Transgender issues: Why blurring the line between men and women is not the problem

[Evangelicalhumanist]

I don't see personal autonomy as something that is "allowed" I guess. I mean, the denial of basic personal autonomy of one human by other humans is... well... erh, I'm just going to leave that there, actually.

But you should go there! The freedom to pursue one's own contentment and happiness must be the very, very first of all of our considerations when we deal with others. Unless how you want to live your life is illegal or harms others, I have absolutely nothing to say about it -- unless you ask. And even then, I must be very circumspect. I can't ever know enough to tell anyone how to live their life.

 

[Shaul]

Girl with Y chromosome sheds light on maleness​

A male who due to a highly unusual condition did not develop testes. "She" is a male, by definition. He happens to not have testes. It is rare but it happens. Just as there are rare cases of genetic females that develop typical male secondary sexual characteristics.

 

[anna.]

A male who due to a highly unusual condition did not develop testes. "She" is a male, by definition. He happens to not have testes. It is rare but it happens. Just as there are rare cases of genetic females that develop typical male secondary sexual characteristics.

She has a normal vagina, cervix and set of ovaries.

 

[Whateverist]

All persons with a Y chromosome are males. ALL of them, not most.

Sez you but no one is listening. Why would they? You’re mighty comfortable telling everyone else what to believe. Not exactly a godly virtue.

 

[Shaul]

She has a normal vagina, cervix and set of ovaries.

He has vagina, cervix and ovaries. He is a male with ovaries, etc. As I wrote. His gender is determined and defined by his chromosomes, not by outward secondary sexual expressions.

 

[Shaul]

Sez you but no one is listening. Why would they? You’re mighty comfortable telling everyone else what to believe. Not exactly a godly virtue.

I am not telling one anything. It is the chromosome that are declaring it. YOU are the one pushing a narrative. I am just stating facts.

 

[Ella S.]

He has vagina, cervix and ovaries. He is a male with ovaries, etc. As I wrote. His gender is determined and defined by his chromosomes, not by outward secondary sexual expressions.

I am not telling one anything. It is the chromosome that are declaring it. YOU are the one pushing a narrative. I am just stating facts.

What medical doctor performs a full genetic sequence on a baby before assigning their gender on their birth certificate?

Very few. They tend to go by anatomy, not chromosomes. In fact, that's how it's been for a few centuries now in the West, and that's why we have the term "transsexual" for someone who undergoes the medical procedure of sexual reassignment surgery in order to change their anatomical sex.

Medically transitioned transgender women would be considered women if you took them in a time machine and dropped them off even 200 years ago. That was also before we were even aware that DNA exists, because "womanhood" has never been defined by our chromosomes. Chromosomal sex is determined by our chromosomes, but that is not the same thing.

You are redefining what a woman is to intentionally exclude transgender women. Why?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

You are redefining what a woman is to intentionally exclude transgender women. Why?

Homophobia?

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

I don't need to. You are the one making an extraordinary claim. The onus is upon you to prove your novel claim.

The onus may be on me to prove this:

I know that these types of threads can be challenging and sensitive - but I want to share my current perspective on trans people, especially trans females.

I understand that some people may feel uncomfortable or threatened by men who express their gender identity in a way that does not conform to the traditional binary of men and women. They may think that this is a problem that needs to be solved.

However, I believe that the real problem is not blurring the line between men and women, but rather creating a rigid and hostile divide between them. This can lead to echo chambers, where people only hear opinions that reinforce their own biases and prejudices. And this can result in harmful and isolated views of the other group.

So, as difficult as it may seem... Not trying to prohibit people to identify as trans females, could actually make female spaces more inclusive and safe, under the right conditions.

And I acknowledge that there are no easy answers to the issues of transgender people and the "politics", as some may call it, around it. But I think that there are more urgent problems to address, before focusing on this. But that's the hard part - the problems that require change are more systemic and complex, and they involve all of us, rather than just one side, to take responsibility - so to speak. Therefore, instead of blaming others, a part of the solution may be to examine our own actions - in general.

I understand that transgender people make up less than 2% of the population. But I believe that this is an issue that will confront everyone sooner or later, and have an impact beyond the trans community.

Edit: Fixed a confusing part of my post.

But not this:

There is no blurry line nor ambiguity. A human male is a person with a Y chromosome. A person without a Y chromosome is female.

You disagreed with my post, which doesn't need proof. But you introduced a new subject in the process.

 

[Ella S.]

Homophobia?

I doubt it, but who knows?

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

I think a good portion of transphobia is caused by cisgender men not wanting to be gay.

What an odd notion! Nobody really wants to be other than they are -- cisgender, straight men don't even think about the possibility of being gay: it's not who they are. Cisgender gay men don't even think about the possibility of being straight; it's not who they are, either.

The only real problem -- the cause of all the hatred and debate, is that some of us don't think other people should be who they are! We suppose that they should be like us. On what basis do we think that? How would we respond to somebody who said, "you shouldn't be like you are, you should be like me?" My answer to that is quite simple: "What makes you think I should be like you, rather than that you should be like me? What is the actual source of your superiority?"

 

[Soandso]

I am not telling one anything. It is the chromosome that are declaring it. YOU are the one pushing a narrative. I am just stating facts.

Your categorization is insufficient and incomplete as it leaves out many intersex people who can have varyingly different chromosomes, often times having chromosomes that are neither X nor Y, but a combination of both. Keep in mind, intersex people make up an estimated 1 in 50 for the population, so we are talking millions in this country alone

Biology isn't as black and white as you'd like it to be

 

[crossfire]

All persons with a Y chromosome are males. ALL of them, not most.

Nope. Swyer Syndrome is genetically XY and develops the typically normal female genitalia. (The angle used in Jurassic Park to make sure all dinosaurs in Jurassic Park are female.)

Here is the wiki article on it.

XY gonadal dysgenesis - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I didn't include any of the medical links on it because many of them contain graphic pictures.

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

I have some concerns some people may have misunderstood my OP. I'll break it down:

However, I believe that the real problem is not blurring the line between men and women, but rather creating a rigid and hostile divide between them. This can lead to echo chambers, where people only hear opinions that reinforce their own biases and prejudices. And this can result in harmful and isolated views of the other group.

I didn't want to spell it out, but I was implying that toxic masculinity was a greater problem than trans females using women's bathrooms.

And I acknowledge that there are no easy answers to the issues of transgender people and the "politics", as some may call it, around it. But I think that there are more urgent problems to address, before focusing on this. But that's the hard part - the problems that require change are more systemic and complex, and they involve all of us, rather than just one side, to take responsibility - so to speak. Therefore, instead of blaming others, a part of the solution may be to examine our own actions - in general.

I was saying that those who point fingers, may need to at times, take a look at themselves.

And if anyone asks if I take a look at myself - yes, on a regular basis. There's at least a dozen threads I've started where I 'took a look at myself'.

 

[crossfire]

All persons with a Y chromosome are males. ALL of them, not most.

Does this also include women who have given birth to sons? Microchimerism among women who have given birth is quite common.

Existence of Microchimerism in Pregnant Women Carrying a Boy!

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

snippet:

A recent study proposes that women approximately at all times obtain fetal cells when they get pregnant. These have been noticed in the beginning of seven weeks of pregnancy. Later, the cells can be disappeared, though the cells may stay for a lifetime. Chan et al. reported that Y chromosomes were present in the brains of 63 percent of 59 deceased older women. Several researches evaluated the cells left behind by sons regarding fetal microchimerism, due to ease for its discrimination from the cells of their mothers (5)​

 

[Twilight Hue]

There is no blurry line nor ambiguity. A human male is a person with a Y chromosome. A person without a Y chromosome is female.

Agree and there also needs to be honesty and truthfulness as well.

A trans person isn't a real woman or man totally equivalent and on par with natural born women or men.

Trans man or Trans woman is a proper and honest description, and is quite acceptable in that light.

 

[Ella S.]

What an odd notion! Nobody really wants to be other than they are -- cisgender, straight men don't even think about the possibility of being gay: it's not who they are. Cisgender gay men don't even think about the possibility of being straight; it's not who they are, either.

The only real problem -- the cause of all the hatred and debate, is that some of us don't think other people should be who they are! We suppose that they should be like us. On what basis do we think that? How would we respond to somebody who said, "you shouldn't be like you are, you should be like me?" My answer to that is quite simple: "What makes you think I should be like you, rather than that you should be like me? What is the actual source of your superiority?"

I do not think it is an "odd notion" at all, but that is subjective.

I have seen firsthand people who are afraid that being attracted to a transgender woman is "gay," people who call even fully transitioned transgender women "traps," and so on. Often, their mid-transition bodies are privately fetishized by the same people who openly oppose them, which can lead to cases where transgender sex workers are murdered by their clients due to their shame.

It leads to social pressure, due to toxic masculinity, away from recognizing transgender women as women because people do not want to be perceived as gay.

Of course it is about people being intolerant of differences, but that is such a shallow reading of the matter. There is not quite the same level of outrage against people who prefer different flavors of junk food. The differences they focus on are not wholly arbitrary, but are due to a variety of cultural, social, and psychological factors.

 

[Ella S.]

I didn't want to spell it out, but I was implying that toxic masculinity was a greater problem than trans females using women's bathrooms.

I think strict gender lines help to maintain a gender hierarchy. Toxic masculinity (not masculinity, but specifically toxic forms of masculinity) is baked into that.

It's part of why supporting transgender people of all stripes, including non-binary people and those who are gender non-conforming, fairly straightforwardly helps women. (ETA: And, of course, replacing toxic masculinity with healthy masculinity helps men, too. It's a win for everyone.)

 

[icehorse]

However, I believe that the real problem isn't about blurring the line between men and women, but rather the real problem is about creating a rigid and hostile divide between men and women.

They are who they are. It's not about "allowing" it or not. It's about bothering to accept and understand this aspect of human diversity... or exterminate it.

What medical doctor performs a full genetic sequence on a baby before assigning their gender on their birth certificate?

The only real problem -- the cause of all the hatred and debate, is that some of us don't think other people should be who they are!

To all of the posters above, I believe you are committing a society-wide strawmanning fallacy here. Of course "some" people are the way you are describing. But many of us have different concerns:

First: It is an error to equate trans people with trans activists. I have no issues with trans people, but I have massive issues with trans activists (TA). And it appears that many people on this forum have tacitly and/or explicitly decided to support some aspects of the trans activist agenda that are extremely dangerous.

I think the most dangerous aspect of the TA agenda is that it attempts to compel speech. This is usually the first step towards authoritarianism. This also weakens our most fundamental tool, free speech.

Also extremely concerning is that the TA agenda seeks to undo some of women's hard fought rights. We've been discussing rest rooms endlessly, but it includes destroying the idea of women-only access to any number of situations: locker rooms, sports competitions, safe houses, shelters, lesbian-only gatherings, health care settings and so on. There are enormous safety and PRIVACY issues at stake here. The TA's are attacking a women's right to privacy.

In addition, TAs attempt to distort reality. In the end, reality ALWAYS wins.

Agree and there also needs to be honesty and truthfulness as well.

Mr. Hue and Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn have it right. We must not lie.

We DO have much more important issues to tackle. The TAs are sucking a lot of oxygen out of the room, meanwhile the world is on fire (metaphoric dissonance recognized ).

So how about we let trans people live their lives, but we squash the destructive TA agenda and get on with the important issues we're all facing.

 

[BlueIslandGirl]

When men commit most violent crimes and most sexual assaults, blurring the line between men and women is a HUGE problem.

Good men stay out so bad men stand out. Men confused about their bodies are still men. Women need single sex spaces when we are vulnerable. To claim otherwise is simply a luxury belief -- you have the luxury of being rich enough to avoid situations where men prey on vulnerable women and children. Good for you. But do NOT erode safeguarding for those of us who do not have that luxury.