Transgenders

[-Peacemaker-]

You replied to #134, which reminded us all of why #128 does not sustain itself, so you must have read it.

I did read it. There aren't any real conclusions that can be drawn from the observation that certain conditions that were once perceived as "mental illnesses" are now consider "normal" in the "scientific" community besides the conclusion that "science" has had a hard time making its mind up. We also cannot conclude that the newest designation of this behavior is a correction of a previous misunderstanding simply because it came latest.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

I just want to further clarify myself and my perceived jumping around from topic to topic in some people's eyes. I gather that most of the people I've been arguing with here see fornication, transgenderism, homosexuality, bisexuality, pedophilia, beastiality, etc. as distinct and separate issues. I see them as being different forms of the same thing and coming from the same place. What some people perceive as me jumping around from topic to topic is me treating all these issues as one in the same.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I've probably said some things in anger though. I know I can be obnoxious sometimes on here. I know I need to say things in a nicer way. I enjoy talking with everyone here even if I don't always show it. Now back to the converstion. The whole "we just want to live our lives" is disingenuous IMO. This is about certain JUSTIFYING themselves in the eyes of others. That is why it's a battle for people's hearts.

That you would say us wanting to live our lives is disingenuous is very presumptuous. And you know what? I don't need to justify myself to anyone. It's who I am, if you have a problem with it then it is simply your problem, not mine. Personally I would say that stating I not being sincere when I just want to live my life is to bear false witness. It seems you are telling me I have a splinter in my eye when you have a mote in your own.

I just want to further clarify myself and my perceived jumping around from topic to topic in some people's eyes. I gather that most of the people I've been arguing with here see fornication, transgenderism, homosexuality, bisexuality, pedophilia, beastiality, etc. as distinct and separate issues. I see them as being different forms of the same thing and coming from the same place. What some people perceive as me jumping around from topic to topic is me treating all these issues as one in the same.

They are not the same though. You can hold onto your opinions all you want, but the facts are they are different issues.
And you never addressed the women being ripped open in Hosea since you apparently think abortion is the same.

I did read it. There aren't any real conclusions that can be drawn from the observation that certain conditions that were once perceived as "mental illnesses" are now consider "normal" in the "scientific" community besides the conclusion that "science" has had a hard time making its mind up. We also cannot conclude that the newest designation of this behavior is a correction of a previous misunderstanding simply because it came latest.

That might hold true, if many psychological, psychiatric, counseling, therapy, and many other groups from various disciplines had not all said that there is nothing wrong with homosexuality.
The people who push the things you adhere to are known for getting caught with their pants down with another man.

 

[Maya3]

I just want to further clarify myself and my perceived jumping around from topic to topic in some people's eyes. I gather that most of the people I've been arguing with here see fornication, transgenderism, homosexuality, bisexuality, pedophilia, beastiality, etc. as distinct and separate issues. I see them as being different forms of the same thing and coming from the same place. What some people perceive as me jumping around from topic to topic is me treating all these issues as one in the same.

This is extremely insulting!

Two consenting adults who love each other and who are getting married. (Yes in several states in the US and several countries in the world, consenting adults ARE allowed to marry.) and bestiality is NOT the same thing.

And yes like Shadow Wolf said, the people who are vehemently against people who are for example gay are often closeted gays themselves. Often pretending that Science, knowledge and understanding of humanity is somehow wrong so that they can further their arguments.

Still you are happy to drive the newest car, have the best dishwasher, use a computer, and receive the newest medical treatments, but when it comes to your own agenda then you suddenly don't believe in "Science" anymore.

Please respond to this post without diversion.

Maya

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Once again, it's the insistence that anything outside the model of heterosexual monogamous married sex is considered immoral, and there are a few people who will loudly stick to that model as the only right one.

Too many people have come and gone at RF who hold to that model, and who can't even agree with each other when it comes to other sexual purity laws. One believes female orgasm doesn't exist. And another believes that wives are to be beaten when they "disobey their husbands" or don't please them in bed.

It's all bunk. The us vs. them paradigm rarely maintains its position when we all take a reality check. Purity laws based on shame and honor codes, where women are no better than chattel, where sex holds a male ejaculatory bias (it begins and ends with what the penis does), where pair-bonding and intimacy take a back seat to doctrinal commands to pro-create, it all limits sex to the notion that breeding is not just the ideal....but the ONLY reason.

 

[LuisDantas]

I did read it. There aren't any real conclusions that can be drawn from the observation that certain conditions that were once perceived as "mental illnesses" are now consider "normal" in the "scientific" community besides the conclusion that "science" has had a hard time making its mind up.

Rather more like science is made by humans subject to social acceptance and pressure.

 

[painted wolf]

Let's not forget that the Bible doesn't agree with itself on the matter either.

wa:do

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Let's not forget that the Bible doesn't agree with itself on the matter either.

wa:do

Yes, as long as it fits the model that breeding is the only acceptable distinction, then society should go with it.

 

[Penumbra]

I just want to further clarify myself and my perceived jumping around from topic to topic in some people's eyes. I gather that most of the people I've been arguing with here see fornication, transgenderism, homosexuality, bisexuality, pedophilia, beastiality, etc. as distinct and separate issues. I see them as being different forms of the same thing and coming from the same place. What some people perceive as me jumping around from topic to topic is me treating all these issues as one in the same.

It's like trying to fit a square block of facts into a triangular hole of an un-evidenced worldview, and deciding to toss away the facts.

And causing harm in the process.

 

[Penumbra]

Peacemaker, you haven't yet replied to the last post in this exchange of posts:

Jesus never even mentioned homosexuality or transgenderism.

The bro was too busy working on other things to be hatin'.

It's flat out impossible to argue with integrity that he approved of such behavior. He was a student of the OT, he knew exactly what its definition of sexual immorality was and specifically told people to abstain from it. He also didn't even give one hint that somewhere in the new covenant that Christians believe he established a new standard of sexual immoraly was being implemented

So if you and Jesus are fans of the OT, I take it that you're equally against mixed fabrics and eating shellfish, among other things. Plus you're all for making sure there are tassels on clothing, as specified in the OT.

If so, can you please link to a thread or two where you've discussed those things?

Jesus didn't even mention homosexuality or transgenderism, and yet you assume he would dislike those things because they're from the OT. But the cherry-picking is pretty evident here, because the vast majority of Christians that selectively pursue LGBT issues to criticize and cause harm towards generally do not use the same type of thinking to talk about any other aspects of the OT.

It's a fixation on sexuality. It seems nothing more than using religion to selectively 'justify' other forms of intolerance. If that were not so, then the OT would be more equally applied to all things that authors of the OT wrote rather than having an awkward fixation on sexuality.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

That you would say us wanting to live our lives is disingenuous is very presumptuous. And you know what? I don't need to justify myself to anyone. It's who I am, if you have a problem with it then it is simply your problem, not mine. Personally I would say that stating I not being sincere when I just want to live my life is to bear false witness. It seems you are telling me I have a splinter in my eye when you have a mote in your own.

It's not my intention to single you out with that statement and I apologize if it came off that way. It's my view on the entire gay movement. Activists often like to say "we're just trying to live our lives." Meanwhile they're trying to change the curriculum in school to say that their lifestyle is perfectly normal. They're trying to convince the public their behavior is perfectly normal and healthy. They're trying to change society's view of marriage and family. If they simply did their business in the privacy of their own home without preaching I could start to agree that they're just "trying to live their lives." You guys are talking to our children when you say this stuff. You're trying to influence their views on morality. Of course there's going to be some pushback. Christians on the other hand are very up front about their mission.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

It's not my intention to single you out with that statement. It's my view on the entire gay movement. Activists like often like to say "we're just trying to live our lives." Meanwhile they're trying to change the curriculum in school to say that their lifestyle is perfectly normal. They're trying to convince the public their behavior is perfectly normal and healthy. They're trying to change society's view of marriage and family. If they simply did their business in the privacy of their own home without preaching I could start to agree that they're just "trying to live their lives." You guys are talking to our children when you say this stuff. You're trying to influence their views on morality. Of course there's going to be some pushback. Christians on the other hand are very up front about their mission.

In other words, everything would be just fine as long as queers know their place.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

Peacemaker, you haven't yet replied to the last post in this exchange of posts:


Jesus didn't even mention homosexuality or transgenderism, and yet you assume he would dislike those things because they're from the OT. But the cherry-picking is pretty evident here, because the vast majority of Christians that selectively pursue LGBT issues to criticize and cause harm towards generally do not use the same type of thinking to talk about any other aspects of the OT.

Read about the "old covenant" verses the "new covenant". Also read about the difference between, moral laws, ceremonial laws, and civil laws. If this is actually a sincere question I'd be happy to post a few links that explain the orthodox Christian pov.

 

[Revoltingest]

It's not my intention to single you out with that statement and I apologize if it came off that way. It's my view on the entire gay movement. Activists often like to say "we're just trying to live our lives." Meanwhile they're trying to change the curriculum in school to say that their lifestyle is perfectly normal. They're trying to convince the public their behavior is perfectly normal and healthy. They're trying to change society's view of marriage and family. If they simply did their business in the privacy of their own home without preaching I could start to agree that they're just "trying to live their lives." You guys are talking to our children when you say this stuff. You're trying to influence their views on morality. Of course there's going to be some pushback. Christians on the other hand are very up front about their mission.

To live one's life naturally involves advocacy that one be able to fully participate in society. Just as with homosexuality, there is nothing inherently
harmful in being homosexual, so there's nothing wrong with being politically active in this way. Similarly, Xians advocate for their own values.
If we accept that one group may do this, then so may the other. But it is not the gay folk who say "You should change to become like us.".
What I see is "Treat us as you would heterosexuals.". This is not oppressive, as is their foes' agenda.

 

[LuisDantas]

It's not my intention to single you out with that statement and I apologize if it came off that way. It's my view on the entire gay movement. Activists often like to say "we're just trying to live our lives." Meanwhile they're trying to change the curriculum in school to say that their lifestyle is perfectly normal. They're trying to convince the public their behavior is perfectly normal and healthy. They're trying to change society's view of marriage and family. If they simply did their business in the privacy of their own home without preaching I could start to agree that they're just "trying to live their lives." You guys are talking to our children when you say this stuff. You're trying to influence their views on morality. Of course there's going to be some pushback. Christians on the other hand are very up front about their mission.

Why shouldn't people try and change views on morality and family? How else could they keep relevant and healthy?

 

[Penumbra]

Read about the "old covenant" verses the "new covenant". Also read about the difference between, moral laws, ceremonial laws, and civil laws. If this is actually a sincere question I'd be happy to post a few links that explain the orthodox Christian pov.

People cherry-pick what things they want to carry over from the OT.

Unless you'd like to show specifically why many Christians make an ENORMOUS deal about LGBT issues despite the fact that Jesus never mentioned them anymore than he mentioned the prohibitions against certain kinds of mixed fabrics.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

In other words, everything would be just fine as long as queers know their place.

At this point I'd just appreciate a little honesty from activists regarding their agenda as opposed to the dishonest "we just want to live our lives and love who we want to love." If people are trying to win people's hearts and minds they should at least have the integrity to admit it.

 

[LuisDantas]

At this point I'd just appreciate a little honesty from activists regarding their agenda as opposed to the dishonest "we just want to live our lives and love who we want to love." If people are trying to win people's hearts and minds they should at least have the integrity to admit it.

Of course the LGBT movement is trying to win people's hearts and minds. That is what acceptance is, after all.

What does strike you as dishonest? What do you think that the "agenda" is if not acceptance?

 

[Penumbra]

It's not my intention to single you out with that statement and I apologize if it came off that way. It's my view on the entire gay movement. Activists often like to say "we're just trying to live our lives." Meanwhile they're trying to change the curriculum in school to say that their lifestyle is perfectly normal. They're trying to convince the public their behavior is perfectly normal and healthy. They're trying to change society's view of marriage and family. If they simply did their business in the privacy of their own home without preaching I could start to agree that they're just "trying to live their lives." You guys are talking to our children when you say this stuff. You're trying to influence their views on morality. Of course there's going to be some pushback. Christians on the other hand are very up front about their mission.

Homosexuals want the same rights as anyone else. To be able to marry their loved one, to not get fired or kicked out of their apartment for their orientation, etc. They'd also prefer not to be called abominations from other people due to writings from 3000 year old people from another continent.

So people with LGBT orientations and their allies are of course going to show the discrimination every time it happens, show the inconsistent arguments from those that support that type of discrimination, and make sure that valid research and modern understandings of sexual orientation and gender identity are understood rather than sweeped away as inconvenient facts. Just like people had to do when they wanted to provide people of different races equal rights or people of different sexes equal rights.

 

[Revoltingest]

At this point I'd just appreciate a little honesty from activists regarding their agenda as opposed to the dishonest "we just want to live our lives and love who we want to love." If people are trying to win people's hearts and minds they should at least have the integrity to admit it.

Careful with the dishonesty charge there, bub.
That's inappropriately harsh for a mere difference of opinion.