Transphobia

[icehorse]

Huh? "Transgenders" isn't a word. And what views?

To me, the only "transphobia" is denying that gender/sex dysphoria is real and thinking we're all just delusional or crazy. Honestly, a lot of that is probably a symptom of the times and all the nonsense in the media that's been presented about it lately; most people are rather ignorant about it because it was previously a rather rare thing and only adult would transition and they tended to keep it to themselves. A lot of stuff coming from the activists and self-styled advocates isn't all that helpful, either (many of whom aren't even trans at all and think they speak for all of us, like woke white people thinking they speak for black people).

I have several issues with some of the "solutions" trans-activists have cooked up to help the trans community. I think the core problem I have is that trans-activism is frequently dogmatic. In other words the message we hear from these activists is:

"Here's our definition of the problem, and here's our solution, and if you disagree with us - even a tiny bit - you're a horrible, trans-phobic human being, who probably ought to get canceled."

I'm not trans, so I can never fully appreciate what trans people experience. With that said, being trans does not somehow convey onto a person expertise in societal changes, social problem solving, law and policy issues, and so on.

 

[Kfox]

Withoug explanation. Like many who are opposed to the Bible hold those positions not due to irrational thoughts or emotions but because they've read the Bible amd object to the violence and repression it commands, with many being mistreated by the Church. When people take your rights it's not a phobia to hold a grudge against those who took them.

Phobia as being described has nothing to do with holding a grudge.

But when you look at something like negrophobia we very typically see pseudosciences and histories to excuse amd defend their bigotry against people who just exist. Their was also a strong phobia of those of Asian descent (many who were American born) during WWII.

If you are gonna define phobia as disdain towards someone, you need to be consistent and apply the phobia to ALL disdain, not just the ones you personally approve of.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

If you are gonna define phobia as disdain towards someone, you need to be consistent and apply the phobia to ALL disdain, not just the ones you personally approve of.

Why not pick up a dictionary, learn some entomology and read more? The usage of the word phobia today is no different than it was a century and more ago.
The only thing that's changed is there are fewer of us who judge groups of people negatively just because they exist.

Phobia as being described has nothing to do with holding a grudge.

Im willing to bet most animosity towards Christianity is based in how heinous and atrocious the Bible is along with Christians leading the charge against minorities, women's rights, LGBT rights and their staunch oppositionto harm reduction programs like needle exchanges.

 

[Kfox]

Why not pick up a dictionary, learn some entomology and read more? The usage of the word phobia today is no different than it was a century and more ago.
The only thing that's changed is there are fewer of us who judge groups of people negatively just because they exist.

Really? Name a word that includes "phobia" that was used 100 years ago to discribe disdain, the same way it is used today.

Im willing to bet most animosity towards Christianity is based in how heinous and atrocious the Bible is along with Christians leading the charge against minorities, women's rights, LGBT rights and their staunch oppositionto harm reduction programs like needle exchanges.

What you are saying would make sense if "Christianphobia" were a commonly used term...... but it's not. Thus your argument fails.

 

[Balthazzar]

Why would transphobia be an issue if not for fear of being duped by someone who identifies as one? I would suggest that it's not the gender role identified with that people fear, but rather the specifics attached to the person who identifies as a transgender individual. A straight male will typically not be happy to find out that his "new" love interest was identified as a male at birth. It's more of an anxiety and given the nature of human attraction, social norms in terms of sex appeal, and the uncanny ability for some to adapt to those specifics as transgender adults, it is an issue. I'll also suggest it to be a deceptive practice to intentionally trick others into being attracted to them knowing they wouldn't be otherwise. Men like myself are attracted to mothering types, but social norms and visual attraction always play a role in the choosing of potential "worth speaking to people". As a man, I'm not looking for a transgender person. My interest would be in more of a mothering type woman with visual sex appeal. I don't think wasting peoples time is all that productive. The reason for my view obvious. Some would classify me as being a transphobic male and they might be accurate in that assessment depending on how they are defining the term. Otherwise, we get along just fine and have no issues at all.

 

[Kfox]

Why would transphobia be an issue if not for fear of being duped by someone who identifies as one? I would suggest that it's not the gender role identified with that people fear, but rather the specifics attached to the person who identifies as a transgender individual. A straight male will typically not be happy to find out that his "new" love interest was identified as a male at birth. It's more of an anxiety and given the nature of human attraction, social norms in terms of sex appeal, and the uncanny ability for some to adapt to those specifics as transgender adults, it is an issue. I'll also suggest it to be a deceptive practice to intentionally trick others into being attracted to them knowing they wouldn't be otherwise. Men like myself are attracted to mothering types, but social norms and visual attraction always play a role in the choosing of potential "worth speaking to people". As a man, I'm not looking for a transgender person. My interest would be in more of a mothering type woman with visual sex appeal. I don't think wasting peoples time is all that productive. The reason for my view obvious. Some would classify me as being a transphobic male and they might be accurate in that assessment depending on how they are defining the term. Otherwise, we get along just fine and have no issues at all.

Perhaps you should start a new thread asking your question; you will likely get better answers.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Im willing to bet most animosity towards Christianity is based in how heinous and atrocious the Bible is along with Christians leading the charge against minorities, women's rights, LGBT rights and their staunch oppositionto harm reduction programs like needle exchanges.

He wants you (and me) to call it Christophobia and yourself a Christophobe. I suspect that he is offended by words like homophobia, transphobia, and atheophobia (and racist and antisemite) when applied to him, and assumes that you or I wouldn't like being called a Christophobe. I wouldn't mind reading that word about myself. It's not insulting.

Look at all the work people do to try to suppress the use of such words to describe their bigotries, such as making an etymological argument that "-phobia" means fear and they don't fear:

• "An etymological fallacy is committed when an argument makes a claim about the present meaning of a word based exclusively on that word's etymology. It is a genetic fallacy that holds a word's historical meaning to be its sole valid meaning and that its present-day meaning is invalid."

A straight male will typically not be happy to find out that his "new" love interest was identified as a male at birth. It's more of an anxiety

That's how dating goes.

And why should finding out that your date has an outie instead of an innie cause anxiety rather than say disappointment? You just move on like you would if you discovered some other deal-breaker for you about her, which for me would include things like substance abuse and various other unacceptable habits like being chronically late. None of these would cause anxiety for me, just disappointment.

I'll also suggest it to be a deceptive practice to intentionally trick others into being attracted to them knowing they wouldn't be otherwise.

Disagree that there is anything sinister or immoral there. People are just being who they want to be even when alone, not trying to deceive. And I'd bet that most transexuals let their potential partners know what's what before the reveal, which sounds like a dangerous practice because of people who would freak out and become violent.

 

[Balthazzar]

He wants you (and me) to call it Christophobia and yourself a Christophobe. I suspect that he is offended by words like homophobia, transphobia, and atheophobia (and racist and antisemite) when applied to him, and assumes that you or I wouldn't like being called a Christophobe. I wouldn't mind reading that word about myself. It's not insulting.

Look at all the work people do to try to suppress the use of such words to describe their bigotries, such as making an etymological argument that "-phobia" means fear and they don't fear:

• "An etymological fallacy is committed when an argument makes a claim about the present meaning of a word based exclusively on that word's etymology. It is a genetic fallacy that holds a word's historical meaning to be its sole valid meaning and that its present-day meaning is invalid."

That's how dating goes.

And why should finding out that your date has an outie instead of an innie cause anxiety rather than say disappointment? You just move on like you would if you discovered some other deal-breaker for you about her, which for me would include things like substance abuse and various other unacceptable habits like being chronically late. None of these would cause anxiety for me, just disappointment.

Disagree that there is anything sinister or immoral there. People are just being who they want to be even when alone, not trying to deceive. And I'd bet that most transexuals let their potential partners know what's what before the reveal, which sounds like a dangerous practice because of people who would freak out and become violent.

I'd prefer to err on the side of caution and true compatibility, even if and when it may take a few extra if not many years to do so. Disappointment wouldn't begin to define the reality of this type of intentional deception. Quite honestly, and very likely due to me not being a hedonist but rather a pro - creator, I find your apathy to be a little more than disturbing. I will agree with substance abuse being a deal breaker - I've been there and done that and I refuse to go back. I do, however honor those with the perseverance to refrain from past substance abuse. I'd be a hypocrite not to.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Act on people not liking and/or hating me?
It doesn't bother me a bit.
...

Hope it works in practice for all your interactions.

 

[Kfox]

That's how dating goes.

And why should finding out that your date has an outie instead of an innie cause anxiety rather than say disappointment? You just move on like you would if you discovered some other deal-breaker for you about her, which for me would include things like substance abuse and various other unacceptable habits like being chronically late. None of these would cause anxiety for me, just disappointment.

Depends on who is defining you, if you refuse to date a transwoman because you only like biological women, you are a bigot.

Many LGBT Activists Now Claim You Are A Bigot If You Refuse to Date People Who Are Transgender

Whether you have thought about this topic before or not, it is one that weighs heavy in a number of ways these days. People are quite divided on their opinions,

awarenessact.com

 

[Nakosis]

Depends on who is defining you, if you refuse to date a transwoman because you only like biological women, you are a bigot.

Many LGBT Activists Now Claim You Are A Bigot If You Refuse to Date People Who Are Transgender

Whether you have thought about this topic before or not, it is one that weighs heavy in a number of ways these days. People are quite divided on their opinions,

awarenessact.com

I suppose they see it as unreasonable to have a preference in sexual partner?

For me personally, I find trans women too masculine. Even women with masculine features, I don't find attractive.
Some do and that is fine with me.
So if that is being a bigot, I guess it is.

I yams what I yams.

 

[icehorse]

Look at all the work people do to try to suppress the use of such words to describe their bigotries, such as making an etymological argument that "-phobia" means fear and they don't fear:

• "An etymological fallacy is committed when an argument makes a claim about the present meaning of a word based exclusively on that word's etymology. It is a genetic fallacy that holds a word's historical meaning to be its sole valid meaning and that its present-day meaning is invalid."

The other side of that coin is that these new meanings are often used to support propagandistic or coercive agendas. So "Xphobia" might not mean what it would have meant 100 years ago, but the new term was coined partly to slander people.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Disappointment wouldn't begin to define the reality of this type of intentional deception.

I already mentioned that I disagreed regarding attempted deception and gave my argument. You didn't acknowledge seeing it much less explain why you disagree, so you repeating you comment isn't meaningful.

likely due to me not being a hedonist but rather a pro - creator, I find your apathy to be a little more than disturbing.

Apathy? Are you referring to my tolerance of LGBTQ? I'm a humanist. Our values are rational and compassionate, so I have no reason to make such people's lives harder -nobody telling me that a good god want their hell to begin on earth antemortem.

Interesting that you see hedonist and procreator as conflicting options. The pursuit of satisfaction has defined my life, since I don't have any religion telling me to feel guilty about experiencing pleasure, nature wired us to seek what is pleasant and avoid the unpleasant, and it's worked out well despite the warnings from the faithful that it would be otherwise.

if you refuse to date a transwoman because you only like biological women, you are a bigot.

Nah. That's a minority position. Virtually nobody is trying to get you to sleep with people that don't appeal to you.

So "Xphobia" might not mean what it would have meant 100 years ago, but the new term was coined partly to slander people.

Maybe. I don't have a problem with bigots being made uncomfortable - with those crying "woke" being called Neanderthal This is a culture war, a battle between the elements that support tolerance and the intolerant. Ridicule is a valuable tool when reasoning is ineffective. We can offer reasoned argument to those that care about such things, and appeal to the consciences of those that have them, but ridicule is useful for pushing back at those not amenable to either.

 

[Kfox]

I suppose they see it as unreasonable to have a preference in sexual partner?

For me personally, I find trans women too masculine. Even women with masculine features, I don't find attractive.
Some do and that is fine with me.
So if that is being a bigot, I guess it is.

I yams what I yams.

Rather than assume I am what unreasonable people call me, I simply refuse to allow people I disagree with define me.

 

[Kfox]

Nah. That's a minority position. Virtually nobody is trying to get you to sleep with people that don't appeal to you.

It may be a bit more common than you think it is; especially among activists. But let's face it; virtually nobody was claiming biological men who identify as women should have access to public restroom and shower facilities designated for women; yet today........Don't assume just because something is not popular today that it will not be popular tomorrow.

 

[Augustus]

The other side of that coin is that these new meanings are often used to support propagandistic or coercive agendas. So "Xphobia" might not mean what it would have meant 100 years ago, but the new term was coined partly to slander people.

I just happened to notice this the other day. FWIW, George Orwell was using -phobia in 1945 to criticise the "woke" people of his day

(from "Notes on nationalism")

Negative Nationalism

1. Anglophobia. Within the intelligentsia, a derisive and mildly hostile attitude towards Britain is more or less compulsory, but it is an unfaked emotion in many cases. During the war it was manifested in the defeatism of the intelligentsia, which persisted long after it had become clear that the Axis powers could not win. Many people were undisguisedly pleased when Singapore fell or when the British were driven out of Greece, and there was a remarkable unwillingness to believe in good news, e.g. el Alamein, or the number of German planes shot down in the Battle of Britain. English left-wing intellectuals did not, of course, actually want the Germans or Japanese to win the war, but many of them could not help getting a certain kick out of seeing their own country humiliated, and wanted to feel that the final victory would be due to Russia, or perhaps America, and not to Britain. In foreign politics many intellectuals follow the principle that any faction backed by Britain must be in the wrong. As a result, ‘enlightened’ opinion is quite largely a mirror-image of Conservative policy. Anglophobia is always liable to reversal, hence that fairly common spectacle, the pacifist of one war who is a bellicist in the next.

Notes on Nationalism | The Orwell Foundation

"By ‘nationalism’ I mean first of all the habit of assuming that human beings can be classified like insects and that whole blocks of millions or tens of millions of people can be confidently labelled 'good' or 'bad'."

www.orwellfoundation.com

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Really? Name a word that includes "phobia" that was used 100 years ago to discribe disdain, the same way it is used today.

It's modern use (the word itself comes from the Greek god Phobos) was defined about 200 years ago as “a fear of an imaginary evil, or an undue fear of a real one.” And ever since we've been using it as a suffix in a way that has changed very little.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

It may be a bit more common than you think it is; especially among activists. But let's face it; virtually nobody was claiming biological men who identify as women should have access to public restroom and shower facilities designated for women; yet today........Don't assume just because something is not popular today that it will not be popular tomorrow.

Don't assume your ignorance of history makes you right.

 

[Nimos]

To my understanding people have transphobia if they don't agree with the views on transgenders.

I think there is more to this than simply not agreeing with the views on transgenders. For instance, I do not think that just because a person identifies as a given gender, is enough for such a person to demand "special" treatment or for society to simply have to adjust to that. For instance, men that identify as women suddenly participate in women's sports, demanding to use women's bathrooms etc.

However, that doesn't mean that I'm transphobic, in fact, I couldn't care less what people identify as, what cloth the wear or what name they prefer. That is their own choice, but we can't expect society to adjust to any identity that people feel like, it simply wouldn't work.

And I think Piers Morgan makes a good point, despite her not taking him seriously or accepting his point simply because it doesn't fit her agenda.

Because why isn't he allowed to do this if anything goes?

If this is a huge problem, then they have to make gender-free toilets and bathrooms everywhere. And then they will have to make special transgender sports events. I don't think there is any easy solution, but people asking questions about it, such as Piers Morgan, doesn't automatically make them transphobic.

 

[We Never Know]

I think there is more to this than simply not agreeing with the views on transgenders. For instance, I do not think that just because a person identifies as a given gender, is enough for such a person to demand "special" treatment or for society to simply have to adjust to that. For instance, men that identify as women suddenly participate in women's sports, demanding to use women's bathrooms etc.

However, that doesn't mean that I'm transphobic, in fact, I couldn't care less what people identify as, what cloth the wear or what name they prefer. That is their own choice, but we can't expect society to adjust to any identity that people feel like, it simply wouldn't work.

And I think Piers Morgan makes a good point, despite her not taking him seriously or accepting his point simply because it doesn't fit her agenda.

Because why isn't he allowed to do this if anything goes?

If this is a huge problem, then they have to make gender-free toilets and bathrooms everywhere. And then they will have to make special transgender sports events. I don't think there is any easy solution, but people asking questions about it, such as Piers Morgan, doesn't automatically make them transphobic.

I agree