Trigger warning: Prolife with exceptions? Abortion debate.

[columbus]

Thank God for you. I agree.

I don't mean this personally, because I don't know you well enough.
But I have a huge problem with the term "ProLife", as its generally used. Most of the people I know who apply the label to themselves are anything but ProLife.
I oppose virtually every method people have for choosing death for other human beings. I am ProLife. Most of the people I know who adopt the label are merely opposed to feticide rights. That's not the same at all.
Opposing feticide rights, while also opposing comprehensive sex ed and access to contraceptives is not ProLife. Supporting environmental damage and pre-emptive wars and economic policies that result in desperately poor people and Capital Punishment (and any ProDeath stance) is NOT ProLife.

I find the term ProLife generally a misnomer. So much so, I see it as blatantly dishonest. Most ProLifers are much more ProDeathers.

Not all, and maybe not you. But most.
Tom

 

[Brickjectivity]

Anyway I often feel that women are not as rational as men, and I'm one of the least misogynistic men you will ever encounter. I genuinely don't think that you girls are all there. Maybe I should be in control of your choices, after all?

To clarify my point and make myself less horrible sounding, what I mean here is that I think moderate legislation about abortion is what we already have but that much of the attitudes called pro-life are pretentious. That is, there are attempts to substitute laws in for judgment of mothers, and it simply doesn't belong in their place. There is a sudden lack of confidence in mothers as if the lawmakers can do better, and this I think proceeds from the same part of the heart as thinking that women deserve no suffrage.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I don't mean this personally, because I don't know you well enough.
But I have a huge problem with the term "ProLife", as its generally used. Most of the people I know who apply the label to themselves are anything but ProLife.
I oppose virtually every method people have for choosing death for other human beings. I am ProLife. Most of the people I know who adopt the label are merely opposed to feticide rights. That's not the same at all.
Opposing feticide rights, while also opposing comprehensive sex ed and access to contraceptives is not ProLife. Supporting environmental damage and pre-emptive wars and economic policies that result in desperately poor people and Capital Punishment (and any ProDeath stance) is NOT ProLife.

I find the term ProLife generally a misnomer. So much so, I see it as blatantly dishonest. Most ProLifers are much more ProDeathers.

Not all, and maybe not you. But most.
Tom

FWIW, I've found that if people call themselves "pro-life," they generally at least also oppose compassionate end-of-life care.

 

[shmogie]

"As many as 75 percent of fertilized eggs do not go on to result in a full-term pregnancy."

In the same study that found 22 percent of conceptions fail to implant, it was also found that 31 percent of pregnancies confirmed after implantation end in miscarriage. That would mean that about one in three pregnancies miscarries."
source
​

In as much as god is in charge of nature---he can let stuff happen or prevent it---he's responsible for the 75% spontaneous abortions that occur with un-implanted eggs. Of course if you don't believe a simple fertilized human egg qualifies as life, you could also consider that he's responsible for the 31% of spontaneous abortions that occur with implanted eggs. Either way, these rates are far higher than the 19% of pregnancies that end in elected abortions.

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Nonsense. God doesn´t cause airplanes to fall out of the sky and he doesn´t cause spontaneous abortions.

The world does not function as God designed it. There are a myriad of forces that cause bad things to happen that exist outside of Gods will.

Because, for now, he allows these things to run their natural courses in no way makes God responsible.

He created gravity, and it causes a poorly maintained plane to plummet to the ground, not His fault.

Fertilized or unfertilized eggs are one thing, a fully formed functioning human being is another.

The Bible makes it clear as to who the the prince of this world is, and why he is exercising control for now, and when and how his control will end.

You ought to read about it

 

[shmogie]

To clarify my point and make myself less horrible sounding, what I mean here is that I think moderate legislation about abortion is what we already have but that much of the attitudes called pro-life are pretentious. That is, there are attempts to substitute laws in for judgment of mothers, and it simply doesn't belong in their place. There is a sudden lack of confidence in mothers as if the lawmakers can do better, and this I think proceeds from the same part of the heart as thinking that women deserve no suffrage.

The Constitution applies to everyone, whether they like it or not.

The ¨judgement of mothers¨ cannot be substituted for the Constitution.

Murder is murder, clearly defined, with substantial precedent. It is bizarre that one can kill a pregnant woman and be charged with two murders, yet a mother and a doctor can kill a fully formed. functioning human, and be shielded by the unenumerated right of privacy.

Right out of Aliceś rabbit hole

 

[BSM1]

Nonsense. God doesn´t cause airplanes to fall out of the sky and he doesn´t cause spontaneous abortions.

The world does not function as God designed it. There are a myriad of forces that cause bad things to happen that exist outside of Gods will.

Because, for now, he allows these things to run their natural courses in no way makes God responsible.

He created gravity, and it causes a poorly maintained plane to plummet to the ground, not His fault.

Fertilized or unfertilized eggs are one thing, a fully formed functioning human being is another.

The Bible makes it clear as to who the the prince of this world is, and why he is exercising control for now, and when and how his control will end.

You ought to read about it

Sooo...are you saying that there is something that God can't control? Or forces that are greater or as great as God?

 

[Brickjectivity]

The Constitution applies to everyone, whether they like it or not.

Except when it gives special privileges to some people and not others. Its obviously a bit of hopefulness and guesswork about the future, some future that the people writing it don't see happening in their own lifetimes. Certainly they never envisioned the civil war and such extensive slavery nor womens suffrage. The writers did their best thats all.

 

[Skwim]

Nonsense. God doesn´t cause airplanes to fall out of the sky and he doesn´t cause spontaneous abortions.

The world does not function as God designed it. There are a myriad of forces that cause bad things to happen that exist outside of Gods will.

Because, for now, he allows these things to run their natural courses in no way makes God responsible.

It's a sin of omission, or in legalese, a failure to rescue.

"A duty to rescue is a concept in tort law that arises in a number of cases, describing a circumstance in which a party [in this case, god] can be held liable for failing to come to the rescue of another party [in this case, an unborn human life] who could face potential injury or death without being rescued."
Source: Wikipedia.​

Being omniscient, god knows the embryo/fetus will die unless he intervenes--being omnipotent god can do anything---so it's up to god whether the embryo/fetus dies or not. If it dies it's because he decided it should. Ergo, god is responsible for spontaneous and threatened abortions.

Fertilized or unfertilized eggs are one thing, a fully formed functioning human being is another.

Ah ha, you do draw the line somewhere. And what was it? Oh yes, "At the end of the FIRST trimester." After 13th weeks, into the second trimester, the death of the fetus amounts to an abortion. According to the experts, 5% of all pregnancies are "lost" during the second trimester. And considering that "Overall, about 10 to 20 percent of all recognized pregnancies and 30 to 40 percent of all conceptions end in pregnancy loss,"* the second trimester 5% loss amounts to between a fourth and and a half of all of god's abortions.

*source

.

 

[sun rise]

FWIW, I've found that if people call themselves "pro-life," they generally at least also oppose compassionate end-of-life care.

The biggest exception is the Catholic Church which is mostly consistent including being against the death penalty and in favor of measures to enhance the quality of life of those on the bottom. They oppose suicide in any form as well.

People can disagree with them, but at least they are operating from a clearly defined position rather than picking and choosing.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

I'm in favor of women being able to control their own bodies, so if they don't want a baby, they should keep their knees together.

Or get an abortion.

Killing a human is murder.

Only when it is done by another human being, is deliberate, and is illegal.

Yawn. If you don't want a baby, just used birth control or have your tubes removed.

Or get an abortion.

This is my body, I have the right to live.

Not until you reached a certain degree of development. You have no rights before that.

Please identify for me the Amendment in the Constitution that says a person must be autonomous to actually be a person.

Look to the statutes.

The world does not function as God designed it.

Then that god is not omnipotent.

 

[Jumi]

If we don't leave room for exceptions, we're not being human. I read about this woman who was raising a kid after she got raped while she was still a kid and didn't get abortion. Guess how well her life will turn out that she's dropped out of school and the rapist will be out of jail when the kid is getting to be a teen.

 

[Jumi]

I'm in favor of women being able to control their own bodies, so if they don't want a baby, they should keep their knees together.

Your observation is perfectly correct

For such sentences, I ask how would you blame someone who was raped? Would you force them to have and keep the baby?

 

[Father Heathen]

Any and all reduction of human population and impact is a good thing.

Does this include war, disease, famine, suicide, and capital punishment?

 

[Father Heathen]

I'm in favor of women being able to control their own bodies, so if they don't want a baby, they should keep their knees together.

If someone isn't responsible enough to use contraceptives, how could you expect them to be responsible enough for motherhood?

 

[Jumi]

Abortion is murder outside of medical need. See my other post about the inherent misogyny of the abortion industry and how birth control or women having their tubes removed for birth control is more logical. Consent to unprotected sex is consent to pregnancy, so please be responsible.

What if... they weren't consenting in the first place? Because of rape, poking holes or some other jerk move. Or if they don't have access to adequate healthcare?

 

[Jumi]

I wonder how the pro-life people view this Reproductive coercion - Wikipedia

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The biggest exception is the Catholic Church which is mostly consistent including being against the death penalty and in favor of measures to enhance the quality of life of those on the bottom. They oppose suicide in any form as well.

People can disagree with them, but at least they are operating from a clearly defined position rather than picking and choosing.

When it comes to end-of-life care, clearly defined and devoid of compassion:

Woman had assisted-death assessment on sidewalk outside Catholic hospital | The Star

 

[shmogie]

Or get an abortion.



Only when it is done by another human being, is deliberate, and is illegal.



Or get an abortion.



Not until you reached a certain degree of development. You have no rights before that.



Look to the statute


Then that god is not omnipotent.

God is omnipotent, He simply chooses not to correct the world, yet.

By ´ the statutes¨ you mean roe v. wade. The Supremes have overturned the decisions of prior courts before, they will overturn or modify roe v. wade

 

[shmogie]

When it comes to end-of-life care, clearly defined and devoid of compassion:

Woman had assisted-death assessment on sidewalk outside Catholic hospital | The Star

End of life care, and enabling suicide are two different things. If you want to kill yourself or have someone kill you, go to a hospital that provides this service.

Most Christian hospitals cannot.

Jacking someone around over policy as happened to this woman is unconscionable

 

[shmogie]

When it comes to end-of-life care, clearly defined and devoid of compassion:

Woman had assisted-death assessment on sidewalk outside Catholic hospital | The Star

End of life care, and enabling suicide are two different things. If you want to kill yourself or have someone kill you, go to a hospital that provides this service.

Most Christian hospitals cannot.

Jacking someone around over policy as happened to this woman is unconscionable