Transgenders

[LuisDantas]

Is it perhaps that you feel that demanding changes to laws and moral standards is more than just acceptance?

 

[-Peacemaker-]

Homosexuals want the same rights as anyone else. To be able to marry their loved one, to not get fired or kicked out of their apartment for their orientation, etc. They'd also prefer not to be called abominations from other people due to writings from 3000 year old people from another continent.

So people with LGBT orientations and their allies are of course going to show the discrimination every time it happens, show the inconsistent arguments from those that support that type of discrimination, and make sure that valid research and modern understandings of sexual orientation and gender identity are understood rather than sweeped away as inconvenient facts. Just like people had to do when they wanted to provide people of different races equal rights or people of different sexes equal rights.

Again, part of their agenda is convincing people that their behavior is not only not sinful but perfectly normal and healthy.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

At this point I'd just appreciate a little honesty from activists regarding their agenda as opposed to the dishonest "we just want to live our lives and love who we want to love." If people are trying to win people's hearts and minds they should at least have the integrity to admit it.

If you're thinking that activists are only being honest if we were to say to you that we're trying to turn your children into homosexuals, I'd say that's an exercise in futility.

What do activists want? Stop discrimination. Stop the bullying. Stop telling children they're sick, twisted, and evil if they admit to having homosexual attractions or if they feel they've been born with the wrong body. Stop the hatred, the lies, and the blatant misrepresentation about homosexuals and transfolk. Stop forcing everybody into living their lives based on shame and honor codes.

Start with love.

 

[Penumbra]

Again, part of their agenda is convincing people that their behavior is not only not sinful but perfectly normal and healthy.

Because that's exactly what the research indicates. Plus, it's generally clear to those that have actually truly known people of LGBT orientations.

Without involvement from religion, 'sinful' isn't even a relevant concept and the arguments against the normalcy and health of it are lacking.

 

[Maya3]

To live one's life naturally involves advocacy that one be able to fully participate in society. Just as with homosexuality, there is nothing inherently
harmful in being homosexual, so there's nothing wrong with being politically active in this way. Similarly, Xians advocate for their own values.
If we accept that one group may do this, then so may the other. But it is not the gay folk who say "You should change to become like us.".
What I see is "Treat us as you would heterosexuals.". This is not oppressive, as is their foes' agenda.

Well said!

Treat others as you yourself want to be treated. Isn´t that one of the Christian values, The Golden Rule if I´m not mistaken?
I would be against Gay marriage too, if gay people came around and told me that I couldn´t be with my husband but had to marry a woman or stay celibate.
But gays want to marry each other. It has no bearing on my life, other than making a more tolerant society which I love. But my own marriage is not changing if someone else marries.

It's not my intention to single you out with that statement and I apologize if it came off that way. It's my view on the entire gay movement. Activists often like to say "we're just trying to live our lives." Meanwhile they're trying to change the curriculum in school to say that their lifestyle is perfectly normal. They're trying to convince the public their behavior is perfectly normal and healthy. They're trying to change society's view of marriage and family. If they simply did their business in the privacy of their own home without preaching I could start to agree that they're just "trying to live their lives." You guys are talking to our children when you say this stuff. You're trying to influence their views on morality. Of course there's going to be some pushback. Christians on the other hand are very up front about their mission.

Before I answer the above, I would like to remind you again Peacemaker that you are still ignoring my posts and other peoples posts.

There is no lifestyle, calling gay peoples lives lifestyles is insulting.
What if your life was called a lifestyle?

Gays would in fact live their lives in their privacy of their own homes if they had the right to do so. But they can't, because they are denied rights that other people have. In some countries they are even killed for living their own life in the privacy of their homes.
Some live together for 60 years, then when one of the spouses dies they have no ability to keep the house. Either because they have to pay an enormous death tax, or because they couldn't both be on the lease.
Or after fighting in a war and your marriage is hurting due to post traumatic stress your spouse is not allowed to go to marriage counseling with you even though you are married.
Or when your partner is dying in the hospital you are not allowed inside because you are not considered family.

And you wonder why people don't just shut up and hide at home?

Learn the facts. Some people are gay, most are straight, some have dark skin, some have light, some have red hair, some have dark hair. Some are Christian, some are not. There is nothing more to it than that.
You bet we are teaching children tolerance. That way when they grow up they will not be on an internet board telling other people that they are not worthy of the same rights as them.

Maya

 

[-Peacemaker-]

Learn the facts. Some people are gay, most are straight, some have dark skin, some have light, some have red hair, some have dark hair. Some are Christian, some are not. There is nothing more to it than that.
You bet we are teaching children tolerance. That way when they grow up they will not be on an internet board telling other people that they are not worthy of the same rights as them.

Maya

You did bring up something relevant here. To my knowledge, science has not found any "gay gene" and opinions as to the causes of this condition vary greatly. If I'm not mistaken, there is also wide speculation as to whether or not events in early childhood can cause this. FWIW, the stories of people who saw their inclinations/"orientation" change are not hard to find, granted alot of them involve talking about the percieved role of the grace and power of Jesus in that regard.

 

[Revoltingest]

You did bring up something relevant here. To my knowledge, science has not found any "gay gene" and opinions as to the causes of this condition vary greatly. If I'm not mistaken, there is also wide speculation as to whether or not events in early childhood can cause this. FWIW, the stories of people who saw their inclinations/"orientation" change are not hard to find, granted alot of them involve talking about the percieved role of the grace and power of Jesus in that regard.

Does it matter whether there is a gene, a complex of them, or an environmental factor which dictates being gay?
If one's state is permanent, then whatever the cause it would be fruitless to oppose it.

 

[LuisDantas]

You did bring up something relevant here. To my knowledge, science has not found any "gay gene" and opinions as to the causes of this condition vary greatly.

There seems to be no 'gay gene' as such. There are genetic and hormonal factors that seem to lead to homosexuality, though. Transgenderism is a bit harder to explain, and seems to be a bit more environmental.

None of which matters for moral considerations, mind you. We could have no idea whatsoever of the causes of either transgenderism (ETA: or homosexuality), it would still lend no one the right to repress or condemn either.

If I'm not mistaken, there is also wide speculation as to whether or not events in early childhood can cause this. FWIW, the stories of people who saw their inclinations/"orientation" change are not hard to find, granted alot of them involve talking about the percieved role of the grace and power of Jesus in that regard.

The stories about how disastrous those attempts end up, and the tragedy they cause, are far easier to find and more convincing, though.

 

[Maya3]

You did bring up something relevant here. To my knowledge, science has not found any "gay gene" and opinions as to the causes of this condition vary greatly. If I'm not mistaken, there is also wide speculation as to whether or not events in early childhood can cause this. FWIW, the stories of people who saw their inclinations/"orientation" change are not hard to find, granted alot of them involve talking about the percieved role of the grace and power of Jesus in that regard.

We have separation of church and state. That means that you can get married in your church instead of at my Mandir for example.
It means that people have rights regardless of their religion.

Whether you think something is sinful or not have nothing to do with this debate.
People get married all the time even if they don't agree with your views on sin.

Maya

 

[-Peacemaker-]

Careful with the dishonesty charge there, bub.
That's inappropriately harsh for a mere difference of opinion.

This has nothing to do with disgreeing with anyone's position. This is about using language that is misleading. It paints a picture of people who are simply minding their own business fighting so that they can do what they want. Wrong! They are talking to our kids and trying to influence their views on morality. Again, I'd just appreciate a little honesty if that's the agenda.

 

[LuisDantas]

This is about using language that is misleading. It paints a picture of people who are simply minding their own business fighting so that they can do what they want.

There are situations where the two are not one and the same, but I don't think this is one of them.

It is not their fault that our society still has considerable fear and unease of their very existence; homosexuals and transgenders are entitled to their civil rights, including acceptance and marriage, as much as anyone else.

Unless what you mean is that in some way those demands invade other people's own rights?

Wrong! They are talking to our kids and trying to influence their views on morality.

Pretty much. As well they - and us all, really - should.

Again, I'd just appreciate a little honesty if that's the agenda.

If you must call exercising civil, politician and moral rights an "agenda" then of course it is. I don't see why you think it is either wrong or hidden, though.

 

[Penumbra]

Transgenderism is a bit harder to explain, and seems to be a bit more environmental.

From what I've read back in school, the current professional consensus is that hormonal influences in the womb appear to be the primary cause. The genes determine sex, and then hormones at certain times assist the physical development and the gender identity. Usually those things work in unison, but occasionally there is an error.

And then, research on brains of transgendered people has shown some evidence that parts of the brains, such as part of the stria terminalis, end up being more like the other sex for transgendered people. So with these findings, a female-to-male transgender person would generally have a stria terminalis that approximates what a 'normal' male's would be, and the same is true for the reverse.

I don't think anyone is sure if this is the entire cause, or if environmental effects on the mother can influence this. Permanently transgendered individuals generally felt that way since childhood, but the reverse is not necessarily true- not all children that have gender identity questions end up being permanently transgendered.

A source (discusses brain differences, hormones)
The wikipedia source (lists several possibilities)

I remember reading an article years ago that proposed some observational evidence that there may also be an impact on the androgen or estrogen receptors, based on findings of what happens mentally when estrogen or testosterone is given to transgendered individuals compared to non-transgendered individuals. It was proposed that, for example, a male-to-female transgender person, in the initial male body, would have additional/engaged estrogen receptors that are not being given enough estrogen, which among other things can cause depression. When estrogen is given, in addition to the physical effects that the transgender person desires, there is often an initial feeling of well-being that replaces years of depression before there are even noticeable physical changes. Plus the reverse for testosterone.

Not necessarily directed at you, just mentioned for the sake of the thread in general.

 

[Kerr]

Again, part of their agenda is convincing people that their behavior is not only not sinful but perfectly normal and healthy.

That is a very justified agenda.

 

[LuisDantas]

Again, part of their agenda is convincing people that their behavior is not only not sinful but perfectly normal and healthy.

As others pointed out, that is quite reasonable and legitimate.

It is also pretty much the same as "not submitting pointlessly to external expectations", come to think of it. How much of a right to expect others to agree with your expectations of what is right or wrong do you have?

 

[Kerr]

This has nothing to do with disgreeing with anyone's position. This is about using language that is misleading. It paints a picture of people who are simply minding their own business fighting so that they can do what they want. Wrong! They are talking to our kids and trying to influence their views on morality. Again, I'd just appreciate a little honesty if that's the agenda.

Define "our kids" please. Because depending on the family, someone might say the same about you and your views.

A question. If the world considers homosexuality something wrong and sinful, and if they arent given the same opportunities as hetrosexuals, how can they mind their own business?

 

[tumbleweed41]

I just want to further clarify myself and my perceived jumping around from topic to topic in some people's eyes. I gather that most of the people I've been arguing with here see fornication, transgenderism, homosexuality, bisexuality, pedophilia, beastiality, etc. as distinct and separate issues. I see them as being different forms of the same thing and coming from the same place. What some people perceive as me jumping around from topic to topic is me treating all these issues as one in the same.

So, in your mind, anything that does not conform to one man/one woman, as they are born, fits into one neat little box labeled "other".

In doing so, you can ignore the various psychological and physiological aspects of anything you do not consider "normal", put on your blinders, and live your life in self-righteous bliss.

I would pity you if attitudes like yours did not endanger the civil rights and lives of many of my friends and loved ones.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

It's not my intention to single you out with that statement and I apologize if it came off that way. It's my view on the entire gay movement. Activists often like to say "we're just trying to live our lives." Meanwhile they're trying to change the curriculum in school to say that their lifestyle is perfectly normal. They're trying to convince the public their behavior is perfectly normal and healthy. They're trying to change society's view of marriage and family. If they simply did their business in the privacy of their own home without preaching I could start to agree that they're just "trying to live their lives." You guys are talking to our children when you say this stuff. You're trying to influence their views on morality. Of course there's going to be some pushback. Christians on the other hand are very up front about their mission.

The reason we try to educate the general public is because of people like you, and your sources, who spew lies about us. We don't want to convert your kids, we don't even care if they are hetero or homosexual or whatever. We simply educate so people will realize that we too are people and have just as much of a right as anyone else to live out our lives. And last I knew, it was the homophobic crowd who was trying to change schools, with "don't say gay" laws, "license-to-bully" laws, and any other way they can make those of the GLBT community feel discriminated against, singled out, harassed, and anything they can do to make us feel like less than human. Your side straight up admits it wants it's children to have the right to harass other children in school just because they are gay.

Transgenderism is a bit harder to explain, and seems to be a bit more environmental.

From what I've read back in school, the current professional consensus is that hormonal influences in the womb appear to be the primary cause. The genes determine sex, and then hormones at certain times assist the physical development and the gender identity. Usually those things work in unison, but occasionally there is an error.

^That.
As for the environment, I'm not going to deny there are some plausible cases, but it seems to be more genetic. As for me, I can't really recall anything unusual or unordinary about my childhood. I had a mother and father, an older brother and sister, but even at a very young age I knew there were differences between the ways that boys and girls act, and being the bullheaded and stubborn child that I was (and still am) I would not do anything that I even remotely perceived to be girly. I even remember making a couple of scenes out of it.
And then as I got older, I hated my mom, and she wasn't exactly nice to me. One time I even remember clinching my fists and starting to draw them as she was screaming at me, and stopping only because I knew if I did I would get it really bad from my dad.
I can say with certainty, that me being trans is probably not influenced by my environment or upbringing, as there was no overbearing female presence, there were rigid gender roles, and a general absence of the things the environment side typically looks for.

I don't think anyone is sure if this is the entire cause, or if environmental effects on the mother can influence this. Permanently transgendered individuals generally felt that way since childhood, but the reverse is not necessarily true- not all children that have gender identity questions end up being permanently transgendered.

I think that is a point worth elaborating on, at least briefly, because it is normal for a younger child to have a phase of questioning their gender identity, but they grow out of it.

At this point I'd just appreciate a little honesty from activists regarding their agenda as opposed to the dishonest "we just want to live our lives and love who we want to love." If people are trying to win people's hearts and minds they should at least have the integrity to admit it.

Don't worry, if there is a Hell I will be there to keep you company, because I'm pretty sure Jesus spoke, multiple times, about such accusations, speaking such ways, and using his name for things he didn't approve of, and he made it very clear what the consequences for doing so are.
You seem to be so worried about the lives of others, and how their existence is offensive to your moral standards, that you have neglected the state of your own soul.
And BTW, educating people and teaching them, and getting them to accept others as humans is in no way a negative way of influencing morality. If anything you should be grateful, as we are doing your job and our part to make the world a better and more safe place. You can't honestly believe Jesus would actually support calling people psychotically disturbed, liars, or doing anything OTHER than standing with us in preaching love and peace. After all Jesus was a long-haired hippy, and not a gun toting cowboy.

 

[Maya3]

After all Jesus was a long-haired hippy, and not a gun toting cowboy.

Maya

 

[-Peacemaker-]

Don't worry, if there is a Hell I will be there to keep you company, because I'm pretty sure Jesus spoke, multiple times, about such accusations, speaking such ways, and using his name for things he didn't approve of, and he made it very clear what the consequences for doing so are.
You seem to be so worried about the lives of others, and how their existence is offensive to your moral standards, that you have neglected the state of your own soul.
And BTW, educating people and teaching them, and getting them to accept others as humans is in no way a negative way of influencing morality. If anything you should be grateful, as we are doing your job and our part to make the world a better and more safe place. You can't honestly believe Jesus would actually support calling people psychotically disturbed, liars, or doing anything OTHER than standing with us in preaching love and peace. After all Jesus was a long-haired hippy, and not a gun toting cowboy.

Actually we believe the version of Jesus that's coming back is going to be strapped big time

Revelation 19:
The Coming of Christ

11And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war.12His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself.13He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.14And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses.15From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty.16And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”

17Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all the birds which fly in midheaven, “Come, assemble for the great supper of God,18so that you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of commanders and the flesh of mighty men and the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them and the flesh of all men, both free men and slaves, and small and great.”

19And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies assembled to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army.

Doom of the Beast and False Prophet

20And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone.21And the rest were killed with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Actually we believe the version of Jesus that's coming back is going to be strapped big time

Actually SOME of you believe in a Ramboed up Jesus. Many people simply believe Revelations to be symbolic in nature, and a number of scholars think it may have been nothing more than a message to the churches the book specifically addresses. Some people think the entire meaning of Revelations is nothing more than having faith in that God will prevail. And then there are those who believe Jesus is not returning, because Matthew, Mark, and Luke all recorded that Jesus said those things, the Day of the Lord, will happen before their generation died.
And as for your morality, you are the one flaunting a book that supports abortion, genocide, slavery, and cannibalism. You also interfere with my view of morality, because while I try to show people how to just get along, you seem content on judging, name calling, and being obstinate. Plenty of people have shown you links, offered you advice and insights, but yet you cling to ways that are belittling towards others. IMO, that is the definition of immoral, especially when you think that educating others is wrong and and that we are hypocritical because we are calling a rose by a different name.