Transgender issues: Why blurring the line between men and women is not the problem

[icehorse]

Ok, I just thought I'd clarify.

Much of the trans activism I've come across focuses on the rights of trans individuals to be treated with prejudice and discrimination in education, health, employment etc. I'm right in thinking that you have no problem with this?

I think there's a typo? I think you meant to say "treated without..." ?

If so, of course I agree with that!

 

[Firenze]

I think a good portion of transphobia is caused by cisgender men not wanting to be gay. I think that's also why there is such a fixation on binary transgender women rather than transgender men. I think internalized homophobia and biphobia has more to do with transphobia than people might think.

I do think there is also some scare-mongering among conservative women about transgender women being sexually deviant men in disguise, which is rather ignorant, and there is a very small portion of misandrists and female chauvinists with loud voices that we know as "TERFs."

And I think there is quite a bit of hostility from gay and bisexual people because they are afraid of being brought down with transgender people, not unlike how Irish people sought acceptance into white spaces in the US by distancing themselves from black people.

There is some ignorance about the fact that gender exists and that some people really are transgender, as well as prejudicial stereotypes and myths about transgender people such as the idea that transgender women are actually just sexually deviant men with autogynephilia, but I think this misinformation is only spreading because people are already hateful for one of the above reasons.

Non-hateful people have been convinced to agree with transphobic narratives because they genuinely do not know any better or, just as often, are trying to conform to the social groups they are in which have stronger opinions on the topic than they do. Once you get them on board with hate, it's as simple as reinforcing simplistic us vs them narratives. Any question of transgender rights, even something as simple as letting them use the restroom, instead becomes a partisan issue about "protecting" women from "those evil men in dresses."

At the core, though, the problem is that people with significant voices do not actually want inclusivity. They are genuinely hateful and tribalistic. The trick is to reveal that to everyone they've bewitched under their spell of mindless paranoia and outrage.

It would help if people understood that sexuality exists on a spectrum from fully heterosexual to fully homosexual. What the science shows is that very few people reside on one extreme or the other. It's why we see men in prison, who are 'predominately' heterosexual, readily transition to homosexual activity when denied access to women. Of course, our culture makes the excuse that this activity is not about sex, only about power - and this from the people who acknowledge that 'men will screw anything'.....

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

Do you also see trans activist doing this? Or are the only people you see doing this men.

My view is that most trans activists are actually fighting for what most transgender people want - which I see as possibly being in opposition to @icehorse 's view that he can support transgender people while being against broad trans activist agendas.

However, I also think that maybe 8-10% of trans activists, the at times really really vocal ones which often make the world news, are destructive to trans rights and trans people.

 

[Kfox]

Ok, I just thought I'd clarify.

Much of the trans activism I've come across focuses on the rights of trans individuals to be treated with prejudice and discrimination in education, health, employment etc. I'm right in thinking that you have no problem with this?

If that were the only thing they focused on, I doubt the trans issue would be the hot button issue it is today.

 

[Firenze]

Though everybody is guilty of this, I see trans activists doing this more than just about anyone else. They do this by calling anybody who does not agree with their view; bigots, transphobic, and a host of other words and attacks in an attempt to shut down conversations. And many of these activists include non-binary, gender fluid, and others; not just men.

I see this happening all the time; especially in debates.

Do you also see trans activist doing this? Or are the only people you see doing this men.

But they are not trying to shut down conversation. Having to fight every day against people seeking to demonize trans people in a way that puts them in physical danger is not a 'conversation'. They are literally in a fight for their existence. Perhaps walk a mile in their shoes....

 

[Firenze]

A male who due to a highly unusual condition did not develop testes. "She" is a male, by definition. He happens to not have testes. It is rare but it happens. Just as there are rare cases of genetic females that develop typical male secondary sexual characteristics.

That's a highly myopic and frankly, intellectually lazy point of view. Sexuality is not as simple as you appear to wish it was.

 

[icehorse]

My view is that most trans activists are actually fighting for what most transgender people want - which I see as possibly being in opposition to @icehorse 's view that he can support transgender people while being against broad trans activist agendas.

However, I also think that maybe 8-10% of trans activists, the at times really really vocal ones which often make the world news, are destructive to trans rights and trans people.

Hey! We might actually have some points of agreement!

I support efforts to remove prejudice and discrimination against trans people, I assume you agree?

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

Hey! We might actually have some points of agreement!

I support efforts to remove prejudice and discrimination against trans people, I assume you agree?

I support that. I just wonder what the proposals are for going about that.

 

[Kfox]

My view is that most trans activists are actually fighting for what most transgender people want -

No; that’s not what I asked. Again; do you see trans activists voicing their opinions in a way that does more than just voice their opinion? By seeking to silence people who disagree with them with personal attacks of being called bigoted, transphobic, etc? Or do you only see this with men.

 

[Yerda]

I think there's a typo? I think you meant to say "treated without..." ?

If so, of course I agree with that!

It was a typo. Thanks.

Maybe not using terms like "TA agenda" would help you come across as a good faith actor in this discussion? There is a lot of explicitly anti-trans sentiment out there and it often involves language similar to the way you've expressed yourself over the trans-warfare threads RF's been having. Creepy far right groups who outright hate trans people and are making political hay out of the bigotry out there often couch their "concerns" in terms of protecting women and children and that trans activists are a danger to them. Toilets, prisons, and clinics are typical locations of the scary fear.

Given this, what would you say is the strongest evidence that trans activists are hurting women with their demands/expectations?

 

[Firenze]

Because pretending that human mammals can change sex has all kinds of impacts, especially on women and children. And because pretending that human mammals can change sex is a lie. It would be fine if people could believe the pretense like people believe in religion; the problem arises when people who believe that lie try to force the rest of us to believe in the same lie by legislating around the lie.

You just described the Christian right and its attempt to legislate against our history of institutionalized racism and the reality that there actually are gay people. Interesting.

 

[Yerda]

If that were the only thing they focused on, I doubt the trans issue would be the hot button issue it is today.

I didn't say that was the only thing they focused on but if it was I'm sure it would still be the hot button issue it is. Gay activists with their "gay agenda" weren't out calling for the right to assault children or destroy traditional marriage and yet conservative groups were very successful at painting this picture. They were accused of grooming, being sexual predators, attempting to indoctrinate the youth with gay propaganda. Does this sound familiar at all?

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

No; that’s not what I asked. Again; do you see trans activists voicing their opinions in a way that does more than just voice their opinion?

Yes.

By seeking to silence people who disagree with them with personal attacks of being called bigoted, transphobic, etc?

Yes.

Or do you only see this with men.

No.

 

[icehorse]

Maybe not using terms like "TA agenda" would help you come across as a good faith actor in this discussion?

I am under the impression that "trans activist" is the accepted term. If it's not, I'm happy to use the accepted term if anyone knows it.

There is a lot of explicitly anti-trans sentiment out there and it often involves language similar to the way you've expressed yourself over the trans-warfare threads RF's been having.

Agreed. I have tried to be specific about my concerns. Does my post #39 clear my concerns up?

Creepy far right groups who outright hate trans people and are making political hay out of the bigotry out there often couch their "concerns" in terms of protecting women and children and that trans activists are a danger to them. Toilets, prisons, and clinics are typical locations of the scary fear.

Also agreed. But I think we liberals have to police our own camp. When a TA promotes an outlandish proposal, OF COURSE our opponents will pounce on it and use it.

As for toilets, prisons, clinics and so on being "scary fear", I think I need to reiterate my stance. I am NOT saying that trans people are statistically any more dangerous than the general population. However, the dangerous side effect of letting trans women into women's-only safe spaces, is that it makes it far easier for evil men to enter these spaces. This is a justifiable fear.

Given this, what would you say is the strongest evidence that trans activists are hurting women with their demands/expectations?

If you use your search engine you can find many occurrences of:

- trans women making a mockery of women's sports
- women being afraid to use safe spaces they've previously enjoyed
- denying women privacy from people with penises
- women who speak out being "canceled" or losing their jobs

..

 

[BlueIslandGirl]

You just described the Christian right and its attempt to legislate against our history of institutionalized racism and the reality that there actually are gay people. Interesting.

I honestly have no idea what you're talking about.

I was saying that human mammals, like all other mammals on Earth, cannot change sex, and the attempt of some groups to force us to believe that they can -- i.e. to believe a lie -- is an extremely anti-liberal thing to do. These groups use a variety of tactics to try to force us to believe the lie, including (but not limited to) passing laws that require it. Which is, in my view, equivalent to the state enforcing a religious belief on people, which is, essentially, a theocracy. Perhaps on "Religious Forums" there are some people here who want a theocracy rather than a liberal democracy in the U.S. I'm not one of them.

 

[Kfox]

But they are not trying to shut down conversation.

Below is an example of an activists attempting to shut down conversation by calling his line of questioning transphobic, and claiming such questions leads to violence.

Having to fight every day against people seeking to demonize trans people in a way that puts them in physical danger is not a 'conversation'.

The Senator was not demonizing anyone, he was only asking questions the activist didn’t like, or was unable to answer

They are literally in a fight for their existence.

You either exist, or you don’t. Existence is not something you have to fight for.

Perhaps walk a mile in their shoes....

Walking in someone else’s shoes is not necessary to have an opinion concerning what they say

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I don't see personal autonomy as something that is "allowed" I guess. I mean, the denial of basic personal autonomy of one human by other humans is... well... erh, I'm just going to leave that there, actually.

You have a job, yes?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Prove it.

Good thing science has showed even sex chromosomes can be hella messy and sloppy.
It was Sagan, I believe, who said the universe is under no obligation to make sense to us. It's no different with our own anatomy and biology. And while it may be freshman biology where XX=female XY=male, those variations and women born with a Y chromose is AP biology.

 

[Kfox]

Girl with Y chromosome sheds light on maleness​

What makes this person a girl?

 

[fantome profane]

Below is an example of an activists attempting to shut down conversation

What you mean is she said something you did not agree with. She did not try to silence anyone. Pointing out that Josh Hawley is an idiot and a bigot is not interfering with his right to free speech.