. Just because we look at things different they separate us and look down upon us with discrimination. Damnat quod non intelligunt-The people condemn what they do not understand.

I don´t.

I don't care.

So have I, although I´m trying to find a black, leathered and large book for the final grimoire before writing it. Now I´m just using notebooks.

Me too.

I doubt anybody depends on that.

But the youth does depend on us for we pass down knowledge and example. Without us there would be no them. Just like without the generation before us there would be no them. Where did you gain your knowledge? Dont say you thought of all of it because it is learned. What is learned is passed down. We were born into life only knowing existence afterall.

So?

What is your point in so? Not really a question, more of an aggrivated attempt to anger someone else.

So would you kill or let live?

You cannot kill instinct.

Aren´t we living in one? I haven´t noticed imagining an unicorn would actually create one

You do have a valid point there...but I was speaking of after life.

.

Anything else?

 

[Orias]

I dunno, I think I like this guy. I hope he sticks around.

Welcome, Orias

Why thank you =D

 

[Orias]

ok, but by its very nature satanism is not going beyond the limits of.... its embracing the limits and maling them stronger.... kind of like spiritual steroids...

But I understand what you are saying

How can you define the limits of a believe? When really most people believe in a higher being. Can it really go any farther? My believe is that there is no limits. I don't like to give names to my area of Satanism. Everything I learned of Satanasim I learned from Anton Lavey. That doesn't mean you are restricted to thinking to a certain point. He believed that the mind was meant to be stretched and expanded. And that is what I try to do. Look at view points from all aspects possible, with that your opinions become stronger and more backed up. I do agree with some of what you say, yet I also do agree with Adremalek. First to see you must comprehend, then contemplate. It is human instinct to question things isnt it? If you are embracing the limits and making them stronger isn't that going beyond it?

 

[Orias]

Isn't that what all spiritual belief is supposed to do? Back the limits up and make the belief stronger? You cannot exceed unatural limits so the closest you can get is by pleasing your ego and thinking beyond the stars. Which can all be very hard. But truly there is no limit to what the human mind can do or comprehend, being Satanic ,for me at least, has helped me understand more the way things work in nature and around us. Isn't that going beyond the thought process of everyday people?

ok, but by its very nature satanism is not going beyond the limits of.... its embracing the limits and maling them stronger.... kind of like spiritual steroids...

But I understand what you are saying

 

[Xafwak]

"But they are infact the same as they are all in one ultimate demension. Though they specifically have different functions they all operate in the same mysterious, dark way."

That is beside the point. You said why name something that is everywhere, and I answered.

"Satanism is not a religion. It is an idea and concept that goes beyond the belief of a higher being and spirituality. I never said you could not determine the philosophy, but you cannot define it's existence."

Here our opinions differ. I think satanism is a religion, I don´t think it goes beyond other religious ideas and its existence can be defined.

"What does this have to do with anything? Do you try to tick people off? And I did."

I don´t try to tick anyone off, I don´t find that entertaining. Your first post just happened to be quite unorganized and I had a hard time going through it. You made few actual statements and a lot of throwing concepts around, waiting for the reader to fill in the gaps for you. Therefore I replied with a load of questions. I wanted to understand your post.

"Shows your understanding and your single minded approach to becomming open minded."

There is too much to read and do in the world for me to read something that isn´t fruitful. Just because it was written by Anton LaVey doesn´t mean I have to read it as a Satanist, nor that I would gain anything by doing so. I only read what is worth reading.

"I already told you they have the characteristics that everyman holds, Pride, lust, greed, wrath, envy, sloth and gluttony. You cannot escape it."

You are right, but I don´t see where you´re going by this. If you want to point out the irony in that, you have the wrong audience. You should tell it to those who actually believe in the seven deadly sins.

"They were stolen from the religions previous of them."

The same as above, is there some productive point to this?

"Primitive=Not modern. Religious thought process is primitive compared to the scientific approach to seeing the universe."

Do you value ideas only based on how new they are? I bet not.

"I love black metal. Dimmu Borgir and Amon Amarth, though Amon Amarth isnt black metal...I still love em."

Yay.

"But humanly we are the same. We are all born with the same instinctual characteristics. Just because we look at things different they separate us and look down upon us with discrimination. Damnat quod non intelligunt-The people condemn what they do not understand."

That is unfortunate, but there is very little one can do to change it. It´s a stigmata one has to take when calling themselves satanist.

"I don't care."

Then you maybe understand the futility of what you originally said about doodling in classes. Nobody cares.

"But the youth does depend on us for we pass down knowledge and example. Without us there would be no them. Just like without the generation before us there would be no them. Where did you gain your knowledge? Dont say you thought of all of it because it is learned. What is learned is passed down. We were born into life only knowing existence afterall."

They do, but I meant on this particular issue. There are very few who are willing to listen about the church and its hypocrisy and such. And I don´t think anybody who is interested needs to be told that, because it is so obvious.

"What is your point in so? Not really a question, more of an aggrivated attempt to anger someone else."

My point is that when you state a historic fact as you did in a thread like this, there should be some content relative to the thread´s subject that is supported by the historic fact for it to be useful for the reader. Otherwise you´re wasting everyone´s time.

"You cannot kill instinct."

True to the majority of people, but it can be controlled by anyone.

"You do have a valid point there...but I was speaking of after life."

Then I understand it much better, thank you. But your claim can be reversed: just because you don´t believe in afterlife doesn´t mean it can´t exist. It remains a subject of research, which I think can be falsified to either direction.

The last thing I want to do is to sound condescending. I know nothing of your understanding, knowledge, or experiences, but I want to fully understand what you are saying. For me anything new may be valuable, regardless the source.

 

[Orias]

"But they are infact the same as they are all in one ultimate demension. Though they specifically have different functions they all operate in the same mysterious, dark way."

That is beside the point. You said why name something that is everywhere, and I answered.

"Satanism is not a religion. It is an idea and concept that goes beyond the belief of a higher being and spirituality. I never said you could not determine the philosophy, but you cannot define it's existence."

Here our opinions differ. I think satanism is a religion, I don´t think it goes beyond other religious ideas and its existence can be defined.

"What does this have to do with anything? Do you try to tick people off? And I did."

I don´t try to tick anyone off, I don´t find that entertaining. Your first post just happened to be quite unorganized and I had a hard time going through it. You made few actual statements and a lot of throwing concepts around, waiting for the reader to fill in the gaps for you. Therefore I replied with a load of questions. I wanted to understand your post.

"Shows your understanding and your single minded approach to becomming open minded."

There is too much to read and do in the world for me to read something that isn´t fruitful. Just because it was written by Anton LaVey doesn´t mean I have to read it as a Satanist, nor that I would gain anything by doing so. I only read what is worth reading.

"I already told you they have the characteristics that everyman holds, Pride, lust, greed, wrath, envy, sloth and gluttony. You cannot escape it."

You are right, but I don´t see where you´re going by this. If you want to point out the irony in that, you have the wrong audience. You should tell it to those who actually believe in the seven deadly sins.

"They were stolen from the religions previous of them."

The same as above, is there some productive point to this?

"Primitive=Not modern. Religious thought process is primitive compared to the scientific approach to seeing the universe."

Do you value ideas only based on how new they are? I bet not.

"I love black metal. Dimmu Borgir and Amon Amarth, though Amon Amarth isnt black metal...I still love em."

Yay.

"But humanly we are the same. We are all born with the same instinctual characteristics. Just because we look at things different they separate us and look down upon us with discrimination. Damnat quod non intelligunt-The people condemn what they do not understand."

That is unfortunate, but there is very little one can do to change it. It´s a stigmata one has to take when calling themselves satanist.

"I don't care."

Then you maybe understand the futility of what you originally said about doodling in classes. Nobody cares.

"But the youth does depend on us for we pass down knowledge and example. Without us there would be no them. Just like without the generation before us there would be no them. Where did you gain your knowledge? Dont say you thought of all of it because it is learned. What is learned is passed down. We were born into life only knowing existence afterall."

They do, but I meant on this particular issue. There are very few who are willing to listen about the church and its hypocrisy and such. And I don´t think anybody who is interested needs to be told that, because it is so obvious.

"What is your point in so? Not really a question, more of an aggrivated attempt to anger someone else."

My point is that when you state a historic fact as you did in a thread like this, there should be some content relative to the thread´s subject that is supported by the historic fact for it to be useful for the reader. Otherwise you´re wasting everyone´s time.

"You cannot kill instinct."

True to the majority of people, but it can be controlled by anyone.

"You do have a valid point there...but I was speaking of after life."

Then I understand it much better, thank you. But your claim can be reversed: just because you don´t believe in afterlife doesn´t mean it can´t exist. It remains a subject of research, which I think can be falsified to either direction.

The last thing I want to do is to sound condescending. I know nothing of your understanding, knowledge, or experiences, but I want to fully understand what you are saying. For me anything new may be valuable, regardless the source.

I understand what you mean. Maybe you should read some of my posts regarding the last statement. I understand what you were doing. I have already learned alot from when you posted last. Opinions will always differ, but when I said I write in class, Im saying that is where most of my ideas happen. As I was quick to judgement, but our hearts to hold the same concept. I did not really mean to disrespect you, I just went in head on instead of approaching it rationally. I appreciate your critisizm. Ha, that is how we both learn. We are opposition after all.

 

[EtuMalku]

You cannot make such a judgement from one simple paragraph. I understand that there is balance in everything. I have gone through numerous doctrines and writings of some of the most famous philosophers. You cannot judge something which you have no clue of. I do know that He represents the freedom the mind. If you think otherwise then you have no clue. I don't sway from side to side, I keep my mind and ears open to anything anyone has to say. So if I have no clue, then clue me in...

I would like to apologize to Orias, perhaps I was a bit hasty in my diatribe against you. I may not agree with everything you are saying but I shouldn't have berated you in such a manner.