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trinity???

hanif

Member
116.And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah.?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, Thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden. http://www.kuran.gen.tr/pop_verse_recommend.php?kid=14&sid=5&ayet_no=117 http://www.mobiquran.com/ http://www.kuran.gen.tr/pop_sura_arapca.php?kid=14&sid=5&ayet_no=117 http://www.mobiquran.com/ 117."Never said I to them aught except what Thou didst command me to say, to wit, 'Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord'; and I was a witness over them whilst I dwelt amongst them; when Thou didst take me up Thou wast the Watcher over them, and Thou art a witness to all things. http://www.kuran.gen.tr/pop_verse_recommend.php?kid=14&sid=5&ayet_no=118 http://www.mobiquran.com/ http://www.kuran.gen.tr/pop_sura_arapca.php?kid=14&sid=5&ayet_no=118 http://www.mobiquran.com/ 118."If Thou dost punish them, they are Thy servant: If Thou dost forgive them, Thou art the Exalted in power, the Wise." http://www.kuran.gen.tr/pop_verse_recommend.php?kid=14&sid=5&ayet_no=119 http://www.mobiquran.com/ http://www.kuran.gen.tr/pop_sura_arapca.php?kid=14&sid=5&ayet_no=119 http://www.mobiquran.com/ 119.Allah will say: "This is a day on which the truthful will profit from their truth: theirs are Gardens, with rivers flowing beneath,- their eternal Home: Allah well-pleased with them, and they with Allah. That is the great salvation, (the fulfillment of all desires). http://www.kuran.gen.tr/pop_verse_recommend.php?kid=14&sid=5&ayet_no=120 http://www.mobiquran.com/ http://www.kuran.gen.tr/pop_sura_arapca.php?kid=14&sid=5&ayet_no=120 http://www.mobiquran.com/ 120.To Allah doth belong the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is therein, and it is He Who hath power over all things.
 

Mister Emu

Emu Extraordinaire
Staff member
Premium Member
Didst thou say unto men, take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah.?"
I think most everyone here will agree that Jesus never said take me and my mother for two gods beside the Father.
 

finalfrogo

Well-Known Member
hanif said:
116.And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah.?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, Thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden. 117."Never said I to them aught except what Thou didst command me to say, to wit, 'Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord'; and I was a witness over them whilst I dwelt amongst them; when Thou didst take me up Thou wast the Watcher over them, and Thou art a witness to all things. 118."If Thou dost punish them, they are Thy servant: If Thou dost forgive them, Thou art the Exalted in power, the Wise." 119.Allah will say: "This is a day on which the truthful will profit from their truth: theirs are Gardens, with rivers flowing beneath,- their eternal Home: Allah well-pleased with them, and they with Allah. That is the great salvation, (the fulfillment of all desires). 120.To Allah doth belong the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is therein, and it is He Who hath power over all things.

I don't see your point... but I'm guessing that you are questioning the trinity, and wondering if it is actually polytheism. The Christian trinity is not three separate God, but a single God divided into three forms and functions.
 

PHOTOTAKER

Well-Known Member
finalfrogo said:
I don't see your point... but I'm guessing that you are questioning the trinity, and wondering if it is actually polytheism. The Christian trinity is not three separate God, but a single God divided into three forms and functions.

i know where you are getting this from, but god opened up heaven and said, "this is my beloved in whom i am well pleased." this happened after Jesus came form the water and the holy ghost came like a dove... this in Matthew supports three separate and individual beings... where i believe the confusion come in is when Jesus talked about the father (god) and Jesus’ works are interrelated and would never contradicted each other..."the father is in me and I in the father" this whole passage of scripter is about the will of both the father and the son being the same as far as earth is concerned...
 

finalfrogo

Well-Known Member
PHOTOTAKER said:
i know where you are getting this from, but god opened up heaven and said, "this is my beloved in whom i am well pleased." this happened after Jesus came form the water and the holy ghost came like a dove... this in Matthew supports three separate and individual beings... where i believe the confusion come in is when Jesus talked about the father (god) and Jesus’ works are interrelated and would never contradicted each other..."the father is in me and I in the father" this whole passage of scripter is about the will of both the father and the son being the same as far as earth is concerned...

I was merely displaying the belief of the average Christian.

Are you proposing that Christianity is polytheistic?
 

Booko

Deviled Hen
finalfrogo said:
I don't see your point... but I'm guessing that you are questioning the trinity, and wondering if it is actually polytheism. The Christian trinity is not three separate God, but a single God divided into three forms and functions.

No, but the Christians in the area where Muhammad lived were Christian heretics, and their beliefs were not so far off. I wish I could remember the name of the heresy...it would be helpful about now.

I'm sorry, I'm working from my addled memory here, but I remember reading the context of these verses in some scholarly text on the history of Islam.
 

PHOTOTAKER

Well-Known Member
finalfrogo said:
I was merely displaying the belief of the average Christian.

Are you proposing that Christianity is polytheistic?


i believe misunderstood... there are parts of the bible that have logical fallacies and people jump to conclusions... both god and Jesus is referenced both as individuals and as one being... but the one being is always as a will to do the same... i have never seen it referenced in the bible or other biblical text form the nt documents that referenced God and Jesus as one being both in will and in personages only in will are they referenced the same... i believe and know in one God and that is our father in heaven, his son holding all that his father has, Jesus Christ, and the holy ghost as a messenger to us form god and Jesus also holding all that the father has... so in since if the Holy Ghost gives us a message it is as if God himself is speaking… the will and glory is always to the Father or God… that’s what most people leave out that this earth is in the name and glory of the father or God… I hope this help out a bit…
 

PHOTOTAKER

Well-Known Member
I’ve tried to read the Qumran but I always felt that there is a lot missing from the text. I would imagine that it may be form the translation or form pour records in the early days of this relgion... since I don't speak Muslim or the language of this text... there just seems to be somthing missing to me... anyone also feels this way???
 

hanif

Member
Are you proposing that Christianity is polytheistic?
christianity is not exactly polytheism.but something in christianity came from polytheism.
three faces of god like this.
GOD IS ONLY ONE.JESUS AND MARY IS ONLY HUMAN.
 

hanif

Member
In the Matthew gospel we are told both that Christ is the son of David and then again that Christ was not the son of David, but rather God was literally the father of Christ. Yet the early church insisted that Christ was the son of David and thus the Matthew Jewish community had to move out of the mainstream of Christian thought to make this assertion, taking one more stand against the apostle Paul, something which seemed typical for them to do (because in this case they represented a reactionary backlash movement in the early church among conservatives, something easy to demonstrate.)
In order to understand what is going on here, you must remember that certain elements of this Jewish community were terribly bigoted against Gentiles. And they held to the infallible inerrancy of the Torah, right down to the last dot over the last letter ‘i'. And you might recall how Moabites and their descendants were banned from the assembly forever and ever and ever. And you might recall how David was a Moabite ‘half breed'. Now Joseph was a descendant of David, and thus Joseph was tainted with that bad, bad Moabite mixed blood, and was also, by the way, under the eternal Moabite curse of the infallible Torah, at least in their mind, thus there was no way on God's green earth that they were going to allow Joseph to be Christ's father, or to allow Christ to be a Son of David, even if they had to condemn Paul and the rest of the early church and twist and pervert prophecies from Isaiah and the other prophets, they were not going to allow Joseph, the tainted cursed Moabite half breed and his descendant Joseph to be the father of Christ. The Messiah, carrying that tainted half breed Moabite blood line. God forbid. Now most of what could be used as messianic prophecies are 'pro-David' and mention David, and this explains why this one segment of the community were forced to take passages out of context to make their case. They went searching for some prophecy or anything they could lay their hands on to prove that ‘God was Christ's father' (literally) and certainly not that tainted Joseph, and in the process they found a verse in Isaiah that they could twist and use, and in the process, by coincidence, Mary, the Levite, became Mary, the Levite Virgin, because the passage was mistranslated in the Greek Septuagint. The fact that Mary became a virgin in the process was unimportant to them whose only real concern was finding someway, anyway, to ditch Joseph and his half breed ancestor, David, as Christ's ancestors. You see, they had a terrible character flaw, in that they were just that bigoted, and that is why the church today has a virgin birth story. (Peculiar tale, is it not?)
The fact that some controversy existed over Christ's ‘half breed' status is also found in the gospel of John. You might recall the story in Kings, quoted previously, that suggested that Samaritans were themselves a kind of bastardized half breed of a Jew. Some of the Jewish people were attacking Joshua and calling him ‘a Samaritan' (translate, in the light of Kings quoted above, and this means they were calling him some bastardized, Gentile dog mixture of a Jew).
"The Jews answered him, "Are we not right in saying that you are a Samaritan and have a demon?"" (John Chapter 8 verse 48)
These would be those same Jewish people who just didn't have anything to do with Samaritans or other Gentile dogs. So someone came to ‘the rescue' and out the door goes Joseph, and in comes the Holy Ghost to get that job of impregnating Mary done to their satisfaction. So the virgin birth story originated in a bigoted mind, and in his whose eyes, even King David was unsuitable as a father for Joshua Messiah. The virgin birth story was not original to the Matthew gospel but a later interpolation, and this explains why Christ was not a descendant of David and yet at the same time throughout the Matthew gospel he is called ‘the son of David' (a messianic title) both at the same time. This reactionary element would have also have been responsible for inserting the inconsistent statement regarding the infallible inerrancy of the Bible into the Sermon on the Mount, so as to keep the whole Torah and the prophets, including the prophets who condemned the Torah, both at the same time, a fine example of how dissonant things can somehow miraculously coexist in the mind of bigoted person, and no big surprise really. Mark heard nothing about a virgin birth, and has nothing to say about it, Paul doesn't mention it, and as for Luke picking up on that story and spinning it out even further, well, Luke did a lot of things with the gospel, and that was just one of them (and a story for another page).
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Ya know...you guys didn't like it much when cartoonists made caricatures of Muhammed. Now, you're doing the same thing to Christians: Making a caricature of Christ by making him into something less than he is.:tsk:
 

hanif

Member
NO JESUS IS THE GREAT PROPHET.WE BELIVE ALL THE PRPOHETS AND ALSO JESUS.
163.We have sent thee inspiration, as We sent it to Noah and the Messengers after him: we sent inspiration to Abraham, Ismail, Isaac, Jacob and the Tribes, to Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron, and Solomon, and to David We gave the Psalms. 164.Of some messengers We have already told thee the story; of others We have not;- and to Moses Allah spoke direct;-
BUT WE DONT BELIEVE JESUS AS A GOD.GOD IS ONLY ONE.AND JESUS NEVER SAID I AM A SON OF GOD.JESUS IS ONLY MESSENGER.AND ALSO MUHAMMED ASM IS MESSENGER ONLY,THEY WERENT GOD OR SON OF GOD.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
hanif said:
NO JESUS IS THE GREAT PROPHET.WE BELIVE ALL THE PRPOHETS AND ALSO JESUS.
163.We have sent thee inspiration, as We sent it to Noah and the Messengers after him: we sent inspiration to Abraham, Ismail, Isaac, Jacob and the Tribes, to Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron, and Solomon, and to David We gave the Psalms. 164.Of some messengers We have already told thee the story; of others We have not;- and to Moses Allah spoke direct;-
BUT WE DONT BELIEVE JESUS AS A GOD.GOD IS ONLY ONE.AND JESUS NEVER SAID I AM A SON OF GOD.JESUS IS ONLY MESSENGER.AND ALSO MUHAMMED ASM IS MESSENGER ONLY,THEY WERENT GOD OR SON OF GOD.

But...we do believe that Jesus is God. And, since it is *we* Christians who follow Jesus, you should respect *our* viewpoint.
 

Booko

Deviled Hen
hanif said:
NO JESUS IS THE GREAT PROPHET.WE BELIVE ALL THE PRPOHETS AND ALSO JESUS.
163.We have sent thee inspiration, as We sent it to Noah and the Messengers after him: we sent inspiration to Abraham, Ismail, Isaac, Jacob and the Tribes, to Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron, and Solomon, and to David We gave the Psalms. 164.Of some messengers We have already told thee the story; of others We have not;- and to Moses Allah spoke direct;-
BUT WE DONT BELIEVE JESUS AS A GOD.GOD IS ONLY ONE.AND JESUS NEVER SAID I AM A SON OF GOD.JESUS IS ONLY MESSENGER.AND ALSO MUHAMMED ASM IS MESSENGER ONLY,THEY WERENT GOD OR SON OF GOD.

Jesus didn't exactly *deny* it, though, did He?

Gospel of Mark
3:11 And unclean spirits, when they saw him, fell down before him, and cried, saying, Thou art the Son of God.
3:12 And he straitly charged them that they should not make him known.

IOW, the unclean spirits recognized Jesus for who he was, but Jesus told them to not spread it around.

btw, I don't know what you believe "Son of God" means, but whatever you think it is, I probably don't believe Jesus is that either.

imo, "Son of God" is a title, just like "Friend of God" is.

And Muslims call Jesus "Spirit of God" (Ruhollah), but that doesn't equate Jesus with the Holy Spirit either, now does it?
 

hanif

Member
88.They say: "The Most Gracious GOD has begotten a son!" http://www.kuran.gen.tr/pop_verse_recommend.php?kid=14&sid=19&ayet_no=89 http://www.mobiquran.com/ http://www.kuran.gen.tr/pop_sura_arapca.php?kid=14&sid=19&ayet_no=89 http://www.mobiquran.com/ 89.Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous! http://www.kuran.gen.tr/pop_verse_recommend.php?kid=14&sid=19&ayet_no=90 http://www.mobiquran.com/ http://www.kuran.gen.tr/pop_sura_arapca.php?kid=14&sid=19&ayet_no=90 http://www.mobiquran.com/ 90.At it the skies are about to burst, the earth to split asunder, and the mountains to fall down in utter ruin, http://www.kuran.gen.tr/pop_verse_recommend.php?kid=14&sid=19&ayet_no=91 http://www.mobiquran.com/ http://www.kuran.gen.tr/pop_sura_arapca.php?kid=14&sid=19&ayet_no=91 http://www.mobiquran.com/ 91.That they attributed a son for the Most Gracious. http://www.kuran.gen.tr/pop_verse_recommend.php?kid=14&sid=19&ayet_no=92 http://www.mobiquran.com/ http://www.kuran.gen.tr/pop_sura_arapca.php?kid=14&sid=19&ayet_no=92 http://www.mobiquran.com/ 92.For it is not consonant with the majesty of the Most Gracious that He should beget a son. http://www.kuran.gen.tr/pop_verse_recommend.php?kid=14&sid=19&ayet_no=93 http://www.mobiquran.com/ http://www.kuran.gen.tr/pop_sura_arapca.php?kid=14&sid=19&ayet_no=93 http://www.mobiquran.com/ 93.Not one of the beings in the heavens and the earth but must come to the Most Gracious as a servant. JESUS IS NOT GOD.THIS IS POLYTHEISM.AND JESUS NEVER SAID I AM GOD.
 

mormonman

Ammon is awesome
finalfrogo said:
I don't see your point... but I'm guessing that you are questioning the trinity, and wondering if it is actually polytheism. The Christian trinity is not three separate God, but a single God divided into three forms and functions.
How do you explain acts 7:55-56? "But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God." Stephen saw two beings not one.

It says in the scritpures that blaspheming the Holy Ghost is an unforgivable sin, but blaspheming God the Father and Christ are forgivable. If the Trinity is one, does this mean blaspheming God's hand you'll go to hell for, but blaspheming his leg your fine?

This is what I think about the Trinity, "Although the members of the Godhead are distinct beings w/ distinct roles, they are one in purpose and doctrine. They are perfectly united in bringing to pass Heavenly Father's divine plan of salvation"(True to the Faith).
 

hanif

Member
Trinity Is Deviation.god Is Only One There Is No God Except Him.
Trinity Came From Mitraism And The Other Anctic Religions.
 

Scott1

Well-Known Member
Booko said:
No, but the Christians in the area where Muhammad lived were Christian heretics, and their beliefs were not so far off. I wish I could remember the name of the heresy...it would be helpful about now.
Quite right... the Monophysite heresy.

As you for you, my dear brother hanif, you can't really expect anyone to take your argument seriously.

The Qu'ran might be your holy book, but something written 500 years after the death of Christ and not considered of divine origin (by a Christian) is hardly evidence to us.

You be happy with your prophet.

... and I will stick with the WORD MADE FLESH, the divine son of the living God, the first and the last, the alpha and the omega, the savior of all mankind.

Immaculata pray for us,
Scott
 
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