Trinity - Fact or Fiction?

[Katzpur]

For Mormons- the discussion gets hard. Becuase of their beleif that God was once as we are (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith p.345), and that he became God. And also the teaching that Jesus is the spiritual brother to lucifer...all of LDS (Mormonism) doctrine affect the perception they have of the trinity, among many other things. Just as in all other faiths like Islam, and Baha'i, and Lucferianism, and Jehovah's witness. Many teachings they have and hold -- we can try to proove wrong using the BIble, but what use is it if they dont even hold the bible as a profitable for doctrine?

Sorry, Jay, but you obviously think you know more about Mormonism than you actually do. As far as not holding the Bible as profitable for doctrine, that's about as false a statement as I've ever heard made about out beliefs. I'm not saying you are intentionally misrepresenting my religion, but you are misrepresenting it nevertheless. If you would care to actually understand how we view the Holy Bible, here is a link to a General Conference address I can highly recommend: The Miracle of the Holy Bible.

The address, by LDS Apostle, M. Russell Ballard, begins by saying:

"My brothers and sisters, the Holy Bible is a miracle! It is a miracle that the Bible's 4,000 years of sacred and secular history were recorded and preserved by the prophets, apostles, and inspired churchmen.

It is a miracle that we have the Bible's powerful doctrine, principles, poetry, and stories. But most of all, it is a wonderful miracle that we have the account of the life, ministry, and words of Jesus, which was protected through the Dark Ages and through the conflicts of countless generations so that we may have it today.

It is a miracle that the Bible literally contains within its pages the converting, healing Spirit of Christ, which has turned men's hearts for centuries, leading them to pray, to choose right paths, and to search to find their Savior.

The Holy Bible is well named. It is holy because it teaches truth, holy because it warms us with its spirit, holy because it teaches us to know God and understand His dealings with men, and holy because it testifies throughout its pages of the Lord Jesus Christ."

 

[JayHawes]

Sorry, Jay, but you obviously think you know more about Mormonism than you actually do. As far as not holding the Bible as profitable for doctrine, that's about as false a statement as I've ever heard made about out beliefs. I'm not saying you are intentionally misrepresenting my religion, but you are misrepresenting it nevertheless. If you would care to actually understand how we view the Holy Bible, here is a link to a General Conference address I can highly recommend: The Miracle of the Holy Bible.

The address, by LDS Apostle, M. Russell Ballard, begins by saying:

"My brothers and sisters, the Holy Bible is a miracle! It is a miracle that the Bible's 4,000 years of sacred and secular history were recorded and preserved by the prophets, apostles, and inspired churchmen.

It is a miracle that we have the Bible's powerful doctrine, principles, poetry, and stories. But most of all, it is a wonderful miracle that we have the account of the life, ministry, and words of Jesus, which was protected through the Dark Ages and through the conflicts of countless generations so that we may have it today.

It is a miracle that the Bible literally contains within its pages the converting, healing Spirit of Christ, which has turned men's hearts for centuries, leading them to pray, to choose right paths, and to search to find their Savior.

The Holy Bible is well named. It is holy because it teaches truth, holy because it warms us with its spirit, holy because it teaches us to know God and understand His dealings with men, and holy because it testifies throughout its pages of the Lord Jesus Christ."

I never said Mormons don't hold the BIble as profitable for doctrine, but what they do hold highly is the Book of the Latter-Day Saints, another Testament to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. My point was thus, doctrines that the Mormon bible holds true are can be rejected by the bible. Such as God once being Man...(the bible says God is not a man- Numbers 23:19, and that he was always God Psalms90:2. However, we just may interpret diffrent....

 

[JayHawes]

I apologize if by my wording i inferred that Mormons do not accept the Bible, i did not mean that. What i meant was that Mormons hold another book sacred along with the Bible, and that extra book adds to doctrines and beliefs. Those beleifs then cause mormons to read the bible differently. Just as many Christians sects and denominations disagree because of extra-biblical influence... I understand that the Baha'i do accept the bible to an extent, but they do not accept the bible in its entirety. Why do i say this? Becuase Jesus said that he was the only way to the Father, the Baha'i must either interpret this diffrent, retranslate it, or totally ignore it...(that was just an example) As for the trinity not being in the bible, we all ignore what we dont want to pay attention to. Not to say that you do....

Ge 18:1 -Yahweh appeared to him (Abraham) by the oaks of Mamre, as he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day.

Ge 18:2 -He lifted up his eyes and looked, and saw that three men stood opposite him.


All of us may interpret this diffrently. But if we dont omit the whole chapter, or make excuses we can understand something real well.
P.S.- we can understand it well if we dont try to retranslate it every time we dont agree with it.

 

[Katzpur]

I never said Mormons don't hold the BIble as profitable for doctrine, but what they do hold highly is the Book of the Latter-Day Saints, another Testament to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. My point was thus, doctrines that the Mormon bible holds true are can be rejected by the bible. Such as God once being Man...(the bible says God is not a man- Numbers 23:19, and that he was always God Psalms90:2. However, we just may interpret diffrent....

Not to be picky, but I do feel the need to clarify a few points...

1. I'm sorry if I misunderstood you, but it really did appear that you were saying we don't hold the Bible as profitable for doctrine. If I read you wrong, I apologize.

2. There is no such thing as "The Book of the Latter-day Saints." We do believe "The Book of Mormon" to be scripture, however. I suspect that is the book you were referring to.

3. The "Mormon Bible" is actually the same "King James Version" used by many Christian denominations. We hold it in the highest regard.

4. The idea that God was once a man is actually not official LDS doctrine, although it is commonly accepted as a biblically valid teaching by many Latter-day Saints. Properly understood, the teaching in no way contradicts anything the Bible has to say about God. Incorrectly understood, it probably would.

5. I think you're right when you say that we may just be interpreting certain scriptures differently. If we were to take the time to really understand each other's point of view, we would probably find more to agree on than to disagree on. For example, what you said about God being a title given to both God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ (in my thread, "Is Jesus God the Father?") was excellent. I have made the same point before in discussions with Christians of many different denominations.

 

[JayHawes]

Not to be picky, but I do feel the need to clarify a few points...

1. I'm sorry if I misunderstood you, but it really did appear that you were saying we don't hold the Bible as profitable for doctrine. If I read you wrong, I apologize.

2. There is no such thing as "The Book of the Latter-day Saints." We do believe "The Book of Mormon" to be scripture, however. I suspect that is the book you were referring to.

3. The "Mormon Bible" is actually the same "King James Version" used by many Christian denominations. We hold it in the highest regard.

4. The idea that God was once a man is actually not official LDS doctrine, although it is commonly accepted as a biblically valid teaching by many Latter-day Saints. Properly understood, the teaching in no way contradicts anything the Bible has to say about God. Incorrectly understood, it probably would.

5. I think you're right when you say that we may just be interpreting certain scriptures differently. If we were to take the time to really understand each other's point of view, we would probably find more to agree on than to disagree on. For example, what you said about God being a title given to both God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ (in my thread, "Is Jesus God the Father?") was excellent. I have made the same point before in discussions with Christians of many different denominations.

Yes i did mean the Book or Mormon. However i disagree when you say it is the same as the King James Version. Many times I've been to hotels, and in each room is a copy of the Bible and the Book of Mormon. If I understand, witnesses back up Joseph Smith to the fact that he did have golden plates from which he translated the Book of Mormon, such as Oliver Cowdery. However, I did not find one book from the King James Version, not from the Old Testament or the New. Although i did find some similar scripture. What i did find were writings that Joseph claims are from the before B.C. Which i find strange is that the plates were located near his home...and he lived in New York...I guess this is where the lost tribes of Israel must have been located....

WE must be Careful not to allow outside sources to govern what we interpret the bible to mean or Be:
Ga 1:8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

 

[Katzpur]

Yes i did mean the Book or Mormon. However i disagree when you say it is the same as the King James Version. Many times I've been to hotels, and in each room is a copy of the Bible and the Book of Mormon.

You misunderstood me. We believe in both the Holy Bible (we use the KJV) and the Book of Mormon. I was simply pointing out that the Bible we use is the same Bible many other Christians use. The Book of Mormon is not "the Mormon Bible."

If i understand wittness back up Joseph Smith tot he fact that he did have golden plates from which he translated the Book of Mormon, such as Oliver Cowdery. I did not find one book from the King James Version however, not from the Old Testament or the New. Although i did find some similar scripture. What i did find were writings that Joseph claims are from the before B.C. Which i find strange is that the plates were located near his home...and he lived in New York...I guess this is where the lost tribes of Israel must have been located....

We've already gone far enough off topic, Jay. I'd be happy to discuss these issues with you, if you'd like... just not in this particular thread.

 

[kmkemp]

Ge 18:1 -Yahweh appeared to him (Abraham) by the oaks of Mamre, as he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day.

Ge 18:2 -He lifted up his eyes and looked, and saw that three men stood opposite him.

I've never considered this as a Trinity text. In 19:1 it is said that two of the men were angels. However, in Genesis 19:24, Jesus seems to make an appearance...

"Then the LORD rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah, from the LORD out of the heavens."

At worst, 19:24 seems to indicate a bi-unity or whatever that would be.

 

[JayHawes]

I've never considered this as a Trinity text. In 19:1 it is said that two of the men were angels. However, in Genesis 19:24, Jesus seems to make an appearance...

"Then the LORD rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah, from the LORD out of the heavens."

At worst, 19:24 seems to indicate a bi-unity or whatever that would be.

You are combining two totally different events. In Genesis 19, the bible clearly says two angels appeared and went into Sodom. In Genesis 18, the bible says the LORD appeard and Araham saw three men, the whole of chapter 18 does not mention angels, and has nothing to do with 19, except to the fact that Arbaham was asking God (the three men) to spare some people. So to judge whom to spare God sent two angels to Lot, and of his family some survived.

 

[Katzpur]

When St. Patrick witnessed to the Irish, he used the three leaf shamrock to illustrate the Trinity...

ONE GOD who is three persons: Father, Son & Holy Spirit

Look at the single shamrock...

ONE Shamrock,with three separate leaves. It's still ONE Shamrock but it extends in three SEPARATE directions. You could remove a leaf but it's still a part of that singular Shamrock... one leaf is only part of the WHOLE...as FATHER, Son and Spirit are separate portions of the whole of GOD.

ONE God who is Father, Spirit and Son - Trinity

I often use analogies myself, but someone inevitably picks them apart. I hate that; analogies are useful, but no analogy is perfect. Some, however, are better than others. Please forgive me, Dawny, but I see a major flaw in this particular one. Unless I have grossly misunderstood what trinitarians have been telling me all these years, I am of the impression that each of the persons of the Trinity is fully God, in other words, that the Father is God, in and of Himself, that the Son is God, in and of Himself, and that the Holy Ghost is God, in and of Himself, and yet in spite of this fact, they (plural pronoun) are "one God." Is a single leaf of a shamrock in any way, shape or form an entire shamrock, in and of itself? If it were, perhaps I could see the rationale behind this analogy. As it is, I'm afraid it just doesn't cut it for me.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Whether He purposefully created evil or not is really a non issue for me. He abhores evil. There's not much to discuss.

"Purposefully created evil or not."

It would certainly be on purpose.....Correct???

"or not" says that he created it on an accident.....Now that wouldn't make any sense.

It wasn't me that opened the door on this one. It was your statement of "Evil is not of God." and "...."evil is the exact oppisite of God." I was just simply pointing out that it was because he says it was. It was just to illustrate that you assumed that's all. Now that you know he did we can move forward with the original question laid out in this debate.

Whether God went out of His way to create evil or not...it's a non issue to me.

Well, it certainly was a non issue for me and for the purpose of this current debate but you brought it up. I simply disagreed with you and showed why. I'm quite sure we can move on to something else.

 

[dolphinboy]

I often use analogies myself, but someone inevitably picks them apart. I hate that; analogies are useful, but no analogy is perfect. Some, however, are better than others. Please forgive me, Dawny, but I see a major flaw in this particular one. Unless I have grossly misunderstood what trinitarians have been telling me all these years, I am of the impression that each of the persons of the Trinity is fully God, in other words, that the Father is God, in and of Himself, that the Son is God, in and of Himself, and that the Holy Ghost is God, in and of Himself, and yet in spite of this fact, they (plural pronoun) are "one God." Is a single leaf of a shamrock in any way, shape or form an entire shamrock, in and of itself? If it were, perhaps I could see the rationale behind this analogy. As it is, I'm afraid it just doesn't cut it for me.

another analogy used alot is water, steam and ice. All are water just in different forms, but i think most analogies are picked apart. It is difficult to explain something like the trinity and yet we still try to compare it with phisical things or people which only help complicate the whole mystery

db

 

[Truth_Faith13]

another analogy used alot is water, steam and ice. All are water just in different forms, but i think most analogies are picked apart. It is difficult to explain something like the trinity and yet we still try to compare it with phisical things or people which only help complicate the whole mystery

db

As you say all analogies can be changed around to fit any belief. I could say yes water can exist as three different forms. But you cannot have the same bit of water existing as the different forms at the same time.

 

[TashaN]

What we need to understand is that this discussion goes deeper than just the trinity. But each person's faith has reasons to why they do or do not accept the Trinity. For Muslims Jesus was just a man, not even the son of GOd
For Christians Jesus was the son of God, and the Messiah
For some early Jews, Jesus was a great Prophet, and maybe the Messiah

I would like to do some correction in here. Muslims see Jesus Christ as the Messiah and a great prophet. The different between Jews, Christians and Muslims in this issue is that the we believe the Jews didn't think he is the real Messiah and rejected him as you all know, while on the other hand, the Christians believed of him in something higher than what he decleared himself to be. That's why we believe he was a great prophet of God, and that he is the real Messiah. Also, he was healing and creating the bird as well by the permission of God, and that he was ascended to the sky and will retuen at the end of this life to kill the anti-Christ.

There an entire Surah called Al-Imran--it's about the blessed family of Mary and it was called Al-Imran--and its chapter 3 in the Quran, and another entire Chapter in the Quran called Mary "Maryam in arabic" and its chapter 19.

[45] Behold! the angels said: "O Maryam! Allah giveth Thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Al-Masih 'Isa. The son of Maryam, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah;


[46] "He shall speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. And he shall be (of the company) of the righteous."


[47] She said: "O my Lord! how shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?" He said: "Even so: Allah createth what He willeth: when He hath decreed a Plan, He but saith to it, `Be', and it is! (Quran 3:45-47)

To read more about the Messiah in the Quran, you can check Surah 4, the verses (157, 171, 172), and Surah 5, the verses (17, 72, 75).

I agree with what you are saying regarding different beliefs having different doctrines. However as far as I am aware. The only beliefs that dont hold the bible trully profitable for doctrine is muslims and luciferians or are they the ones you were referring to. As many can use the bible to reject the trinity also. Its not because I dont accept the bible I dont accept the trinity - I do accept the bible, I dont believe the bible teaches the trinity. I coudl have just misread your post however, but it seemed like you were saying LDS, jews, JWs and baha'i dont accept the bible, when they do.

The Muslims accept the word of God and the word of the Messiah in the bible but not the writing and letters of the later authors whom their words make the majority of the bible. Note that even there are so many unknown authors for the bible, that's why we don't believe in the bible as a whole. Nevertheless, it's an essential part on our belief system to believe in the pervious prophets of God and their holy books.


Peace and blessing,

TT

 

[Angel A]

So what you are saying is that any christian without a total understanding of the trinity doctrine isn't really a christian? If that's it then there are a whole lot of non-christians walking around, who oddly have faith in what they barely understand. I said I didn't understand it when I was a christian, not that I didn't believe it. The belief did fade however, when I failed to logically grasp it as I got older.

There are millions of "So Called" Christians that have no idea what it means to be a christian. If you are lucky 1 in a thousand "christians" open a bible regularly much less know anything about what it means to be christian.

The Trinity is a complex way to express the Greatness of God.
I myself actually don't like to explain that theory because in truth many people can't, including myself. I know the retoric and I know the explanation of the church, none of those explanations truly help to remove the hocus pocus.

How I understand it is:
God made a Physical body, took a part of himself, put it on earth to serve us as a model being and as a redeemer. As he left the earth he gave us the Holy Spirit to live among us and in us as a comforter, healer, teacher. That is how I understand the Idea of the personalities revealed to us. I still believe there is no God but God.

When I posted the Quotes of "Let Us make man" was to show the revalation that God All Mighty used others in his work. Even though he works however he will he still uses Angels and Man to get things accoplished in a way we can understand it. To you it is a grammer or what have you , to me it is how I believe the Holy Spirit has revealed it to me.

aa

 

[Truth_Faith13]

I would like to do some correction in here. Muslims see Jesus Christ as the Messiah and a great prophet. The different between Jews, Christians and Muslims in this issue is that the we believe the Jews didn't think he is the real Messiah and rejected him as you all know, while on the other hand, the Christians believed of him in something higher than what he decleared himself to be. That's why we believe he was a great prophet of God, and that he is the real Messiah. Also, he was healing and creating the bird as well by the permission of God, and that he was ascended to the sky and will retuen at the end of this life to kill the anti-Christ.

There an entire Surah called Al-Imran--it's about the blessed family of Mary and it was called Al-Imran--and its chapter 3 in the Quran, and another entire Chapter in the Quran called Mary "Maryam in arabic" and its chapter 19.

[45] Behold! the angels said: "O Maryam! Allah giveth Thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Al-Masih 'Isa. The son of Maryam, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah;


[46] "He shall speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. And he shall be (of the company) of the righteous."


[47] She said: "O my Lord! how shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?" He said: "Even so: Allah createth what He willeth: when He hath decreed a Plan, He but saith to it, `Be', and it is! (Quran 3:45-47)

To read more about the Messiah in the Quran, you can check Surah 4, the verses (157, 171, 172), and Surah 5, the verses (17, 72, 75).




The Muslims accept the word of God and the word of the Messiah in the bible but not the writing and letters of the later authors whom their words make the majority of the bible. Note that even there are so many unknown authors for the bible, that's why we don't believe in the bible as a whole. Nevertheless, it's an essential part on our belief system to believe in the pervious prophets of God and their holy books.


Peace and blessing,

TT

Yeah I do know that - I think I must have had a lapse there when I wrote that! sorry!

 

[TashaN]

There are millions of "So Called" Christians that have no idea what it means to be a christian. If you are lucky 1 in a thousand "christians" open a bible regularly much less know anything about what it means to be christian.

It's normal. All of those who preach christianity will tell you that once you have faith in Christ and his love, you will be saved then full stop. The preachers went the easy way to get more followers of Christ without knowing what they supposed to believe in as a real solid doctrine, and at the end what you have got is just the "So Called" Christians as you named them. What You Preach Is What You Get! simply put.

At the end, i don't think those who put their trust on their savior who don't require from them any work or certain belief to adhere to "according to the preachers" will be pleased with you saying that they are not real Christians, and i know that alot of Christians will jump over you in here telling you that you don't have the right to say who is a real Christian and who isn't.

 

[TashaN]

Yeah I do know that - I think I must have had a lapse there when I wrote that! sorry!

That's ok.


[9] Therefore give admonition in case the admonition profits (the hearer). (Quran 87:9)

 

[Angel A]

At the end, i don't think those who put their trust on their savior who don't require from them any work or certain belief to adhere to "according to the preachers" will be pleased with you saying that they are not real Christians, and i know that alot of Christians will jump over you in here telling you that you don't have the right to say who is a real Christian and who isn't.[/quote]

"James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
2:26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."

To humble yourself and to spread the word, to feed the poor and love your neighbor.
To worship God the Father as the supreme being.
Most "so called"christians will not humble themselves to learn what is the real work of being a christian.
For instance I played a gospel CD to see if my freind wanted to buy it. He said "why buy it when I can download it? "
Thou shall not STEAL---simple rule-- but how many of us have paid for stolen or ill gotten items from others? Some people will say that to believe in Christ is all that is needed and you will be saved. I say that is false doctrine. Even Satan believes in the God. It is our works that PROVE a christians faith is real.
So you can believe in the mystery of the Catholic teachings or the JW's view but "faith without works is dead." That tells me to humble myself and to serve others.....this is more important than explaining the Trinity doctrine.

aa

 

[fullyveiled muslimah]

"James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
2:26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."

Agreed. Faith without any works whatsoever is dead. I have long not understood the rationale behind not doing good works, for Jesus himself did good works. Fasting is a good work which he did, healing people, giving the messege of God, feeding the hungry, all of that is a good deed. So if Jesus can do it so can everybody else.

 

[JayHawes]

I would like to do some correction in here. Muslims see Jesus Christ as the Messiah and a great prophet. The different between Jews, Christians and Muslims in this issue is that the we believe the Jews didn't think he is the real Messiah and rejected him as you all know, while on the other hand, the Christians believed of him in something higher than what he decleared himself to be. That's why we believe he was a great prophet of God, and that he is the real Messiah. Also, he was healing and creating the bird as well by the permission of God, and that he was ascended to the sky and will retuen at the end of this life to kill the anti-Christ.

There an entire Surah called Al-Imran--it's about the blessed family of Mary and it was called Al-Imran--and its chapter 3 in the Quran, and another entire Chapter in the Quran called Mary "Maryam in arabic" and its chapter 19.

[45] Behold! the angels said: "O Maryam! Allah giveth Thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Al-Masih 'Isa. The son of Maryam, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah;


[46] "He shall speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. And he shall be (of the company) of the righteous."


[47] She said: "O my Lord! how shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?" He said: "Even so: Allah createth what He willeth: when He hath decreed a Plan, He but saith to it, `Be', and it is! (Quran 3:45-47)

To read more about the Messiah in the Quran, you can check Surah 4, the verses (157, 171, 172), and Surah 5, the verses (17, 72, 75).




The Muslims accept the word of God and the word of the Messiah in the bible but not the writing and letters of the later authors whom their words make the majority of the bible. Note that even there are so many unknown authors for the bible, that's why we don't believe in the bible as a whole. Nevertheless, it's an essential part on our belief system to believe in the pervious prophets of God and their holy books.


Peace and blessing,

TT

You're the first Muslim i've heard to say you beleive Jesus was the Messiah, may others laughed at me when i said such. Usually you'all just say he was a great prophet and deny that he was the messiah...or rather that he died on the cross.. Jews were the first Christians, all of the Apostles were Jews , a majority of the followers of the Way of Jesus were Jews before the Apostle Paul came along and preached unto the Gentiles. Do Christians really make him any higher than he really is? He is the Messiah, meaning that he was and is the way to salvation, as prophesied, of course Moslems will deny this since many dont believe Christ died on the Cross...Jesus is the Son of God, something eles which i think you refer to that we Christians give unto Jesus, why though? Becuase his Apostles knew him as such:

Mt 16:16And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ ( the messiah), the Son of the living God.

These are the words of the Apostle Peter as he responded to the Question Christ preposed, "Whom do you say that I am?"

Jesus said:"Blessed art thou, for God the father in Heaven, has revealed this unto you." (17)


I realise Moslems believe to a degree about Jesus and what he came to do, but they deny major portions of his life and the Gospels...