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Transphobia

Isn't the first half of your sentence just another way of saying "propaganda" ?



I'd say propaganda checks all of those boxes and it's used by all sides of the culture wars.

The point is that it would seem that extremists ON ALL SIDES, have concluded that values like "truth" and "trust" are optional for societies to function.

For the sake of discussion, let’s just assume propaganda to some extent causes all of these problems (I’m not even sure propaganda is a meaningful term beyond being a convenient but oversimplified shorthand but it’s not too important for now).

Why do people believe propaganda in the first place?

What are the social and psychological conditions that cause such ideas to take hold?

This isn’t a Godwin, but obviously propaganda played a role in the rise of the Nazis but it’s not going to give you a great understanding to see it as the primary cause.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Try being a little less pompous, you'll get further.
Sorry that offended you. I don't see how.

And thanks for the life advice, but I'm pretty much where I want to be in life for what's left of it.

Or maybe you meant I'll get further trying to sweettalk transphobics into a little more tolerance. I explained why I consider that a fools errand. One never sees them relent unless somebody they love comes out transsexual and they turn to compassion rather than continuing expressing their contempt. Otherwise, the best approach is ridicule and shaming. We can offer reasoned argument to those that can care about such things, and appeal to the consciences of those that have them, but ridicule is useful to modify the behavior of those not amenable to either.

I suppose that you consider this all unfair. After all, you just want to be accepted for who you are, right?
Please. I gave a plausible rebuttal.
I didn't see one. Perhaps you can cut-and-paste it again and explain what you think it rebuts and why. Remember, a rebuttal isn't merely dissent with or without what you believe instead, but your counterargument that explains why the claim must be incorrect.
Irrational according to who?
The laws of reason. Objecting to pedophilia is rational and moral because pedophilia harms people. Complaining about transexual's pronouns and bathrooms is based in making oneself more comfortable living with his bigotries that cannot be justified intellectually or morally by humanist standards.
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
The age of consent in most states is 16. So if a group of fathers wanted to marry their 16 year old daughters, do you think the liberals would be okay with it? And how difficult would it be to lower that age of consent to pre-teen? Would they be okay with that?
You know, truth be told, I’ve seen far more news stories about GOP politicians trying to lower the age of consent.
And even defend marrying 12 year olds. (That was quite the scandal!)
Voting against legal restrictions to child marriage as well.
Which has honestly left me pretty disturbed.
I would hope that such measures are called out by the rest of their colleagues. Rep or Dem, doesn’t matter

Also I’m just the messenger so don’t shoot me. Okay?
(I’m trying to see if I can link one of my country’s reporting on the issue. Since even though Murdoch owns our news as well, the international section usually contains very little bias. The other sites I’m not entirely familiar with their background enough to confidently presume they lack such bias. Since I’m not an American that also leaves me a bit in the dark admittedly lol)


Can I just say. Who cares if they’re physically able to have kids before 16? Which isn’t exactly true anyway. Way more complications for such pregnancies just by default.
Pedo alert much? Eww


There was also a story in which the source pointedly called out the same legislator’s ban proposal for gender affirming care for minors.
I’m not saying I agree or disagree with the conclusion of said source. And I recognise it’s coming from a very specific angle or agenda if you prefer

But I’ll admit that it does look a bit hypocritical to cry about freedom for the family whilst literally blocking access to something for said family. Also the obvious question in such a scenario becomes if they’re old enough to marry apparently then, why shouldn’t they be old enough to decide on treatment?

Not that I agree with child marriage of any kind, obviously. I agree with my country’s laws. 16 is our age of consent (with no more than a 7 year age gap between the couple) but you must be at least 18 to legally marry.
I’m just saying

 
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icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
For the sake of discussion, let’s just assume propaganda to some extent causes all of these problems (I’m not even sure propaganda is a meaningful term beyond being a convenient but oversimplified shorthand but it’s not too important for now).

Why do people believe propaganda in the first place?

What are the social and psychological conditions that cause such ideas to take hold?

This isn’t a Godwin, but obviously propaganda played a role in the rise of the Nazis but it’s not going to give you a great understanding to see it as the primary cause.
A bit of an oversimplification, but for this conversation I'd like to lump advertising, marketing and propaganda into the same category. I think neuroscientists probably have several theories about why these tactics work on human brains. But regardless of why they work, the overwhelming consensus is that they DO work. Almost all of the world's most profitable companies spend BILLIONS of dollars every year on ads and marketing. They wouldn't spend this money if they were not convinced it was worth it.

And politicians and activists follow suit.

I have an intuition (there have probably been studies done), that people who are less secure - a la Maslov's hierarchy - might be more susceptible to ads and such, but we're ALL susceptible. (BTW, I also suspect less educated people are also more susceptible, and I'd say there is a correlation between less well educated zip codes and holders of extremist beliefs.)

I would NOT say propaganda causes all of these problems, but I would say it at least exacerbates them.
 

Callisto

Hellenismos, BTW
Sorry that offended you. I don't see how.

And thanks for the life advice, but I'm pretty much where I want to be in life for what's left of it.
Ah, patronizing too. Not surprised.
Or maybe you meant I'll get further trying to sweettalk transphobics into a little more tolerance. I explained why I consider that a fools errand. One never sees them relent unless somebody they love comes out transsexual and they turn to compassion rather than continuing expressing their contempt. Otherwise, the best approach is ridicule and shaming. We can offer reasoned argument to those that can care about such things, and appeal to the consciences of those that have them, but ridicule is useful to modify the behavior of those not amenable to either.

I suppose that you consider this all unfair. After all, you just want to be accepted for who you are, right?

You suppose incorrectly.

I didn't see one. Perhaps you can cut-and-paste it again and explain what you think it rebuts and why. Remember, a rebuttal isn't merely dissent with or without what you believe instead, but your counterargument that explains why the claim must be incorrect.
Perhaps you can mull over the conversation instead of playing the same condescending tune? A critical mind would have noticed by now it's not reaping much return for you.

The laws of reason. Objecting to pedophilia is rational and moral because pedophilia harms people. Complaining about transexual's pronouns and bathrooms is based in making oneself more comfortable living with his bigotries that cannot be justified intellectually or morally by humanist standards.

A rather myopic take, but you do you. You've already made it clear you prefer to label others whether the context and reasons merit it. No need to repeat yourself. But hey, I get it, sweeping generalizations help maintain self-righteousness. Just label anything you disagree with as transphobic then post more uppish blether. Easy peasy.
 
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Kfox

Well-Known Member
Disagree. If it's irrational and is harmful to every member of a law-abiding group, it's bigotry.
Well refusing to refer to somebody as Zi, Xe, Cir, or whatever pronouns a wild imagination might conjure is not irrational or harmful to every member of a law abiding group, so I guess according to you, it is not bigotry huh?
Pedophiles harm people. Expressing a negative opinion about that behavior is not irrational or bigotry. Transphobia is bigotry. It's irrational to oppress such people and harmful to them.
Ya know it wasn’t very long ago when gay sex was considered harmful, and expressing a negative opinion about the behavior was not considered irrational or bigotry. But attitudes change don’t they.
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
Well refusing to refer to somebody as Zi, Xe, Cir, or whatever pronouns a wild imagination might conjure is not irrational or harmful to every member of a law abiding group, so I guess according to you, it is not bigotry huh?
I mean to be fair, all pronouns are made up and actually vary quite widely in various languages. Depending on their usage and context even
If anything English is very lazy with its use of pronouns. And indeed has evolved through the centuries. I mean when was the last time you heard someone say “thou”?

Using a few extra isn’t the end of the world. But you’d think so the way some folks whine about it though. Like geez.
So it does seem rather irrational to me, a law abiding citizen. Does that count?

Like damn, I had to constantly go back and forth between two completely different definitions of what constitutes polite conversation and preferred tittles even.
Using Zi, Xe or what have you is nothing compared to some languages and their uses of pronouns. Be thankful you speak English!

It’s just some words at the end of the day. And if it makes someone else happier, why not? Going out of your way not to does seem rather irrational and deliberately rude.

Ya know it wasn’t very long ago when gay sex was considered harmful, and expressing a negative opinion about the behavior was not considered irrational or bigotry. But attitudes change don’t they.
And then with evidence and after study after study such a position was proven to be largely inaccurate.
Care to provide current studies that suggest that children engaging in sexual activities with adults isn’t harmful?
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Ya know it wasn’t very long ago when gay sex was considered harmful, and expressing a negative opinion about the behavior was not considered irrational or bigotry. But attitudes change don’t they.
Still? Pathetic.
 

Kfox

Well-Known Member
I mean to be fair, all pronouns are made up and actually vary quite widely in various languages. Depending on their usage and context even
If anything English is very lazy with its use of pronouns. And indeed has evolved through the centuries. I mean when was the last time you heard someone say “thou”?

Using a few extra isn’t the end of the world. But you’d think so the way some folks whine about it though. Like geez.
So it does seem rather irrational to me, a law abiding citizen. Does that count?

Like damn, I had to constantly go back and forth between two completely different definitions of what constitutes polite conversation and preferred tittles even.
Using Zi, Xe or what have you is nothing compared to some languages and their uses of pronouns. Be thankful you speak English!

It’s just some words at the end of the day. And if it makes someone else happier, why not? Going out of your way not to does seem rather irrational and deliberately rude.
I was at a medical clinic a few months back, and when filling out the paperwork, one of the questions was if I had any particular pronouns they need to know about. Really? As if I can just choose to have my own pronouns? I responded that I do not have pronouns, but I do have my own adjectives; and my adjectives were "brilliant" and "handsome". The lady I handed the paperwork to did not take very well to my responses and refused to address me according to my adjectives. Was she being irrational and deliberately rude?
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Ah, patronizing too. Not surprised.
I wrote, "thanks for the life advice, but I'm pretty much where I want to be in life for what's left of it" You offered me unsolicited life advice and I politely declined, and you call that patronizing. You seem to be having an emotional response to my posting.
Perhaps you can mull over the conversation instead
So then no to having made a rebuttal as you claimed. No problem. That's the goal in dialectic - to a eventually make plausible argument that cannot be successfully rebutted. Of course, when its a cooperative effort as with scientific peer review, it goes on until such a position is reached, and those who have learned are grateful to have been taught. In discussion like this one, one makes a comment, the other rebuts it, and the original poster drops the ball as has occurred here, and the debate is over.

In a court of law, dialectic begins with an opening statement by the prosecution and a theory of a crime. If this argument is convincing to a jury and not successfully rebutted, it's time for a verdict: guilty. But perhaps the defense can poke a hole in that theory, maybe by offering an alibi for the defendant. Perhaps there is cell tower ping data suggesting that the defendant wasn't present at the scene of the crime. If this isn't rebutted, it becomes the last plausible unrebutted argument, and the jury is ready to vote for acquittal. But then, the prosecution produces photos of the suspect near the scene of the crime, resuscitating the original theory of guilt. And once again, if this cannot be successfully rebutted - if it cannot be shown that the prosecution cannot be right - the debate is over and the jury able to convict. This is dialectic, and it ends with the last plausible, unrebutted claim. Any other form of discussion is useless in deciding matters.
Just label anything you disagree with as transphobic
What I call transphobic behavior is anything demeaning, derogatory, or harmful to LGTBQ people.
Well refusing to refer to somebody as Zi, Xe, Cir, or whatever pronouns a wild imagination might conjure is not irrational or harmful to every member of a law abiding group, so I guess according to you, it is not bigotry huh?
It depends how and why you do it. I would also resist, but not out of disesteem. And I wouldn't do so angrily. Hey, I refuse to learn the names of most three-named actors. Seymore Hoffman something? The dude from the original Miami Vice with three first names - Michael David Paul? Then there's Sally Jessica Parker Rafael Mary Louise or something like that. Doogie Howser has too many names, one being Patrick (is another Harris?), which might be first, middle, or last. The point is that I can't be bothered with that, but it's not out of disapproval of who those people are.

If a trans person's requests were too complex, I might decline, but respectfully - "I don't think I can remember that."
Ya know it wasn’t very long ago when gay sex was considered harmful, and expressing a negative opinion about the behavior was not considered irrational or bigotry. But attitudes change don’t they.
Considering gay sex (relative to straight sex) harmful was always irrational, and behavior that marginalized and demonized gay people was always bigotry: irrational, applied to every member of a law-abiding community, and destructive to them. It's based in Abrahamic monotheism and its irrational proclamations about what an allegedly infinitely good god considers an abomination for whatever its arbitrary reasons might be, not empiricism.

I also wasn't long ago that this same system of thought and its analogous atheophobic had unbelievers much more marginalized as well, and yes, almost literally demonized (filled with the devil and under its sway). Go back a few centuries, and such people were executed or tortured in inquisitions. When I was born inthemid-20th century, atheists were officially deemed morally unfit to teach, adopt, coach, serve on juries, or give expert testimony.

This is church-inspired bigotry, and blowback to it is called militant atheism:

1684071746486.png
1684071806799.png


The problem for the bigots is that these groups now have a voice, and they don't like it. They preferred the bully pulpit they enjoyed until the rise of the media that gave objectors an audience began eroding at that asymmetry. The gay movement goes back a few decades, but the trans movement is newer. The rise of atheism and anti-theism (pushing back at the church) came in between. The rise of women and blacks preceded them all.

This is humanist tolerance and compassion making inroads in the unkept promises of egalitarianism ("All men are created equal") and meeting fierce obstruction from a threatened, entrenched white patriarchy. They're nervous that black lives suddenly matter, and that young black legislators or white trans legislators expect to be heard. They are also threatened by modern children's books and men in women's clothing. They march with tikis chanting, "You will not replace us" and drive vehicles into crowds. And they demean and dismiss it all with the wave of a hand: "wokeism."

Like I said, it's cultural evolution being experienced as a culture war, and I for one don't mind that these people are uncomfortable. It's to be expected. Are you old enough to remember when a mixed-race couple was stared at disapprovingly? Today, I think that most of that is gone. Do you remember when divorcee meant loose woman, and it was fine to refer to women as dames and broads? That kind of thinking seems to have disappeared as well, but none of those changes came without fighting the bigots.
 

Kfox

Well-Known Member
It depends how and why you do it. I would also resist, but not out of disesteem. And I wouldn't do so angrily. Hey, I refuse to learn the names of most three-named actors. Seymore Hoffman something? The dude from the original Miami Vice with three first names - Michael David Paul? Then there's Sally Jessica Parker Rafael Mary Louise or something like that. Doogie Howser has too many names, one being Patrick (is another Harris?), which might be first, middle, or last. The point is that I can't be bothered with that, but it's not out of disapproval of who those people are.

If a trans person's requests were too complex, I might decline, but respectfully - "I don't think I can remember that."
I never said anything about being a jerk about it, I only said to not use preferred pronouns is not something done out of irrational fear.
 

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
I never said anything about being a jerk about it, I only said to not use preferred pronouns is not something done out of irrational fear.
It boils down to being rude or hostile towards others - or meddling in their lives - over an irrational, emotional hang up.

It's one thing to simply disagree with or not accept something, but its another to go out of one's way to harass and antagonize others over it.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
It boils down to being rude or hostile towards others - or meddling in their lives - over an irrational, emotional hang up.

It's one thing to simply disagree with or not accept something, but its another to go out of one's way to harass and antagonize others over it.
At least two contexts are worth considering:

1 - A personal, one-on-one context, in which not being rude seems reasonable.
2 - A general "you must conform to a person's pronouns" rule, which seems dangerous.
 

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
At least two contexts are worth considering:

1 - A personal, one-on-one context, in which not being rude seems reasonable.
2 - A general "you must conform to a person's pronouns" rule, which seems dangerous.
How would it be "dangerous"? Even if you disagree with transgenderism being a valid condition, how hard is it to humor them for the sake of politeness and civility?
 

Kfox

Well-Known Member
It boils down to being rude or hostile towards others - or meddling in their lives - over an irrational, emotional hang up.

It's one thing to simply disagree with or not accept something, but its another to go out of one's way to harass and antagonize others over it.
I think most of the harassing and antagonizing is coming from the camp quick to call someone transphobic for refusing to use preferred pronouns.
How would it be "dangerous"? Even if you disagree with transgenderism being a valid condition, how hard is it to humor them for the sake of politeness and civility?
They don't want to be humored, they want to be believed; and if you don't believe them, that is where their condemnation comes from. Perhaps it is them who should realize they are living in a world where everybody is not going to believe everything you say, and remain respectful for the sake of politeness and civility.
 
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Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
If you had an answer, you would have given it by now. Instead you attempt to change the subject.
I have a hard time believing you are ignorant of the recent push from Conservatives to ban books.
And I'd feel more inclined to discuss it if you engaged in a productive discourse. But your continued cutting out the hatred part that also defines phobia indicates that a productive discourse is not high on your agenda. Your continued reluctance to acknowledge rude behavior as rude is why I don't feel motivated to say anythinf more than I'm pretty sure you are aware of recent efforts to remove books from library shelves.
 
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