Transgender etiquette (identity pronoun game)

[Grumpuss]

Yes, you're right. Sorry about that. But it is tough for some people like me to figure out how to deal with people like that.

I suggest prayer is a good place to start. Where God doesn't readily supply an answer, I'll look to the Vatican.

 

[First Baseman]

I suggest prayer is a good place to start. Where God doesn't readily supply an answer, I'll look to the Vatican.

Prayer is definitely in order. I'm not sure the Vatican can be of much help, they probably have the same dilemma I do in that they just can't understand exactly how to deal with it, either.

 

[Demonslayer]

I'm not sure the Vatican can be of much help, they probably have the same dilemma I do in that they just can't understand exactly how to deal with it, either.

"Love thy neighbor"

- some swarthy magical carpenter

Easy answer!

 

[Grumpuss]

Must have taken a lot of deliberation to decide to come out.

That it came at the end of a troubled marriage involving 2 children and a massively popular reality TV show is more than a little suspicious.

In many places they were killed before the choice became acceptable. Still some couldn't help being what they were, at that price.

Where in modern America are such people killed?

No doubt, and your choices also affect many people now. If someone in your family is struggling with this issue and knows your views, they will of course hide them from people like you and stay depressed.

Seeking professional help, either from medical staff or clergy is probably a wiser course of action. Most reputable doctors specializing in gender reassignment won't ever proceed with surgery until a mental evaluation and significant period of observation have passed, is my understanding. Perhaps the Jenner/Kardashian family has sufficient wealth to avoid such obstacles, but it sets a poor example for many people who are simply stupid or confused.

Maybe people's love could do something.

True.

 

[First Baseman]

"Love thy neighbor"

- some swarthy magical carpenter

Easy answer!

Well, yes, of course.

 

[Grumpuss]

Prayer is definitely in order. I'm not sure the Vatican can be of much help, they probably have the same dilemma I do in that they just can't understand exactly how to deal with it, either.

That many transsexuals themselves seem confused by the problem speaks to the complexity of the issue.

I'm encouraged that the Vatican has guidance on the subject.

 

[First Baseman]

It is easy to offend a transgender without meaning to, especially when one has no experience communicating with them.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Conflating gender identity with sexual orientation is completely unwarranted.

I wasn't. I was mearly stating that it can't be changed, much in a way that sexual orientation isn't something you can change.

What "studies" might those be? Forgive me, but while many transitioned people's might end up happy (at least for awhile), I think you are speaking very anecdotally.

http://www.wpath.org/uploaded_files/140/files/Standards of Care, V7 Full Book.pdf
It's all in there. Yes, it's 120 pages, but it doesn't take very long to read, it's written so those without a background in psychology can understand it, and it will likely answer many questions you have.

The science simply isn't there to see how much of transsexualism is a mental condition, and how much of it is choice.

Science is very clear that it isn't a choice.

It would probably depend on how much love and respect that person has for others and God IMO. But of course, you are speaking in generalizations, when there is no cookie-cutter pathway for making difficult decisions.

It has nothing to do with how much respect a transsexual has for others and god. It's not unusual at all for family and friends, employers, coworkers, and others to turn against someone just for being trans.

 

[Grumpuss]

It is easy to offend a transgender without meaning to, especially when one has no experience communicating with them.

I have dealt with a few in my position. They are generally as hard-working and intelligent as anyone else, but deeply conflicted about their place in society and carry significant emotional baggage.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

It is easy to offend a transgender without meaning to, especially when one has no experience communicating with them.

The offense comes from stumbling, blubbering, and making a mistake into a scene. Or when someone is being belligerent, making a scene, and insisting the person is not who they are. And of course some transsexuals are over sensitive, but many times the offense comes from people who are so sure of themselves to sex someone that they end up calling cis-gendered people by the incorrect pronoun.

Where in modern America are such people killed?

http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/201...have-been-murdered-2015-any-other-year-record
http://time.com/3999348/transgender-murders-2015/
http://fusion.net/story/185799/2015-transgender-women-murdered-underreported/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_unlawfully_killed_transgender_people

Most reputable doctors specializing in gender reassignment won't ever proceed with surgery until a mental evaluation and significant period of observation have passed, is my understanding.

Actually, no doctor will. It takes a letter of recommendation from a licensed therapist who specializes in gender therapy in order to recieve hormone therapy, and it requires living full time as your identified sex for at least one year and two letters of recommendation to get genital surgery.

 

[Grumpuss]

I wasn't. I was mearly stating that it can't be changed, much in a way that sexual orientation isn't something you can change.

Of course it can. More than a few stories out there of someone transitioning and then regretting it horribly. Not the same as a man or woman who has been gay from birth or puberty and always known it.

http://www.wpath.org/uploaded_files/140/files/Standards of Care, V7 Full Book.pdf
It's all in there. Yes, it's 120 pages, but it doesn't take very long to read, it's written so those without a background in psychology can understand it, and it will likely answer many questions you have.

Thank you. Again, this is abridged, disputed somewhat and not the definitive source on explaining transsexual motivations.

Science is very clear that it isn't a choice.

Unfortunately, that just isn't true.

It has nothing to do with how much respect a transsexual has for others and god. It's not unusual at all for family and friends, employers, coworkers, and others to turn against someone just for being trans.

That's entirely what it means IMO. Love and understanding by others are key to healing when someone has a drug habit or commits a horrible crime. As Christians, we are obligated to love the sinner and hate the sin instead. The same logic should apply here, even if it seems more difficult.

 

[Grumpuss]

The offense comes from stumbling, blubbering, and making a mistake into a scene. Or when someone is being belligerent, making a scene, and insisting the person is not who they are. And of course some transsexuals are over sensitive, but many times the offense comes from people who are so sure of themselves to sex someone that they end up calling cis-gendered people by the incorrect pronoun.

Seems Touchy.

http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/201...have-been-murdered-2015-any-other-year-record
http://time.com/3999348/transgender-murders-2015/
http://fusion.net/story/185799/2015-transgender-women-murdered-underreported/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_unlawfully_killed_transgender_people

Not very comprehensive. Also, many such deaths happen in the sex industry, which is dangerous and immoral to begin with.

Actually, no doctor will. It takes a letter of recommendation from a licensed therapist who specializes in gender therapy in order to recieve hormone therapy, and it requires living full time as your identified sex for at least one year and two letters of recommendation to get genital surgery.

And yet even still, many transitioned people are unhappy and end up killing themselves. I imagine the statistics of suicide over transsexualism is significantly higher per capita that homosexuals or the rest of the population (excluding veterans).

 

[First Baseman]

The offense comes from stumbling, blubbering, and making a mistake into a scene. Or when someone is being belligerent, making a scene, and insisting the person is not who they are. And of course some transsexuals are over sensitive, but many times the offense comes from people who are so sure of themselves to sex someone that they end up calling cis-gendered people by the incorrect pronoun.

Well, being belligerent is really inexcusable.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

And yet even still, many transitioned people are unhappy and end up killing themselves. I imagine the statistics of suicide over transsexualism is significantly higher per capita that homosexuals or the rest of the population (excluding veterans).

That is not true. Very few kill themselves, and those that do have mood disorders.
It also makes you look pretty lame when you ask for a source, are given a source, and make it clear you didn't consider the source and are inserting your own beliefs that are not supported by science.
And before you keep going on, I am very well educated on the subject of gender dysphoria. I can easily spot when people have read actual facts or stuff that is made up, because I have read a ton of articles and books on the subject, I have studied it, and it is an area of specialization for me.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Well, being belligerent is really inexcusable.

It is, but unfortunately it happens. Like anyone else, transsexuals just want to go about their lives, but there are many (typically men) who go out of their way to give grief and difficulties to transsexuals. It doesn't excuse a transsexual who gets snappy and jumpy, but it is one of those things that necessitates understanding and open hands rather than closed fists.

 

[Grumpuss]

That is not true. Very few kill themselves, and those that do have mood disorders.
It also makes you look pretty lame when you ask for a source, are given a source, and make it clear you didn't consider the source and are inserting your own beliefs that are not supported by science.
And before you keep going on, I am very well educated on the subject of gender dysphoria. I can easily spot when people have read actual facts or stuff that is made up, because I have read a ton of articles and books on the subject, I have studied it, and it is an area of specialization for me.

Please, there is no need for you to be rude.

If the study of transsexuality is your field of expertise, then I assume you would be familiar with selection bias. You seem to ignore a great many sources that dispute your claims without even giving them equal value.

I can introduce valid sources of dissension to your argument as well:

http://www.wsj.com/articles/paul-mchugh-transgender-surgery-isnt-the-solution-1402615120
http://www.cnsnews.com/blog/michael...on-distinguished-fellow-transgender-emotional
http://www.theguardian.com/society/2004/jul/30/health.mentalhealth

It simply isn't settled science, as you seem to be claiming that it is.

While you have made up your mind, many have not, and it is clearly a complex issue unlike any society has faced ever before. I shall bide my time and continue to seek education on all issues. In the meantime, prayer is my most powerful tool to unlocking such understanding, if not compassion.

 

[Acim]

In a gender fluid world, what's the etiquette with using gender pronouns?

I get we should use the person's preferred pronoun, or 'they' is gender neutral, but what about when someone had a significant achievement in their past before they came out as transgendered. The most obvious example is Caitlyn Jenner. Bruce Jenner comes out as a woman named Caitlyn Jenner, great, no problem with that, from that moment on you are now a woman named Caitlyn and we shall use the pronoun 'she'. Easy, done.

But who won the men's decathalon, was name male athlete of the year, and inducted into the track and field hall of fame? Was it the woman Caitlyn or the man Bruce?

I see it as the man Bruce won these things things.

And supposing in the future the woman Caitlyn decides to revert back to the man Bruce, who won woman of the year in 2015, a man named Bruce or a woman named Caitlyn?

It was a woman named Caitlyn.

And we can make this more hypothetical, for example, if George Bush were to come out as transgender, would he be the first woman president?

No. Not in my opinion. Essentially, it is how the person self identifies (publicly) at the time.

And what if this happens after a woman becomes president, does her status as 'first woman president' get rescinded? Or if a woman becomes president and then later becomes transgender, would she still be the first woman president?
Or if Neil Armstrong came out after the moon landing, would he still be the first man on the moon, or would he be the first woman on the moon?
How does transgender apply retroactively? Should it?
And it goes beyond just transgender, really. Who wrote 'When Doves Cry'? Was it Prince, the artist formerly known as Prince, or Prince - the artist formerly known as the artist formerly known as Prince?

Feel I answered the gender ones. I don't believe transgender ought to apply retroactively with regards to public accomplishments. I do think it is debatable. I think if talking directly with the person, it would probably be best to assume it applies, for them, retroactively. But they aren't the only person in charge of their public perception. That's societal.

Regarding Prince, I'm fairly certain Prince wrote "When Doves Cry." The 'Love Symbol' thing occurred later. All songs written under that moniker, ought to be attributed to that symbol, even if it is unpronounceable. That is how the artist self identified publicly at the time.

So what's the etiquette for when someone changes identity? For the average person it isn't really an issue, but when you have significant accomplishments tied to your identity, does the identity tied to those accomplishments change retroactively when the identity is changed in the present or future?

It's all so confusing.

And let's keep this civil OK. This isn't about whether you agree or disagree with being transgender.

The retroactive aspect of this strikes me as a choice proposition and not something that say science or some other endeavor of study could weigh in on without also being political / philosophical. The etiquette, I imagine would only come up if writing a story to be published openly and if it were me, I'd go with how the person self identified at the time publicly. If I were interviewing them, I'd reference that through filter of how they self identify today, but would be as clear as I can that when it comes to time of my writing, I'm going with how they self identified then.

 

[freethinker44]

This thread isn't about whether or not you agree or disagree with transgender people.
If you don't respect their decision to transition or at least want to respect it then this thread probably isn't for you.

 

[First Baseman]

It is, but unfortunately it happens. Like anyone else, transsexuals just want to go about their lives, but there are many (typically men) who go out of their way to give grief and difficulties to transsexuals. It doesn't excuse a transsexual who gets snappy and jumpy, but it is one of those things that necessitates understanding and open hands rather than closed fists.

Yes, this does happen. It is similar to racism. Acceptance of people who are different in some significant way (which really isn't significant at all, just thought to be at the time) takes a long time in society, generally.

Racism ran rampant around Atlanta in the 60's and 70's. Today racism hasn't been eliminated but it has calmed down quite a bit since then. Whites had to learn that blacks aren't really all that different and vice versa.

Acceptance by a populace has to be learned and unfortunately this takes a lot of time, usually.

 

[First Baseman]

This thread isn't about whether or not you agree or disagree with transgender people.
If you don't respect their decision to transition or at least want to respect it then this thread probably isn't for you.

I don't have a problem with a person who wants to change their sex. I have a problem understanding it and dealing with it because it is something that I've never had to deal with before.