Transgender issues: Why blurring the line between men and women is not the problem

[Shaul]

Does this also include women who have given birth to sons? Microchimerism among women who have given birth is quite common.

Existence of Microchimerism in Pregnant Women Carrying a Boy!

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

snippet:

A recent study proposes that women approximately at all times obtain fetal cells when they get pregnant. These have been noticed in the beginning of seven weeks of pregnancy. Later, the cells can be disappeared, though the cells may stay for a lifetime. Chan et al. reported that Y chromosomes were present in the brains of 63 percent of 59 deceased older women. Several researches evaluated the cells left behind by sons regarding fetal microchimerism, due to ease for its discrimination from the cells of their mothers (5)​

The title of the article you posted was "Existence of Microchimerism in Pregnant Women Carrying a Boy!" What part of "women" isn't clear to you? Any Y chromosome cells aren't native to the woman.

 

[Shaul]

What medical doctor performs a full genetic sequence on a baby before assigning their gender on their birth certificate?

A doctor doesn't assign gender. Gender is assigned and determined by chromosomes. A doctor identifies (or misidentifies) a baby's gender for purposes of the birth certificate. But a birth certificate does not and cannot negate the facts of the baby's chromosomes.

Very few. They tend to go by anatomy, not chromosomes. In fact, that's how it's been for a few centuries now in the West, and that's why we have the term "transsexual" for someone who undergoes the medical procedure of sexual reassignment surgery in order to change their anatomical sex.

And anatomy is usually a reliable means for doing so. So much so that prior to genetics it was the most reliable means for determining gender. But now that we have sufficient knowledge of genetics we can use it to resolve the infrequent cases where using anatomy is misleading or ambiguous. As for the definition of transsexual, that definition is not settled science and its definition is debatable.

Medically transitioned transgender women would be considered women if you took them in a time machine and dropped them off even 200 years ago.
That was also before we were even aware that DNA exists, because "womanhood" has never been defined by our chromosomes. Chromosomal sex is determined by our chromosomes, but that is not the same thing.

Hypothese non fingo. Using fantastical, impossible scenarios proves nothing and is an exercise in futility.

You are redefining what a woman is to intentionally exclude transgender women. Why?

I haven't redefined what a woman is. Quite the opposite. I am supporting the actual definition of a woman. That doesn't "exclude" anyone.

 

[BlueIslandGirl]

A doctor doesn't assign gender. Gender is assigned and determined by chromosomes. A doctor identifies (or misidentifies) a baby's gender for purposes of the birth certificate. But a birth certificate does not and cannot negate the facts of the baby's chromosomes.

You mean sex, not gender.

And anatomy is usually a reliable means for doing so. So much so that prior to genetics it was the most reliable means for determining gender.

Again, you mean sex, not gender.

Here's a good video explaining the sex binary:

And one explaining DSDs:

Gender is society's expectations about how people behave and look based on their sex. Doctors identify a person's sex at birth or often before birth with an ultrasound.

 

[crossfire]

The title of the article you posted was "Existence of Microchimerism in Pregnant Women Carrying a Boy!" What part of "women" isn't clear to you? Any Y chromosome cells aren't native to the woman.

Let me go over the conversation:

I've heard many erroneous claims made during my life. That doesn't change facts. All persons with a Y chromosome are males.

Prove it.

I don't need to. You are the one making an extraordinary claim. The onus is upon you to prove your novel claim.

I'm pretty sure I have microchimeric cells in my body with a Y chromosome that have been integrated into my body and function as part of my body as a result of having given birth to a son. I would fail any test looking for pure X, no Y chromosomes, as I would likely test positive for Y chromosomes. This refutes your claim that all persons with a Y chromosome are male. You are going to have to back down from that claim.

You have decided to back down from your claim by saying that these cells can be identified as being non-native because of their Y chromosome. Identifying non-native cells by their Y chromosomes becomes super problematic in the rare case of XY women who give birth (yes, it has happened,) as the the native cells contain Y chromosomes and the chimeric cells may or may not contain Y chromosomes.

To conclude: testing a person for Y chromosomes is not an airtight way to separate men from women. Not all persons who test positive for Y chromosomes are men.

 

[Shaul]

Let me go over the conversation:

I'm pretty sure I have microchimeric cells in my body with a Y chromosome that have been integrated into my body and function as part of my body as a result of having given birth to a son. I would fail any test looking for pure X, no Y chromosomes, as I would likely test positive for Y chromosomes. This refutes your claim that all persons with a Y chromosome are male. You are going to have to back down from that claim.

You have decided to back down from your claim by saying that these cells can be identified as being non-native because of their Y chromosome. Identifying non-native cells by their Y chromosomes becomes super problematic in the rare case of XY women who give birth (yes, it has happened,) as the the native cells contain Y chromosomes and the chimeric cells may or may not contain Y chromosomes.

To conclude: testing a person for Y chromosomes is not an airtight way to separate men from women. Not all persons who test positive for Y chromosomes are men.

No, you would almost certainly "pass" a properly done test. Because the testing can be done that precludes any microchimeric cells in a person's body. Apparently you think that isn't the case. Which is an error on your part. It is clear you don't really understand this science. Furthermore, I never said that testing for chromosomes was "airtight". All testing of physical things always has some margin of error. But as a practical matter it is not important in using chromosomal testing for determining a person's gender. And it is abundantly clear that chromosomal testing is by far the most accurate means of testing.

 

[icehorse]

A doctor doesn't assign gender. Gender is assigned and determined by chromosomes. A doctor identifies (or misidentifies) a baby's gender for purposes of the birth certificate. But a birth certificate does not and cannot negate the facts of the baby's chromosomes.

I think another good way to think of this is that a person's sex is ESTABLISHED at conception. And the sex of a person, from conception on, is responsible for thousands of biological distinctions, distinctions that are true for every cell in the body.

 

[Shaul]

You mean sex, not gender.

Again, you mean sex, not gender.

Here's a good video explaining the sex binary:

And one explaining DSDs:

Gender is society's expectations about how people behave and look based on their sex. Doctors identify a person's sex at birth or often before birth with an ultrasound.

No I meant gender and I was correct to do so. Gender refers to classifications of phenotypes related to reproduction. Sex is the term for all matters pertaining to sexuality in addition to discriminating of phenotypes. A doctor may be able to determine which phenotype a baby is by examination, male or female. That is gender. A doctor cannot examine a baby and determine whether that baby will develop into a chaste or promiscuous person. That is sex. In many languages words are assigned to be male or female. We call those genders. Those words can have gender but they don't have sex.

 

[Shaul]

I think another good way to think of this is that a person's sex is ESTABLISHED at conception. And the sex of a person, from conception on, is responsible for thousands of biological distinctions, distinctions that are true for every cell in the body.

A person's sex is not determined at conception. That person's gender is determined then. I wrote about gender. You switched to discussing sex.

 

[BlueIslandGirl]

No I meant gender and I was correct to do so. Gender refers to classifications of phenotypes related to reproduction. Sex is the term for all matters pertaining to sexuality in addition to discriminating of phenotypes. A doctor may be able to determine which phenotype a baby is by examination, male or female. That is gender. A doctor cannot examine a baby and determine whether that baby will develop into a chaste or promiscuous person. That is sex. In many languages words are assigned to be male or female. We call those genders. Those words can have gender but they don't have sex.

You have a very strange definition of the word "sex"!!

 

[icehorse]

A person's sex is not determined at conception. That person's gender is determined then. I wrote about gender. You switched to discussing sex.

wait, what? Can you share your definition of "gender"?

 

[Shaul]

You have a very strange definition of the word "sex"!!

My definitions are in harmony with those of recognized dictionaries and authoritative sources. I will comport with them instead of your peculiar sensibilities.

 

[BlueIslandGirl]

My definitions are in harmony with those of recognized dictionaries and authoritative sources. I will comport with them instead of your peculiar sensibilities.

Until 5 minutes ago, everyone understood "sex" to mean male or female sex (body plans built around making small gametes or large gametes) and "gender" to mean societal expectations based on one's sex. And biologists and all people who understand the reality of human mammals still use "sex" to mean male or female sex. It's your definitions that are very odd, not mine.

 

[metis]

Oh gee, another thread on trans.

Why are some so threatened by such differences?

 

[BlueIslandGirl]

Oh gee, another thread on trans.

Why are some so threatened by such differences?

Because pretending that human mammals can change sex has all kinds of impacts, especially on women and children. And because pretending that human mammals can change sex is a lie. It would be fine if people could believe the pretense like people believe in religion; the problem arises when people who believe that lie try to force the rest of us to believe in the same lie by legislating around the lie.

 

[icehorse]

Oh gee, another thread on trans.

Why are some so threatened by such differences?

I will take this as a sincere question. My answer is in post #39.

 

[metis]

Because pretending that human mammals can change sex has all kinds of impacts, especially on women and children. And because pretending that human mammals can change sex is a lie. It would be fine if people could believe the pretense like people believe in religion; the problem arises when people who believe that lie try to force the rest of us to believe in the same lie by legislating around the lie.

That's not what is the cause according to the research as it's the hormonal balance, thus not the "equipment", that drives primate sexuality. At puberty, our bodies contain various balances of estrogen and testosterone, and sometimes the hormonal dominance and the "equipment" don't match.

 

[metis]

I will take this as a sincere question. My answer is in post #39.

And you know my response and your use of stereotyping.

Ever think about minding your own business?

 

[BlueIslandGirl]

That's not what is the cause according to the research as it's the hormonal balance, thus not the "equipment", that drives primate sexuality. At puberty, our bodies contain various balances of estrogen and testosterone, and sometimes the hormonal dominance and the "equipment" don't match.

It doesn't matter what your hormones "feel" like. If you are male with a male body (a body plan built around small gametes) you can certainly have a hormonal disorder or disease but that doesn't make you not a man. Likewise for women. Just like if a man takes estrogen that doesn't make him a woman; likewise, if a woman takes testosterone, that doesn't make her a man.
You are the body you are born with. And human mammals have only two sexes. Doesn't matter what drugs you take, nothing will change your sex.

 

[metis]

It doesn't matter what your hormones "feel" like. If you are male with a male body (a body plan built around small gametes) you can certainly have a hormonal disorder or disease but that doesn't make you not a man. Likewise for women. Just like if a man takes estrogen that doesn't make him a woman; likewise, if a woman takes testosterone, that doesn't make her a man.
You are the body you are born with. And human mammals have only two sexes. Doesn't matter what drugs you take, nothing will change your sex.

If you actually studied primatology and biology in general, you would know that sexual desire is mostly determined by the hormone balance. Thus, I'm not referring to what a person may be called.

Scientific American about a decade or so ago reported the research that about 80% of gays have that drive because the more dominate hormone is the opposite of the genitals. As far as the other 20%, it was not always possible what determined it, but there's not much doubt that at least some likely may have been environmental, such as with abuse.

 

[BlueIslandGirl]

If you actually studied primatology and biology in general, you would know that sexual desire is mostly determined by the hormone balance. Thus, I'm not referring to what a person may be called.

This has nothing to do with sexual desire.

We are talking about what sex someone is, not what sexual attractions they have.
Men who are attracted to men are homosexuals, often called "gay".
Men who are attracted to women are heterosexuals.
Women who are attracted to women are homosexuals, often called "lesbians".
Women who are attracted to men are heterosexuals.
It really doesn't matter why people are gay or straight. The point is humans are either male or female. How you feel about that is irrelevant, other than if you are upset by that, it might be good to spend some time coming to terms with the fact that you can't change it and accepting your body.

There is no third sex. Humans can't change sex. Period.