Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
This doesn't address my post, though. You're worshiping the bridge as if it were the destination.
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Trinity: True or False?
- Thread starter Moby
- Start date
This doesn't address my post, though. You're worshiping the bridge as if it were the destination.
stvdv
Veteran Member
Our Father has already started teaching me. When finished, only then I can declare "I know all"
Redemptionsong
Well-Known Member
Actually, there is nothing to indicate from these scriptures that Jesus was walking by God's Holy Spirit from birth. He may have been walking righteously under the law.
Matthew 1:20-21 refers to the overshadowing of the Holy Spirit to bring about the conception in Mary. It does not say that Jesus walked by God's Holy Spirit before he was anointed about the age of thirty. Do you have any other scriptures to indicate that he may have walked in the power of God's Holy Spirit before thirty?
It says in Acts 10:36-38. 'The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all)
That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;
How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.'
From this, I understand that the Holy Spirit was first given to Jesus at his baptism. It was necessary that Jesus live first under the law, and then under grace. Why? Because he was a mediator between the Old and New covenants [Hebrews 9:15].
The destination hoped for is heaven and Jesus is the only door in:
John 10:7-9 Jesus therefore said unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. (8) All that came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them. (9) I am the door; by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and go out, and shall find pasture.
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, and the truth, and the life: no one cometh unto the Father, but by me.
I would not go so far as to declare Jesus was not led of the Spirit as the Father's Spirit is everywhere from the depths of hell to the heights of Heaven and His hand continually led David from his youth:
Psalms 139:7-10 Whither shall I go from thy Spirit? Or whither shall I flee from thy presence? (8) If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, thou art there. (9) If I take the wings of the morning, And dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; (10) Even there shall thy hand lead me, And thy right hand shall hold me.
Jesus demonstrated incredible wisdom from His Father at the age of 12:
Luke 2:42-47 And when he was twelve years old, they went up after the custom of the feast; (43) and when they had fulfilled the days, as they were returning, the boy Jesus tarried behind in Jerusalem: and his parents knew it not; (44) but supposing him to be in the company, they went a day's journey; and they sought for him among their kinsfolk and acquaintance: (45) and when they found him not, they returned to Jerusalem, seeking for him. (46) And it came to pass, after three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the teachers, both hearing them, and asking them questions: (47) and all that heard him were amazed at his understanding and his answers.
John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Spirit from the womb:
Luke 1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and he shall drink no wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother's womb.
So I would be hard pressed to believe Jesus wasn't at least led of the Holy Spirit from His birth as well:
Isaiah 42:1 Behold, my servant, whom I uphold; my chosen, in whom my soul delighteth: I have put my Spirit upon him; he will bring forth justice to the Gentiles.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
You're worshiping the door not the destination or where the door leads to.
The destination is paradise which is the 3rd heaven where the throne of the Father and the throne of the Son to His right sit:
Luke 23:40-43 But the other answered, and rebuking him said, Dost thou not even fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? (41) And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. (42) And he said, Jesus, remember me when thou comest in thy kingdom. (43) And he said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To-day shalt thou be with me in Paradise.
2 Corinthians 12:1-4 I must needs glory, though it is not expedient; but I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. (2) I know a man in Christ, fourteen years ago (whether in the body, I know not; or whether out of the body, I know not; God knoweth), such a one caught up even to the third heaven. (3) And I know such a man (whether in the body, or apart from the body, I know not; God knoweth), (4) how that he was caught up into Paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
Revelation 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches. To him that overcometh, to him will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the Paradise of God.
Revelation 3:21-22 He that overcometh, I will give to him to sit down with me in my throne, as I also overcame, and sat down with my Father in his throne. (22) He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches.
So yes we will be worshiping both the Father and His Son Jesus in heaven as all of creation will be:
Revelation 5:1-14 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the back, close sealed with seven seals. (2) And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a great voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof? (3) And no one in the heaven, or on the earth, or under the earth, was able to open the book, or to look thereon. (4) And I wept much, because no one was found worthy to open the book, or to look thereon: (5) and one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not; behold, the Lion that is of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath overcome to open the book and the seven seals thereof. (6) And I saw in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, a Lamb standing, as though it had been slain, having seven horns, and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent forth into all the earth. (7) And he came, and he taketh it out of the right hand of him that sat on the throne. (8) And when he had taken the book, the four living creatures and the four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having each one a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. (9) And they sing a new song, saying, Worthy art thou to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and didst purchase unto God with thy blood men of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation, (10) and madest them to be unto our God a kingdom and priests; and they reign upon the earth. (11) And I saw, and I heard a voice of many angels round about the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands; (12) saying with a great voice, Worthy is the Lamb that hath been slain to receive the power, and riches, and wisdom, and might, and honor, and glory, and blessing. (13) And every created thing which is in the heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and on the sea, and all things that are in them, heard I saying, Unto him that sitteth on the throne, and unto the Lamb, be the blessing, and the honor, and the glory, and the dominion, for ever and ever. (14) And the four living creatures said, Amen. And the elders fell down and worshipped.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
I guess I am not addressing your point as this implies:
"This doesn't address my post, though. You're worshiping the bridge as if it were the destination."
Jesus is referred to as a Vine so I guess, to the one splitting hairs, I am also worshiping a Vine as well as the Husbandman:
John 15:1-9 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. (2) Every branch in me that beareth not fruit, he taketh it away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he cleanseth it, that it may bear more fruit. (3) Already ye are clean because of the word which I have spoken unto you. (4) Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; so neither can ye, except ye abide in me. (5) I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same beareth much fruit: for apart from me ye can do nothing. (6) If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. (7) If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatsoever ye will, and it shall be done unto you. (8) Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; and so shall ye be my disciples. (9) Even as the Father hath loved me, I also have loved you: abide ye in my love.
Cooky
Veteran Member
I think this is overstepping. Stay in your lane, please.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
I was talking to Moby. Destination is god. Bridge is christ. Trinity is mistaking the bridge for the destination. Not many people are into analogies.
Cooky
Veteran Member
Sorry, it's just a major pet peeve of mine to watch someone tell another person what they believe, or what they're worshipping in this case... Sorry, I can't stand it.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
I don't know. Your verses are distracting.
In scripture Jesus is the Way to god (the bridge from man to god). Trinitarians are worshiping the bridge (the Way) as if it were god (destination). However, even though I understand both views, I'd side with non-trinitarian in that it's idolism to worship the Way. Both figuratively and literally "way" is road that leads from direction to another. Say a highway or a beltway (circle highway).
Of course since the way and the destination are connected, I can see why trintiarians would see them the same. The fact (by scripture) they are not, doesn't devalue either. Just means jesus is the Way "to" god not to himself as god.
Way, Door, Medium, Incarnation, To/From, and so forth denote a relationship between two things. Trinity not unity.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
I play devil's advocate many times. I understand both trinitarian and non-trinitarian views. Though it is a pet peeve of mine to get scripture more than conversation. It makes me repeat my points cause the others (more than one) don't articulate their scriptures in their own words/point. It makes it seem like a debate when it's more miscommunication and asking for constant clarification.
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Cooky
Veteran Member
For each particular person, there will be at least 4 or 5 different indirectly related reasons they can or can't accept the Trinity, that would have to be addressed alongside the subject matter... Which becomes extremely complex... And it will be different for each person.
But for me it becomes frustrating for some reason, to know this, while simultaneously watching someone say something definitive about this topic, such as:
...It seems almost childish.
But for me it becomes frustrating for some reason, to know this, while simultaneously watching someone say something definitive about this topic, such as:
...It seems almost childish.
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Redemptionsong
Well-Known Member
Isaiah 42:1 is, IMO, referring to the baptism in the Spirit and his ministry under the anointing of the Holy Spirit. When Jesus was twelve he showed learning and wisdom, but not the miraculous power that comes from the Holy Spirit.
Was it not the Word of God that led Jesus before he was thirty? Was he not acting under the law?
Galatians 4:4,5. 'But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.'
I would tend to believe our Father's Spirit was actively involved in Jesus life from birth as a Son of God born of the Spirit:
John 3:5-8 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except one be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (6) That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. (7) Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born anew. (8) The wind bloweth where it will, and thou hearest the voice thereof, but knowest not whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
Redemptionsong
Well-Known Member
So what do you think Jesus gained at baptism that he did not have already?
From my point of view, at Luke 3:21 B; Mark 1:10; Matthew 3:16 that at baptism the ' heavens were opened up to Jesus ' which previously were not.
In other words, at his baptism the knowledge or restored memory of his pre-human heavenly life was revealed or the heavens parted or opened up to Jesus.
Notice that Luke gives us the detail that Jesus was praying to his God at the time of baptism.
John 6:46 adds that only Jesus 'the one from God' who has seen the Father.
Jesus knew who sent him to Earth according to John 7:28-29.
In his later prayer at John 17:5 Jesus prays that his heavenly place be restored 'with' his God.
The answer lies in the fact that John though filled with the Spirit since the womb desired to be baptized of Jesus rather than baptize Him:
Matthew 3:13-15 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to the Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him. (14) But John would have hindered him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? (15) But Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffereth him.
Jesus was demonstrating to us that to fulfill all righteousness we must be baptized in water and the Holy Spirit:
John 1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize in water, he said unto me, Upon whomsoever thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and abiding upon him, the same is he that baptizeth in the Holy Spirit.
Acts 10:44-48 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Spirit fell on all them that heard the word. (45) And they of the circumcision that believed were amazed, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Spirit. (46) For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, (47) Can any man forbid the water, that these should not be baptized, who have received the Holy Spirit as well as we? (48) And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
Most Christians are first born again as I was at 7 years old, then baptized in water some time later as I was in my 20s, then filled with the Holy Spirit years later such as I was at the age of 40. I know I was filled with the Spirit of Christ and led of the Spirit for those 33 years from 7 to 40:
Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you. But if any man hath not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
But I was not filled with the Holy Spirit that led me into my wilderness to be tempted and overcome the devil until I was 40 as Jesus was when He was thirty:
Matthew 3:16-4:1 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway from the water: and lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove, and coming upon him; (17) and lo, a voice out of the heavens, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. (4:1) Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.
Luke 3:21-23 Now it came to pass, when all the people were baptized, that, Jesus also having been baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened, (22) and the Holy Spirit descended in a bodily form, as a dove, upon him, and a voice came out of heaven, Thou art my beloved Son: in thee I am well pleased. (23) And Jesus himself, when he began to teach, was about thirty years of age,...