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Trinity claims that the Jews believed that a Son is equal to his Father

Brian2

Veteran Member
Notice that the last part is a commentary… it is things like this that are easily used to make unsubstantiated claims.

Indeed, it was one of the crux elements of the thread post: ‘Who decided / who wrote that claim that calling ‘God’ his Father meant making Jesus equal to God? Afterall, do even Jews not call God ‘their Father’?

It seems suspicious that such an incredibly out of sync statement should be made given that Jesus told the disciples that when they pray they should address God as ‘Father’… and that they should call no one on earth ‘Father’ (obviously not to do with parentage!) because they have only one Father: God in Heaven!!!

Therefore, are we and they all EQUAL TO GOD since we are to call God our Father???

Trinitarian translators, I believe… did not think anyone would notice the false claim…. Remember that these translations were made at times when few people could read or write…. So hearing such a claim would cause the majority to believe WITHOUT scrutiny….. Still, common sense should prevails!!! …. Ha! But punishment may well be the result: remember that the ‘Holy’ Roman Catholic Church dictate that anyone who did not believe [the lie] would be doomed to hell!!! It in their creed…. Fear… kept true belief under a lid which is today being lifted!!

So you are lifting the lid on the fact that the Bible is lies? That the Jews did not believe what is reported in the Bible or act on that belief as reported in the gospel?
Join the long list of other people who do not believe what the Bible tells us.
 
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Brian2

Veteran Member
The answer to that is simple. A son is not equal to his father in Jewish culture.

Thanks, that answers Soapy's question. But of course that does not mean that a son is not equal in nature to his father.
What you say agrees with Jesus when He asked whose son the Messiah is, and was told "the son of David", so Jesus asked why David, inspired by the Spirit, called the Messiah "my Lord".
But of course I already know that Jews say that it is the one who wrote the Psalm for David that was calling David "my Lord". Does not happen with any other Psalm but there you go.
 

Soapy

Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
Disciples of Jesus are one with each other in Christ and we are the body of Christ and children (adopted) of God because we have Jesus Spirit in us joined to our spirit, but Jesus is not an adopted child and is not a created child.
I do not notice that disciples are one with the Father and Son in those scriptures, it says "so that they may be one in us", not "one with us".
Jesus is not an adopted child (Son)? Tell me what does this mean:
  • ‘You are my son; THIS DAY I HAVE BECOME YOUR FATHER!’
Is that not a declaration of an adopter to the adoptee?

The body of Christ:
  • “But in fact God has placed the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be.” (1 Cor 12:18)
GOD put together the body of Jesus Christ (Church) and arranged the parts (Congregation).

Jesus is not GOD who put his parts together - Jesus praying to God, his Father:
  • “I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word.” (John 17:6)
Yes, Jesus is one in union with his Father - and he desires that the congregation should also be one with each other to work as one unconflicted body.

For those who claim that Jesus saying that he and is gather are one means he (Jesus) IS GOD, what do you them say of the apostles bring one with each other? Are they then ONE PERSON?
 
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Soapy

Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
So you are lifting the lid on the fact that the Bible is lies? That the Jews did not believe what is reported in the Bible or act on that belief as reported in the gospel?
Join the long list of other people who what the Bible tells us.
It is not the Bible that lies but those who misinterpret it purposely for their own ends.

But for those seeking truth the scriptures reveals the corrections as bright as a light shining through the darkness of the deceit of such ‘opposers to truth’.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
[blü 2:] I was looking for an analogy for the heavenly status of the Jesuses of Paul and of John, who indeed pre-existed in heaven with God and it appears are taken to have held the most senior place in the heavenly hierarchy under God.[/blü 2]
It is very wrong to use such an analogy since down the line someone will believe that you meant it exactly such an reality.
Well, for purposes of describing the status of the Jesus of Paul and the Jesus of John in heaven before coming to earth, what word would you choose? (I don't know any word that fits precisely, so I felt free to try an analogy, which I think I made clear was the case.)
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
Thanks, that answers Soapy's question. But of course that does not mean that a son is not equal in nature to his father.
What you say agrees with Jesus when He asked whose son the Messiah is, and was told "the son of David", so Jesus asked why David, inspired by the Spirit, called the Messiah "my Lord".
But of course I already know that Jews say that it is the one who wrote the Psalm for David that was calling David "my Lord". Does not happen with any other Psalm but there you go.
First off, the statement that a son is not "equal" to a father in Judaism is a bit overly simplistic.
In what sense? While a son is not identical, both are bound by the same laws. Both are obligated in the rituals and considered equal in all sorts of settings. The difference is related to their relative positions -- the son must honor the father. The son inherits from the father. So in certain limited legal contexts that are not equal. But in many, they are.

As to the question of David calling a messiah "my lord" - I don't see anywhere where he does this, in no other Psalm, so there you go.
 

David Davidovich

Well-Known Member
Yes, I can definitely comment on the video you provided. First, the video you provided didn’t address any particular points that are sourced in ancient Jewish or Samaritan texts. I.e. he didn’t actually take a known Jewish text and compare the concepts that the Caananites had with ones that are found in ancient Jewish sources. He also didn't explain what the Caananite vowels were based on ancient Caananite descriptions of their language. Another important issue. He didn't deal with the etymology of certain words the way I did in my video.

We recently placed what is, as far as we know, the first electronic digital library for the study of the Ugaritic language and its literature on our pre-Pub page.

Ugaritic, the language of ancient Ugarit (in modern Syria), isn’t something that most people think about when it comes to Bible study. However, the clay tablets discovered and deciphered in the late 1920s and early 1930s provide an unparalleled glimpse into the life and religious worldview of the ancient Israelites. Some (including myself) would argue that they are as important as the Dead Sea Scrolls. Ugaritic is important because of the fact that its vocabulary is so close to biblical Hebrew — many Ugaritic words are letter-for-letter the same as biblical Hebrew. It is the religion of Ugarit, however, that is especially important to Old Testament scholarship.​

click here: What's Ugaritic Got to Do with Anything? (logos.com)

And here is more from the article:

Religious Context. The religion of Ugarit and the religion of ancient Israel were not the same, but there were some striking overlaps. For example, the name of the ultimate divine authority at Ugarit was El, one of the names of the God of Israel (e.g., Gen 33:20). El was described as an aged god with white hair, seated on a throne. However, at Ugarit, El was sovereign, but another god ran things on earth for El as his vizier. That god’s name was Baal, a name quite familiar to anyone who has read the Old Testament. At Ugarit Baal was known by several titles: “king of the gods,” “the Most High,” “Prince Baal” (baal zbl), and—most importantly for our discussion—“the Rider on the Clouds.”

Baal’s position as “king of the gods” in Ugarit, Israel’s northern neighbor, helps explain the “Baal problem” in the Old Testament. Jereboam’s religion in the northern kingdom borrowed from Baal worship, and it soon began to look like there was no difference, or if there was a difference, they were so close that worshipping one or the other was just theological hair-splitting. This is what prophets like Elijah had to contend with. The people had no Bible. They had only the prophets and their words. When a prophet wasn’t around to set the record straight, it was easy to just do what the neighbors were doing—especially if your king didn’t care, or actually preferred it that way.

Given this state of affairs, it's not surprising that sometimes in the course of their preaching and writing, the prophets counted on familiarity with Baal to make their case that it was Yahweh, not Baal, who was the heavenly king. We know this was the case, since certain Old Testament books actually quote from the Ugaritic religious texts, most notably the one that modern scholars have called the Baal Cycle. Whereas the Baal Cycle would give Baal credit for things like sending rain and making the crops grow, the prophets would credit those things to Yahweh. The showdown at Carmel (geographically close to Ugarit) is a case in point. God had withheld rain and Elijah challenged the rain giver to a duel, which God won in glorious fashion (1 Kings 17-18).​

And here's another very important quote from the article:

“The Cloud Rider”

Throughout the Ugaritic texts, Baal is repeatedly called “the one who rides the clouds,” or “the one who mounts the clouds.” The description is recognized as an official title of Baal. No angel or lesser being bore the title. As such, everyone in Israel who heard this title associated it with a deity, not a man or an angel.

Part of the literary strategy of the Israelite prophets was to take this well-known title and attribute it to Yahweh in some way. Consequently, Yahweh, the God of Israel, bears this descriptive title in several places in the Old Testament (Isaiah 19:1; Deuteronomy 33:26; Psalm 68:33; 104:3). For a faithful Israelite, then, there was only one god who “rode” on the clouds: Yahweh.

Until we hit Daniel 7, that is. You know the scene, but you likely don’t know the full context, since Ugaritic provides that for us:​

Ugarit / Baal Cycle

  1. El, the aged high God, is the ultimate sovereign in the council.
  2. El bestows kingship upon the god Baal, the Cloud-Rider, after Baal defeats the god Yamm in battle.
  3. Baal is king of the gods and El's vizier. His rule is everlasting.
Daniel 7

  1. The Ancient of Days, the God of Israel is seated on the fiery, wheeled throne (cf. Ezekiel 1). Like Ugaritic El, he is white haired and aged (“ancient”).
  2. Yahweh-El, the Ancient of Days, bestows kingship upon the Son of Man who rides the clouds after the beast from the sea (yamma) is destroyed.
  3. The Son of Man is given everlasting dominion over the nations. He rules at the right hand of God.
Also, I'm not sure if Ehav4Ever will agree with this next quote from the article since modern Judaism seems to insist that their religion and the Hebrew scriptures only describes one Hashem and only one power in heaven. Plus, this next quote is definitely aligned with the thread topic, even though, I don't know if this is the type of information that Soapy is looking for:

The striking parallels are especially noteworthy given that this is the only time in the Old Testament where a second personage other than Yahweh is described as “coming with/upon the clouds” (the preposition in Aramaic can be translated either way). The intent of the author to describe this “son of man” with a title reserved only for Yahweh was clear by virtue of how the scene followed the Baal literature — the literary cycle whose central character, Baal, held the Cloud-Rider title!

The Jewish audience reading Daniel understood the implications — the prophet Daniel was describing a second power in heaven — a second being at the level of Yahweh to whom Yahweh himself granted authority. Although we naturally think of the idea of a godhead as distinctly Christian, we have evidence here that the seeds of the idea are found in the Hebrew Scriptures. It’s no accident that Jewish theological writing during the Intertestamental period is filled with references to the “second power in heaven” and attempts to figure out how to articulate what was going on in heaven in light of monotheism. Jewish writers speculated that the “second god” was the archangel Michael, or perhaps Gabriel. Some Jewish writers even wrote that Abraham or Moses occupied that position! For Christians the answer was obvious.​

Also, Ehav4Ever might cry foul since Jews don't seem to tolerate any point of view that's related to Christianity as the information in this article is, however, the information that this article brings out are facts about the Ugaritic texts and their similarity and influence on the Hebrew Bible.

(Also, the emphasis in the quotes are mine for the purpose of highlighting certain points.)
 

David Davidovich

Well-Known Member
David Davidovich said:
Plus, like many Jews do, your video seemed to exclude Hellenistic influence on ancient Judaism in addition to influence from Jewish apocrypha such as the book of Enoch.

Of course a Torath Mosheh answer would exclude "Hellenistic" concepts because Torath Mosheh is not Hellenisism and Torath Mosheh Jews have a long history of fighting against Hellenist. If someone wants a Hellenist Jewish perspective then they will need to ask a Hellenist Jew what they hold by - if you can find one. For example, enoch was never accepted in Torath Mosheh communities - thus it was not found in ancient Yemenite, Iraqi, Syrian, Maghrebi, Kaifeng, Afgastani, Ashkenaz, etc. Jewish communities.

But the OP asked stated:

I cannot understand that [il]logic and also can find nothing in Jewish tradition that makes any such claim of a Son being equal to his Father.​

And he also stated:

Can anyone give any enlightenment on where there is evidence of a Jewish tradition of a son being equal to his Father … and how Jesus, who was not a ‘birthed’ son of God could be part of this tradition​

However, modern Judaism seems to not recognize ancient Jewish culture and tradition that was once part of the Jewish community at one time:

All the Apocrypha and most of the Pseudepigrapha are Jewish works (some contain Christianizing additions). They provide essential evidence of Jewish literature and thought during the period between the end of biblical writing (ca. 400 BCE) and the beginning of substantial rabbinic literature in the latter part of the first century CE. They have aroused much scholarly interest, since they provide information about Judaism at the turn of the era between the Bible and the Mishna (Biblical Law and Oral Law), and help explain how Rabbinic Judaism and Christianity came into being.​

click here: The Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha (jewishvirtuallibrary.org)

(emphasis mine)

Therefore, the type of information that you are giving representing modern Judaism is depriving Soapy of all of the past thinking and traditions of Judaism, even though, they might not be "kosher" today.
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
Thanks, that answers Soapy's question. But of course that does not mean that a son is not equal in nature to his father.

What you have stated is not a "Jewish" concept. It is a concept "foreign" to Torath Mosheh and Orthodox Jews. There is no such thing as being equal in "nature" or any other matter to one's father, in Jewish concept, culture, and practice. This is historically evident in how we Jews address our parents. Even genetically speaking a child is not equal to their father since half of it comes from him and the other half from the mother. This is how Jews historically address a question.

What you say agrees with Jesus when He asked whose son the Messiah is, and was told "the son of David", so Jesus asked why David, inspired by the Spirit, called the Messiah "my Lord".

What you are describing is a Christian concept so I will have to leave that for Christians to discuss in Christian circles.

But of course I already know that Jews say that it is the one who wrote the Psalm for David that was calling David "my Lord". Does not happen with any other Psalm but there you go.

What we Jews would say is Dawith ben-Yishai wrote in Hebrew. What he wrote is clear to us since we read it in the Hebrew he wrote in and not in translation. See below.

upload_2022-4-25_8-18-16.png


So, in reality the Christian concept comes from the various Greek, Latin, English, etc. texts that Christians read from. Again, it is not for us Jews to criticize Christians for their chosen method of exegesis. i.e. Christians can beleive whatever they want about their meanings of their texts.
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
Also, Ehav4Ever might cry foul since Jews don't seem to tolerate any point of view that's related to Christianity as the information in this article is, however, the information that this article brings out are facts about the Ugaritic texts and their similarity and influence on the Hebrew Bible.

No crying here. Christians are free to believe whatever they want on any given topic. We don't have issue with tolerance. We simply come from a different historical background, linquistic history, and culture from Christians just like we did from the ancient Canaanites. Of course given the fact that the various Israeli/Jewish languages and dielects not being native to Christians, and not being known or spoken by the vast majority of Christians, of course they would accept their own internal sources for what they beleive.

You have given me an idea for a video that discusses the various ancient Jewish dialects and their relation to the various Canaanite dialects. I hope to have it done in a week or two. Thanks for the idea.
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
But the OP asked stated:

I cannot understand that [il]logic and also can find nothing in Jewish tradition that makes any such claim of a Son being equal to his Father.​

And he also stated:

Can anyone give any enlightenment on where there is evidence of a Jewish tradition of a son being equal to his Father … and how Jesus, who was not a ‘birthed’ son of God could be part of this tradition​
And the author of the OP got an answer from someone who is Jewish, speaks/understands/reads Jewish languages/dieletics, and lives within ancient and modern Jewish culture. Before I responded, he received "responses" from those who are not Jewish, don't speak/understand/read Jewish languages/dielects, and don't live within ancient and modern Jewish culture. So, it sounds to me like the writer of the OP has received a well rounded number of responses to form his own opinion around.

However, modern Judaism seems to not recognize ancient Jewish culture and tradition that was once part of the Jewish community at one time:
Therefore, the type of information that you are giving representing modern Judaism is depriving Soapy of all of the past thinking and traditions of Judaism, even though, they might not be "kosher" today.

Given, that the answer the writer of the OP received from me comes from Torath Mosheh sources that are more than 2,000 years old the response he received was not modern.

He now has the ability to look through the various non-Jewish opinions to his question found in this thread and now he has an ancient and modern Torath Mosheh one as well. Further, all one has to do is look at the fact that ancient Jewish communities who outside of Israel during the 2nd Temple period to know that it is not some ancient Jewish text that ever had any value or acceptance to Torath Mosheh Israelis/Jews. Only, groups like the Essenes, who may have been the source of early Christianity, accepted such texts on some level.

For anyone who wants to understand what Torath Mosheh and how ancient it is, see the following videos of the community I come from.


 
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1213

Well-Known Member
Okay. So you dont believe Jesus is God. Thanks. You could have just said that.

To be more accurate, I would say he is not the one and only true God that is greater than him, according to his own words. But, there has been many that are called gods and by that standard Jesus could be called god. For example Moses was also called god.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
To be more accurate, I would say he is not the one and only true God that is greater than him, according to his own words. But, there has been many that are called gods and by that standard Jesus could be called god. For example Moses was also called god.

Yes. Moses was called god. Well hell, even pots and pans were called god. That is a linguistic matter.

I am asking you about god the creator, the sustainer, the one who exists. The eternal, necessary being. Not just a linguistic matter.

But I think you gave me the answer. Thanks.
 

Soapy

Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
Yes. Moses was called god. Well hell, even pots and pans were called god. That is a linguistic matter.

I am asking you about god the creator, the sustainer, the one who exists. The eternal, necessary being. Not just a linguistic matter.

But I think you gave me the answer. Thanks.
At last there is someone who understands that the term, ‘God’ is a title… not a person.

Yhwh, is OUR GOD!

His NAME is YHWH

His TITLE is GOD

It means that He, YHWH, is OUR almighty one!

Scriptures rightly tells us that all manner of things can be our GOD if we put it at the forepoint of our thoughts and allow it to lead us; dictate to us; consume us above all other things; reverence it.

Pagans thought that sticks and stones gave them their orders; they believed it needed feeding; prayed to… all the time there were deceptive men behind it.

YHWH, is not Jesus… and Jesus is not YHWH.

Yhwh does not need to punish people now for misusing his name and so many do… forgetting that ultimately they will pay! Yes, laugh in their deception now - but pay with their spirit at the end!
 

David Davidovich

Well-Known Member
No crying here. Christians are free to believe whatever they want on any given topic. We don't have issue with tolerance. We simply come from a different historical background, linquistic history, and culture from Christians just like we did from the ancient Canaanites. Of course given the fact that the various Israeli/Jewish languages and dielects not being native to Christians, and not being known or spoken by the vast majority of Christians, of course they would accept their own internal sources for what they beleive.

But how about you? Do you think that the information that I quoted from the logos.com article is valid?

click here: What's Ugaritic Got to Do with Anything? (logos.com)
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
But how about you? Do you think that the information that I quoted from the logos.com article is valid?

There are several problems with the article that don't come out in the English translation that the author used. I discussed some of them in the videos I provided. If the author were to write his article using the actual texts, rather than translations, and simple breakdown the original it would be clear.

I suggest that you write to the author and ask the following questions.
  1. Several ancient Semetic languages work off of three letter roots, in Hebrew called (שורשים), what is the meaning of the following (שורשים) in Proto-Canaanite, Sumerian, and ancient Hebrew? (א-י-ל), (א-ו-ל) and (א-ל-ה)
  2. What is the earliest source, description, of how the language of the Jewish (תנ"ך) worked and the meanings of its words?
  3. What is the earliest source, description, of how the language of the Samaritan (תורה) worked and the meanings of its words?
  4. What characteristics make a text a Torah based Israeli/Jewish text?
  5. In the writing of Nechamya there is a description of two langauges one being native to the people of Yehudah called (יהודית) and the other being foreign called (אשדודית) - what are the differences between the two?
  6. What native Canaanite text describes the vowel system, i.e. correct pronunciation of words among the Canaanites?
  7. How do ancient Jewish texts discuss the process they call (נבואה)?
  8. What ancient Torath Mosheh Jewish sources, prior to about 1,700 years declare that (יהוה) is pronounced yahweh? Why do some Karaite Jews give a difference pronuciation?
I will be covering these topics in the video I am working on.
 

David Davidovich

Well-Known Member
There are several problems with the article that don't come out in the English translation that the author used. I discussed some of them in the videos I provided. If the author were to write his article using the actual texts, rather than translations, and simple breakdown the original it would be clear.

Could you simply write down those points? Because it is not always easy for people to watch and listen to videos. Especially is they are long and have a lot of foreign language in them or strong accents.
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
Could you simply write down those points? Because it is not always easy for people to watch and listen to videos. Especially is they are long and have a lot of foreign language in them or strong accents.

No. The reason is that discussing language, how they work, how they don't work, and cultures around said languages is not something that one writes down for someone without being comprehensive. This is especially true when it comes to ancient and modern Jewish language and text. It is for this reason that historically Torath Mosheh Jews and Orthodox Jews invest years of energy and resources in training Jewish children in being fluent in Ancient Hebrew, Aramaic, and other Jewish dialects.

This is the reason that when people actually study language often have to spend large amounts of time looking at texts, learning scripts, and breaking down cultural norms - and they spend years doing so. This is especially true when said language is thousands of years old and foreign to those who don't live the culture and interact with it. Further, there are some articles, books, etc. that don't even break down what the text they are explaining actually says, in its cultural context, and where it says it in the text and what natives of the language and culture actually state.

If a video where all of that is broken down visually and explained at a basic level is difficult for some then it is possible that the topic is not one that they can grasp correctly. This is another cultural difference. A Torath Mosheh or Orthodox Jew would request me to show them detail, in the languages in question, what I am stating rather than have me write out in English that can be debated simply on the fact that the English doesn't refelct the actual text in question.

Lastly, if a person has the ability to spend several days, weeks, months, etc. going back and forth on RF about topics I don't see how a 10 minutes to 1 hour is a heavy investment.
 
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