Trinitarians and Christening

[Serenity7855]

disciple

Serenity

It would be pointless to be baptized without a belief/faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Even that takes nothing away from the fact baptism is an essential function for entry into the Kingdom of God.

disciple

Quote the Biblical Scripture to back up this opinion. I would encourage you to check out the threads on RF that refer to baptism, and verify for yourself that your belief actually isn't Scriptural.

Serenity

We are told that if we are not baptized that we will not be able to be in the presence of our God in his Kingdom. I think that is important, regardless as to who was performing the ordinance.

disciple

No, we are not. Quote the Verse if you believe in that.

John 3

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Mark 16

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

 

[Desert Snake]

John 3

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

This is debatable, we don't really know what "born of water" means here.

Mark 16

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

This doesn't say that one has to be baptized, in fact if one is to take it literally, it seems to imply that baptism is only symbolic.

 

[Serenity7855]

Disciple

Not at all. I've refuted this on other threads. Baptism is for the repenting of sins and is used for conversion, that is the BIBLICAL use and description. It's not magical or a ticket to heaven.

Yet again I agree, however, it is but one requirement. There are many.

Yet again I agree, however, it is but one requirement. There are many.
It's not a requirement, and there aren't 'many' requirements, would you care to list them?

Baptism is not used for conversion. One would expect the person to be converted before his toes hit the baptismal waters and able to confess that Jesus is the Christ.

It would require a separate thread to discuss the other requirements, however, keeping the commandments is one as is renewal of your baptismal covenants when partaking of the sacrament.

Just because you refuted it on another thread does not automatically mean that the refutation is accurate. It obviously is not.

 

[Desert Snake]

Disciple






Baptism is not used for conversion. One would expect the person to be converted before his toes hit the baptismal waters and able to confess that Jesus is the Christ.

It would require a separate thread to discuss the other requirements, however, keeping the commandments is one as is renewal of your baptismal covenants when partaking of the sacrament.

Just because you refuted it on another thread does not automatically mean that the refutation is accurate. It obviously is not.

Your verses do not back up your claim, if anything they back up the idea that baptism is merely symbolic for repenting of sins, similar to the Jewish Mikvah. Keep in mind Jesus was Nazarene, a sect deriving from Essenes, who baptized differently from other Jews anyway, there is no reall reason to assume Christian baptism was more than the Essene style of Mikvah, making it not akin to salvation.

As for "obviously not" you really should check the other threads where relevant verses are provided showing only Jesus had the authority to make baptism anything other than repentance oriented.

 

[Serenity7855]

[/COLOR][/B]

This doesn't say that one has to be baptized, in fact if one is to take it literally, it seems to imply that baptism is only symbolic.

OK. I cannot argue with that kind of logic. It seems pretty obvious to me that born of water means to be baptized in water plus there is scriptures that confirms what being born of water means but you will no doubt justify those into your own interpretations. That is what we do.

That doesn't tell us that one needs to be baptized. What does it tell you as it seems simple to me and God made it simple for our understanding not complex to fool us.

Mark 16

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

23 Verily I say unto you, that whoso repenteth of his sins through your words, and desireth to be baptized in my name, on this wise shall ye baptize them—Behold, ye shall go down and stand in the water, and in my name shall ye baptize them
.
24 And now behold, these are the words which ye shall say, calling them by name, saying:


25 Having authority given me of Jesus Christ, I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Amen.


26 And then shall ye immerse them in the water, and come forth again out of the water.


27 And after this manner shall ye baptize in my name; for behold, verily I say unto you, that the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost are one; and I am in the Father, and the Father in me, and the Father and I are one.

 

[Desert Snake]

OK. I cannot argue with that kind of logic. It seems pretty obvious to me that born of water means to be baptized in water plus there is scriptures that confirms what being born of water means but you will no doubt justify those into your own interpretations. That is what we do.

That isn't what I do, I don't care either way.

That doesn't tell us that one needs to be baptized. What does it tell you as it seems simple to me and God made it simple for our understanding not complex to fool us.

'Simple' would have been a direct command that everyone has to baptized, and in the manner you are saying is correct. It isn't there, it isn't simple, of course, otherwise there wouldn't be any arguments over it, at least not rational arguments.

Mark 16

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Yes, this is saying that although baptism is an outward sign, it is the belief that actually matters. This refutes your own argument.

 

[Ingledsva]

Ingledsva



This really worries me. The scriptures make it perfectly clear that we cannot enter the Kingdom of God without first being baptized for the remission of sin. This Pastor is preaching false doctrine that has the potential of preventing entry into his Kingdom should anyone take his word to be true.

John 10

I agree with half of your second point.

36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

They specifically mentioned cases where people do not have access to baptism before their deaths, and said for them to belive in Jesus and be sent to hell for not being baptized - would negate the whole message of Jesus. Thus belief is required - not baptism. And what about infants and children that die? Baptism is done after the conversion - if one can - as a symbol to others, and in memory of Jesus.

Also, texts dealing specifically with salvation - don't mention baptism.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Romans 10:9 "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."
Romans 10”13 "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved"
Jesus didn't have to be baptized - he did it as a symbol - and so for everyone else.

 

[Serenity7855]

They specifically mentioned cases where people do not have access to baptism before their deaths, and said for them to belive in Jesus and be sent to hell for not being baptized - would negate the whole message of Jesus. Thus belief is required - not baptism. And what about infants and children that die? Baptism is done after the conversion - if one can - as a symbol to others, and in memory of Jesus.

I find it hard to invision a situation where one could not find water to be baptized in. More important than that. If we are commanded to be baptized I believe that God will make it possible for that to take place Matthew 6 - 26 Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they? If your heart desires baptism then God will make it possible.
Also, texts dealing specifically with salvation - don't mention baptism.

No, Salvation is not dependant on baptism or visa versa. Salvation come to all who believe that Jesus is the Christ and Saviour of mankind. What we are told though is entry into the Kingdom of God is predicated on whether we have confessed that Jesus is the Christ and have entered the waters of Baptism. Or at least that is how I have interpreted the scriptures.

Jesus didn't have to be baptized - he did it as a symbol - and so for everyone else.

I am sorry but I disagree. Jesus said 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Acts

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

4 Wherefore, I would that ye should remember that I have spoken unto you concerning that prophet which the Lord showed unto me, that should baptize the Lamb of God, which should take away the sins of the world.

5 And now, if the Lamb of God, he being holy, should have need to be baptized by water, to fulfil all righteousness, O then, how much more need have we, being unholy, to be baptized, yea, even by water!

6 And now, I would ask of you, my beloved brethren, wherein the Lamb of God did fulfil all righteousness in being baptized by water?

7 Know ye not that he was holy? But notwithstanding he being holy, he showeth unto the children of men that, according to the flesh he humbleth himself before the Father, and witnesseth unto the Father that he would be obedient unto him in keeping his commandments.

8 Wherefore, after he was baptized with water the Holy Ghost descended upon him in the form of a dove.

9 And again, it showeth unto the children of men the straitness of the path, and the narrowness of the gate, by which they should enter, he having set the example before them.

10 And he said unto the children of men: Follow thou me. Wherefore, my beloved brethren, can we follow Jesus save we shall be willing to keep the commandments of the Father?

11 And the Father said: Repent ye, repent ye, and be baptized in the name of my Beloved Son.

12 And also, the voice of the Son came unto me, saying: He that is baptized in my name, to him will the Father give the Holy Ghost, like unto me; wherefore, follow me, and do the things which ye have seen me do.

13 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, I know that if ye shall follow the Son, with full purpose of heart, acting no hypocrisy and no deception before God, but with real intent, repenting of your sins, witnessing unto the Father that ye are willing to take upon you the name of Christ, by baptism—yea, by following your Lord and your Savior down into the water, according to his word, behold, then shall ye receive the Holy Ghost; yea, then cometh the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost; and then can ye speak with the tongue of angels, and shout praises unto the Holy One of Israel.

14 But, behold, my beloved brethren, thus came the voice of the Son unto me, saying: After ye have repented of your sins, and witnessed unto the Father that ye are willing to keep my commandments, by the baptism of water, and have received the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost, and can speak with a new tongue, yea, even with the tongue of angels, and after this should deny me, it would have been better for you that ye had not known me.

 

[allright]

The earliest manuscripts end Mark at Chapter16 verse 8 Mark is the Gospel presenting Jesus as God's suffering servant on earth starting his ministry with his baptism by John the Baptist and ending his earthly ministry with his death and burial.
Nowhere in the letters is baptism presented as a requirement of salvation. In fact Paul said in 1 Corinthians "I thank God I baptised none of you except Cripus and Gaius" (hardly the way he would speak about it if was a absolute requirement of salvation) and also in Corinthians Paul said "For Christ did not send me to baptise but to preach the Gospel"
Jesus death on the cross and his shed blood are the only means and requirement for salvation

 

[Serenity7855]

The earliest manuscripts end Mark at Chapter16 verse 8 Mark is the Gospel presenting Jesus as God's suffering servant on earth starting his ministry with his baptism by John the Baptist and ending his earthly ministry with his death and burial.
Nowhere in the letters is baptism presented as a requirement of salvation. In fact Paul said in 1 Corinthians "I thank God I baptised none of you except Cripus and Gaius" (hardly the way he would speak about it if was a absolute requirement of salvation) and also in Corinthians Paul said "For Christ did not send me to baptise but to preach the Gospel"
Jesus death on the cross and his shed blood are the only means and requirement for salvation

Paul did not have the Authority to baptize.

So Paul's letter did not say it but Jesus Christ did. I will listen to what the Saviour has to say but you choose your own source of information.

John 3

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Mark 16

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

No, Salvation is not dependant on baptism or visa versa. Salvation come to all who believe that Jesus is the Christ and Saviour of mankind. What we are told though is entry into the Kingdom of God is predicated on whether we have confessed that Jesus is the Christ and have entered the waters of Baptism. Or at least that is how I have interpreted the scriptures.

 

[Serenity7855]

Paul did not have the Authority to baptize.

So Paul's letter did not say it but Jesus Christ did. I will listen to what the Saviour has to say but you choose your own source of information.

John 3

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Mark 16

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

No, Salvation is not dependant on baptism or visa versa. Salvation comes to all who believe that Jesus is the Christ and Saviour of mankind. What we are told though is entry into the Kingdom of God is predicated on whether we have confessed that Jesus is the Christ and have entered the waters of Baptism. Or at least that is how I have interpreted the scriptures.

 

[allright]

disciple




John 3

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.


These verses have nothing to do with baptism. It talking about being born again thru the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Being born of the water is refering to your earthly birth, the spirit your second or spiritual birth

What your claiming about baptism is a perversion of the Gospel

 

[Serenity7855]

disciple




John 3

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.


These verses have nothing to do with baptism. It talking about being born again thru the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Being born of the water is refering to your earthly birth, the spirit your second or spiritual birth

What your claiming about baptism is a perversion of the Gospel

And what do you think being born again means. As "Lady B" has very eloquently stated.

"I would like to answer your questions regarding Baptism from my belief and experience. Baptism is an outward symbolic gesture to the Lord. It is symbolizing death of sin, burial and resurrection in Christ.Immersion is the symbolic action of dying to sin, and being lifted out of death and becoming a new clean creature of God."

To have the slate cleared. To have our sins removed through the waters of baptism, to be lowered into the grave as sinners and raised as sinless. TO BE BORN AGAIN.

It is not my claim it is a statement of fact as contained in the Holy Scriptures and therefore sanctioned by God himself. To call it a perversion is to say that God is perverse. I, and no other Christian, would be able to accept your analogy

John 3

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

These verses have nothing to do with baptism

I am quite bewildered by this statement. How can you possible think that these verses have nothing to do with baptism. Who is your deceiver. Ask God, the eternal father, if they are about baptism and if you ask with a broken heart and a contrite spirit he will reveal it to your very soul. Someone is feeding you with guile so please be warned. So being born of water has nothing to do with John the baptist baptizing by complete immersion in WATER and being baptized by the SPIRIT has nothing to do with the dove that descended onto Jesus Christ after he was Baptized of John. Someone has some pretty unusual skills in interpretation.

 

[Windwalker]

Windwalker



Sorry, but no. I have heard of the Pentecostal Church but have not heard of the United Pentecostal Church International. By beliefs are very much based on the LDS Church.



Yes, this is correct, however, not for me because I have been baptized, but for those who think that they have entered the straight and narrow path that leads to life eternal only to find that they have been duped by the Adversary.



On the whole I think that if we do our level best to serve him and his children by keeping his commandments that the saving grace of our Lord and Saviour will bridge the gap. Having said that, I believe that God is omniscient and omnipotent which demands order in all things. Baptism is a point of order, IMHO, as is the Sacrament etc etc… If he says that we will not gain entry into His Kingdom unless we enter the waters of baptism then I take it seriously and would advise all to take it seriously. In that context you are right. I do believe that it is a necessary ordinance that should be conducted as it was when John the Baptist Baptized Jesus Christ



I do not think that it has to be word perfect just that it has to be water and that we are lowered into that water as if being lowered into the grave. At the end of the day God wants us all to succeed but there are laws contained in the scripture to which we must abide in order to facilitate that.



This is very true. My belief is personal to me and just me. Having said that, if we all believe that the Scriptures are the inspired word of God then we must concede that he desires for us to be baptized. I have done that so my concern must turn to those who could lose their salvation by ignoring his words. It would be a travesty to say nothing and realize that I could have save at least one soul. I know the reality of Satan and know what he desires for us. What a master plan it would be to convince millions that Baptism is not required thereby securing their souls in hell.

This is all very tragically legalistic in your thinking. I wish you well finding Peace thinking this way. I remember me in my early 20's and thinking exactly like you are here. It lead to that Spirit within me moving me to leave such narrow, legalistic teachings into the Freedom of Spirit.

The entire affair is kept external to you, and as such this sort of relgious legalistic thinking is a wall you create to keep you from knowing and experiencing God in your heart. "I've performed the ritual, so I know I'm good". That is self-deception.

Rituals are a means to and end within yourself, not the end in themselves.

 

[allright]

And what do you think being born again means. As "Lady B" has very eloquently stated.


To have the slate cleared. To have our sins removed through the waters of baptism, to be lowered into the grave as sinners and raised as sinless. TO BE BORN AGAIN.

It is not my claim it is a statement of fact as contained in the Holy Scriptures and therefore sanctioned by God himself. To call it a perversion is to say that God is perverse. I, and no other Christian, would be able to accept your analogy

John 3

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.



I am quite bewildered by this statement. How can you possible think that these verses have nothing to do with baptism. Who is your deceiver. Ask God, the eternal father, if they are about baptism and if you ask with a broken heart and a contrite spirit he will reveal it to your very soul. Someone is feeding you with guile so please be warned. So being born of water has nothing to do with John the baptist baptizing by complete immersion in WATER and being baptized by the SPIRIT has nothing to do with the dove that descended onto Jesus Christ after he was Baptized of John. Someone has some pretty unusual skills in interpretation.

Jesus explained it 'being born of the water means your physical birth "flesh of flesh"
Being born of the Spirit is accepting Jesus and receiving the Holy Spirit. "second birth"

Sounds like youve joined a cult? Flee for your life :thud:

 

[Serenity7855]

Jesus explained it 'being born of the water means your physical birth "flesh of flesh"
Being born of the Spirit is accepting Jesus and receiving the Holy Spirit. "second birth"

Sounds like youve joined a cult? Flee for your life :thud:

Where did Jesus explain that. Where does it say that being born of the Spirit is accepting Jesus. I only know of our souls being made clean enough, through baptism, to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. I know of nowhere in scripture where it is said that it is accepting Jesus. That is a requirement of Baptism and one should have accepted Him long before entering the baptismal font.

You have simply mis-interpreted it, or the clergy of your church has. Can you honestly say that you read these scriptures, and see a description that is almost identical to the encounter between Christ and John the Baptist, and then interpret it to mean physical birth. You are my first encounter with someone who believes that. It is so very obvious that Satan has a very good tool in the interpretations of of scriptures by men.

I belong to no faith.

The scriptures are made for all who read its pages. It requires no special knowledge or qualifications. Interpretation of its pages are but child's play so as to allow all to read its pages and understand the messages it contains. But beware of false prophets who will deceive even the very elect and lead them down into hell, carefully. If that is where my journeys ends then I only have myself to blame. I have only listened to my own heart, and the Holy Spirit that dwells there, whereas, you are listening to the Doctrines of man who draw near to Him with their mouths but in their hearts they are far from Him.

May our Lord and Saviour recognize that your misconceptions are unintentional and therefore judge you accordingly, and those who deceive you, with kindness and empathy. Satan is very clever and shrewd and will do all in his power to take you off the straight and narrow pathway that leads to life eternal. My concern is that if he has decieved you into believing that Baptism is not a necessity than how many others have fallen foul to this false doctrine excluding them from the family of Christians. Only those who strive to follow the teachings of Christ can call themselves Christians

 

[allright]

Where did Jesus explain that. Where does it say that being born of the Spirit is accepting Jesus. I only know of our souls being made clean enough, through baptism, to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. I know of nowhere in scripture where it is said that it is accepting Jesus. That is a requirement of Baptism and one should have accepted Him long before entering the baptismal font.
This is a waste of time, you are clueless about the Bible and the New Birth

 

[Windwalker]

If you believe baptism makes clean the inside of the cup, you are sadly mistaken.

 

[Serenity7855]

Where did Jesus explain that. Where does it say that being born of the Spirit is accepting Jesus. I only know of our souls being made clean enough, through baptism, to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. I know of nowhere in scripture where it is said that it is accepting Jesus. That is a requirement of Baptism and one should have accepted Him long before entering the baptismal font.
This is a waste of time, you are clueless about the Bible and the New Birth

As expected. Hostility with avoidance of the question. You know that Christ has said no such thing so you insult my intelligence and avoid answering my question. I have been nothing but polite, as Christ would expect. :sleep:

Matthew 7

14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto clife, and few there be that find it.

15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Eventually, true colors always show.:run:

:ctr: Serenity

 

[Serenity7855]

If you believe baptism makes clean the inside of the cup, you are sadly mistaken.

I do think that actually, or at least until we next sin anyway but partaking of the sacrament takes care of that. I know, He has thought of everything in order for us to recieve eternal life with our God. That is why it is called Baptism for the remission of sins. What do you think that baptism achieves, if not to Accept Jesus as the Christ, clean the inner vessel and dedicate our live to serving Him.

:ctr: Serenity.