Trinity: True or False?

[wellwisher]

For those who want lots of scripture that teaches what our Most High God intended us to believe about Him and His Word and His Holy Spirit:

Trinity: True or False?

One way to understand the trinity is with a simple analogy. A man named John, is a husband to his wife, a father to his children and a son to his parents. He is one person called John, but he has three roles; dad, honey and son, and relates in each role, in different ways that suit their needs. He is intimate with his wife in a way he is not with the others, he is respectful of his parents in a way that is different from the others and he is firm but fair with his children, in a way unique to them.

In Christianity some people worship God through the Old Testament; Father, some through the New testament; Son, and others worship in the moment, via the Spirit; Holy Spirit. It is the same God, but with different roles for relating to these different temperaments and needs.

 

[Redemptionsong]

The answer lies in the fact that John though filled with the Spirit since the womb desired to be baptized of Jesus rather than baptize Him:

Matthew 3:13-15 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to the Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him. (14) But John would have hindered him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? (15) But Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffereth him.

Jesus was demonstrating to us that to fulfill all righteousness we must be baptized in water and the Holy Spirit:

John 1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize in water, he said unto me, Upon whomsoever thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and abiding upon him, the same is he that baptizeth in the Holy Spirit.

Acts 10:44-48 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Spirit fell on all them that heard the word. (45) And they of the circumcision that believed were amazed, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Spirit. (46) For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, (47) Can any man forbid the water, that these should not be baptized, who have received the Holy Spirit as well as we? (48) And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Most Christians are first born again as I was at 7 years old, then baptized in water some time later as I was in my 20s, then filled with the Holy Spirit years later such as I was at the age of 40. I know I was filled with the Spirit of Christ and led of the Spirit for those 33 years from 7 to 40:

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you. But if any man hath not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

But I was not filled with the Holy Spirit that led me into my wilderness to be tempted and overcome the devil until I was 40 as Jesus was when He was thirty:

Matthew 3:16-4:1 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway from the water: and lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove, and coming upon him; (17) and lo, a voice out of the heavens, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. (4:1) Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.

Luke 3:21-23 Now it came to pass, when all the people were baptized, that, Jesus also having been baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened, (22) and the Holy Spirit descended in a bodily form, as a dove, upon him, and a voice came out of heaven, Thou art my beloved Son: in thee I am well pleased. (23) And Jesus himself, when he began to teach, was about thirty years of age,...

As I see it, there are two sides to baptism. The human response to Christ's love; and Christ's response to human faith. The human response to Jesus Christ's love is an acknowledgement of personal sin and a deep desire to embrace Jesus Christ.

John's baptism was a baptism that prepared people for the coming Holy Spirit.

I believe that, following Pentecost, water baptism, symbolising the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, is the outward ritual that introduces a person into the visible Church. What really matters to God is trust in the person of Jesus Christ. It's this trust, involving repentance, that enables a person to receive the outpouring of the Holy Spirit as promised by Jesus.

There's a big difference between religion, which involves man's righteousness, and faith in Jesus Christ, which involves a handing over of power to Christ. The righteousness of God is not our righteousness, and should not be confused with the righteousness found in religion.

It is not for me to question your experience of faith, but in my experience a person is not born again until they are filled with the Holy Spirit.

 

[Redemptionsong]

From my point of view, at Luke 3:21 B; Mark 1:10; Matthew 3:16 that at baptism the ' heavens were opened up to Jesus ' which previously were not.
In other words, at his baptism the knowledge or restored memory of his pre-human heavenly life was revealed or the heavens parted or opened up to Jesus.
Notice that Luke gives us the detail that Jesus was praying to his God at the time of baptism.
John 6:46 adds that only Jesus 'the one from God' who has seen the Father.
Jesus knew who sent him to Earth according to John 7:28-29.
In his later prayer at John 17:5 Jesus prays that his heavenly place be restored 'with' his God.

The Gospels record not only that Jesus saw the heavens opened, but that he saw 'the Spirit like a dove descending upon him' [Mark 1:10]

If the Spirit, the one Spirit of God, was already upon Jesus, why was it necessary for the same Spirit to come again?

We must also be careful not to replace God's words with our words. In John 6:46, it does not say that Jesus was 'the one from God'. It says 'save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father'. If the Spirit of the Father was in the Son, then the Spirit of the Father communicates with the soul of Jesus. Throughout the Gospel of John, which gives us the perspective of the Son of God, we have Jesus speaking prophetically as the Father.

Would Jesus have been able to speak these words [John 7:28,29] before he was baptised in the Jordan river?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

The destination is paradise which is the 3rd heaven where the throne of the Father and the throne of the Son to His right sit:
Luke 23:40-43 But the other answered, and rebuking him said, Dost thou not even fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? (41) And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. (42) And he said, Jesus, remember me when thou comest in thy kingdom. (43) And he said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To-day shalt thou be with me in Paradise.
2 Corinthians 12:1-4 I must needs glory, though it is not expedient; but I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. (2) I know a man in Christ, fourteen years ago (whether in the body, I know not; or whether out of the body, I know not; God knoweth), such a one caught up even to the third heaven. (3) And I know such a man (whether in the body, or apart from the body, I know not; God knoweth), (4) how that he was caught up into Paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
Revelation 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches. To him that overcometh, to him will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the Paradise of God.
Revelation 3:21-22 He that overcometh, I will give to him to sit down with me in my throne, as I also overcame, and sat down with my Father in his throne. (22) He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches......................................

I see mentioned ^ above ^ , ' To-day shalt thou be with me in Paradise ' and I wonder why the comma (,) is placed ' before ' the word To-day because in Scripture Jesus did Not go anywhere on the day he died except to the grave according to Acts of the Apostles 2:27.
In Scripture, Jesus was NOT resurrected on the day he died.
So, Jesus made the promise to the thief on the day they died, in other words, Truly I tell you today (,) that you will be with me in Paradise ( future tense ).
Please notice Acts of the Apostles 24:15 also uses the ' future tense' by saying 'there is going to be ' a resurrection......
So, the thief would be dead as Jesus taught at John 11-11-14 that the dead are in a sleep-like state.
That sleeping state for the dead is in harmony with the OT: Psalms 6:5; Psalms 13:3; Psalms 115:17; Isaiah 38:18; Ecclesiastes 9:5

In short also notice 2 Peter 3:13 because both are mentioned a new heavens and a new earth.
The 1st heavens are the heavens of Noah's day according to 2 Peter 3:5
The 2nd heavens are the heavens from Noah's day down to our day - 2 Peter 3:7
The 3rd heavens is the governing heavens over Earth during Jesus 1,000-year governmental reign over Earth for a thousand years.

At Revelation 3:21 I read about two (2) thrones and No throne for God's holy spirit.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Would Jesus have been able to speak these words [John 7:28-29] before he was baptised in the Jordan river?

At baptism Jesus became Messiah for us.
I find John 7:28-29 to be in harmony with John 5:19; John 8:42; John 8:54-55, do you _____________
Whether before or after Baptism Jesus knew who his Father was, and Jesus did Not send himself - Luke 2:48-49
According to John, Jesus he was God's representative - John 1:18; 1 John 4:12

 

[TrueBeliever37]

Trinity is not polytheism but one God of three persons whereas the thesis of my link proves our Father is the Most High God whereas Jesus is our God under Him.

The Trinity is polytheism. Yes in words they say they believe in one God. Because the scripture is so clear about there only being one God, they are forced to make that claim. But in reality they believe in 3 separate distinct persons that are each totally and completely God. That means they believe in 3 Gods - no matter how they try to claim otherwise.

 

[Redemptionsong]

At baptism Jesus became Messiah for us.
I find John 7:28-29 to be in harmony with John 5:19; John 8:42; John 8:54-55, do you _____________
Whether before or after Baptism Jesus knew who his Father was, and Jesus did Not send himself - Luke 2:48-49
According to John, Jesus he was God's representative - John 1:18; 1 John 4:12

The scriptures also tell us that God is Spirit [John 4:24]. Jesus was born of flesh and blood, and scripture tells us that God is not a man [Numbers 23:19]. This must tell us that Jesus was a man upon whom the Spirit of God rested [Isaiah 61:1].

 

[URAVIP2ME]

The scriptures also tell us that God is Spirit [John 4:24]. Jesus was born of flesh and blood, and scripture tells us that God is not a man [Numbers 23:19]. This must tell us that Jesus was a man upon whom the Spirit of God rested [ Isaiah 61:1].

Yes, God's spirit when He sent forth (Psalms 104:30) rested on Jesus.
We can also find God's spirit as located at Job :27:3

 

[JerryMyers]

One way to understand the trinity is with a simple analogy. A man named John, is a husband to his wife, a father to his children and a son to his parents. He is one person called John, but he has three roles; dad, honey and son, and relates in each role, in different ways that suit their needs. He is intimate with his wife in a way he is not with the others, he is respectful of his parents in a way that is different from the others and he is firm but fair with his children, in a way unique to them.

In Christianity some people worship God through the Old Testament; Father, some through the New testament; Son, and others worship in the moment, via the Spirit; Holy Spirit. It is the same God, but with different roles for relating to these different temperaments and needs.

Definition of the trinity is ‘God (the Father) is the son (Jesus) and God is also the Holy Spirit, but, the son is NOT the Father nor is he the Holy Spirit AND the Holy Spirit is NOT the Father nor is he the son – they are three distinct persons and they can coexist at the same time and space.

So, taking your simple analogy, a man named John is a husband to his wife, a father to his children and a son to his parents – John is one person but he has 3 roles. Well, that’s not even close to what the trinity is because the trinity is NOT about ‘roles-playing’, it’s about who God is as understood by Trinitarians. Your analogy of the trinity has many flaws - John is a husband to his wife but he’s NOT his own wife nor is he a husband to himself, John is a father to his children but he’s NOT his own children nor is he a father to himself and John is the son to his parents but he’s NOT his own parents nor is he a son to himself. In your simple analogy, you are NOT talking about three distinct persons where one (the Father) is also literally the other two as in the trinity, BUT you are talking about numerous (more than 3) distinct, very different persons, that is, John, his wife, his children, his father and his mother (his parents). Try again.

Trinitarians do not worship God through Jesus, they worship Jesus the man because they believe he is God too!! Moreover, if Jesus even told Satan to worship the one and only God, would he then, tell mankind to worship him as God ??

So, to the question: Is the trinity true or false ?? Without a shadow of a doubt – it’s FALSE ! Why do you think not a single prophet of God, including Jesus, ever preach the trinity in their respective life time ??

 

[Muffled]

One way to understand the trinity is with a simple analogy. A man named John, is a husband to his wife, a father to his children and a son to his parents. He is one person called John, but he has three roles; dad, honey and son, and relates in each role, in different ways that suit their needs. He is intimate with his wife in a way he is not with the others, he is respectful of his parents in a way that is different from the others and he is firm but fair with his children, in a way unique to them.

In Christianity some people worship God through the Old Testament; Father, some through the New testament; Son, and others worship in the moment, via the Spirit; Holy Spirit. It is the same God, but with different roles for relating to these different temperaments and needs.

I believe, technically, the Paraclete is all three in one.

 

[Muffled]

The Trinity is polytheism. Yes in words they say they believe in one God. Because the scripture is so clear about there only being one God, they are forced to make that claim. But in reality they believe in 3 separate distinct persons that are each totally and completely God. That means they believe in 3 Gods - no matter how they try to claim otherwise.

I believe some people slip into that but I am not one of them. In all three members of the Trinity it is the same God.

 

[Muffled]

The scriptures also tell us that God is Spirit [John 4:24]. Jesus was born of flesh and blood, and scripture tells us that God is not a man [Numbers 23:19]. This must tell us that Jesus was a man upon whom the Spirit of God rested [Isaiah 61:1].

I believe you could say "rested" for the prophets but in Jesus He is installed.

 

[Redemptionsong]

I believe you could say "rested" for the prophets but in Jesus He is installed.

I wondered why the Holy Spirit had only 'rested upon', but then realised that the Spirit of God had to forsake Jesus at crucifixion.

 

[moorea944]

I believe you could say "rested" for the prophets but in Jesus He is installed.

Not quit sure what you mean by "installed". Is there a verse on that?

 

[TrueBeliever37]

I believe some people slip into that but I am not one of them. In all three members of the Trinity it is the same God.

Please explain how that is possible. Because if you believe there are 3 different persons that are each God, you believe in 3 Gods.

 

[Muffled]

I wondered why the Holy Spirit had only 'rested upon', but then realised that the Spirit of God had to forsake Jesus at crucifixion.

I don't believe that happened. The Spirit of God left the body but the body was going to die anyway.

 

[Muffled]

Not quit sure what you mean by "installed". Is there a verse on that?

I believe this is it: Luke 1:35 And the angel answered her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy— the Son of God

 

[Muffled]

Please explain how that is possible. Because if you believe there are 3 different persons that are each God, you believe in 3 Gods.

I do not believe there ae three different persons by the usual definitions. It is only person by an ecclesiastical definition and that definition does not require finite entities.

I have explained this in other posts but I will do it again:

The Spirit of God that is the Father is a person by right of having a personality but no body.
The Spirit of God in Jesus is a person having a personality and a personal body
The Spirit of God in believers is a person because He has many personalities and personal bodies

As you can see each person is quite different from the other just as a blond is different from a redhead. However it is the same Spirit of God in all three person and the Spirit of God has only one personality.

 

[Wrangler]

Trinity is not polytheism but one God of three persons whereas the thesis of my link proves our Father is the Most High God whereas Jesus is our God under Him.

2 first causes?

 

[Wrangler]

I do not believe there ae three different persons by the usual definitions.

Agreed. There are only 2 beings or persons, which a trinity does not make. God and his elect.

One big problem with trinitarianism is that the trinity is not in the Bible - not the word, not the concept. The Bible is wholly written by Hebrews who are monotheists. That is, the authors of the Bible rejected the trinity. No where in the OT is it prophesied that God would come in the flesh.

Trinitarians refer to ABNORMAL definitions to support their idolatry, supposing metaphorical language supersedes literal words to the contrary. Jesus said I am, for instance. So did many others. It is a common way of identifying oneself.

Trinitarians are so desperate for Biblical support, they suppose this equates to an explicit claim of divinity.