trinity???

[hanif]

75.Christ the son of Mary was no more than a messenger; many were the messengers that passed away before him. His mother was a woman of truth. They had both to eat their (daily) food. See how Allah doth make His signs clear to them; yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth! http://www.kuran.gen.tr/pop_verse_recommend.php?kid=14&sid=5&ayet_no=76http://www.mobiquran.com/http://www.kuran.gen.tr/pop_sura_arapca.php?kid=14&sid=5&ayet_no=76http://www.mobiquran.com/76.Say: "Will ye worship, besides Allah, something which hath no power either to harm or benefit you? But Allah,- He it is that heareth and knoweth all things

 

[michel]

God Is Real.he Is Not Imagine.and Koran Is His Book.it Is Not Only My Opinion It Is Real.

Hanif, with the greatest of respect, since I have been here, I have noticed a big divide between the Muslims I have come across on this Forums, and the Christians.

We Christians believe that the Bible is our holy book. Islam's holy Book is the qu'ran; Christians are happy to accept that your holy book is your chosen book; I do so wish yor people would not keep telling us (Christians) That the qu'ran is the 'right and only' Holy book. You only ever quote arguments as they appear from believing the Qu'ran to be 'THE' Holy book.

It isn't the

 

[Booko]

We Christians believe that the Bible is our holy book. Islam's holy Book is the qu'ran; Christians are happy to accept that your holy book is your chosen book; I do so wish yor people would not keep telling us (Christians) That the qu'ran is the 'right and only' Holy book. You only ever quote arguments as they appear from believing the Qu'ran to be 'THE' Holy book.

Heck, Michel, I'm not even sure the Qu'ran makes the claim that it's the only right book. Certainly it doesn't make the claim to be the only holy book. That's why Muhammad referred so many times to Jews, Christians and Sabeans as "People of the Book" and said that if they believed in God and the Last Day, they would have nothing to fear or regret.

Gosh, sounds like the older "Books" must've had something "right" and "holy" about them, or surely the Jews, Christians, et. al. _would_ have something to fear and regret?

 

[jewscout]

KORAN NEVER SAID TRINITY IS GOD MARY AND JESUS.BUT YOU HAVENT INTELLIGENT SO YOU CANT UNDERSTAND IT.
TRINITY CAME FROM POLYTHEISM.SO CHRISTIANITY IS POLYTHEISM.
THERE IS A LOT OF MISTAKES IN YOUR BIBLE.
JACOB WRESTLED WITH GOD AND WIN HIM.GOD WALKS IN THE GARDEN.(GENESIS)
OLD TESTAMENT IS FULL OF WRONGS.AND NEW TESTAMENT SUGGEST POLYTHEISM.
YOU SAY 1+1+1=1 GOD AND JESUS AND HOLY SPIRIT IS GOD BUT THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD.
SO YOU REALY SAY THERE IS THREE GOD AND YOU ARE PLYTHEIST.AND KONW THIS THERE IS NO ERROR IN KORAN ERROR IS IN THE BIBLE.
72.Certainly they disbelieve who say: "Allah is Christ the son of Mary." But said Christ: "O Children of Israel! worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Whoever joins other gods with Allah,- Allah will forbid him the Garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help. 73.They disbelieved who say: Allah is one of three (in a Trinity): for there is no god except One God. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous chastisement will befall the disbelievers among them.

any g-d who condemns good people to eternal damnation just cause they are on the wrong team is no g-d i ever want to pray to...

 

[michel]

Heck, Michel, I'm not even sure the Qu'ran makes the claim that it's the only right book. Certainly it doesn't make the claim to be the only holy book. That's why Muhammad referred so many times to Jews, Christians and Sabeans as "People of the Book" and said that if they believed in God and the Last Day, they would have nothing to fear or regret.

Gosh, sounds like the older "Books" must've had something "right" and "holy" about them, or surely the Jews, Christians, et. al. _would_ have something to fear and regret?

i didn't say that the "Qu'ran makes the claim that it's the only right book"; I said that Islamic members talk of it as if they believe it is.

Gosh, sounds like the older "Books" must've had something "right" and "holy" about them, or surely the Jews, Christians, et. al. _would_ have something to fear and regret?

Off topic, from that comment, you make it sound as if anyone who doesn't follow a religion is going to be 'in trouble' when the time comes.

 

[gnostic]

You know, LR, reading a work out of context is a very dangerous thing to do.

You're right, Booko.

But I believe that both Christians and Muslims have taken other religion's scripture as well as their own out of context. I saw this many times at islam.com, and I often find it at this site here too.

Often they (either Christian or Muslim) would take small snippet here or there, and emphasise the meaning, without taking the whole consideration of the rest of the passages. When you ignore the surrounding texts, then you are taking snippet out of context, and the original passage loses its meaning.

It is bad habits from both parties.

 

[James the Persian]

KORAN NEVER SAID TRINITY IS GOD MARY AND JESUS.BUT YOU HAVENT INTELLIGENT SO YOU CANT UNDERSTAND IT.
TRINITY CAME FROM POLYTHEISM.SO CHRISTIANITY IS POLYTHEISM.

I would dispute this.

O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah.?"

This most certainly does imply that the Trinity consists of Christ, the Theotokos and God and I've heard many Muslims use this as an argument against the Trinity. Unfortunately that is not the Trinity but a Muslim (and particularly Mohammed's) misconception of it.

Christianity is also most certainly not polytheist. We do not believe in several gods but in one God who has revealed Himself to us as being in three Hypostases (usually, and poorly, translated as Persons in English). That is not polytheism at all. It is monotheism but with further revelation as to the nature and not just the number of God.

THERE IS A LOT OF MISTAKES IN YOUR BIBLE.
JACOB WRESTLED WITH GOD AND WIN HIM.GOD WALKS IN THE GARDEN.(GENESIS)
OLD TESTAMENT IS FULL OF WRONGS.AND NEW TESTAMENT SUGGEST POLYTHEISM.
YOU SAY 1+1+1=1 GOD AND JESUS AND HOLY SPIRIT IS GOD BUT THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD.
SO YOU REALY SAY THERE IS THREE GOD AND YOU ARE PLYTHEIST.AND KONW THIS THERE IS NO ERROR IN KORAN ERROR IS IN THE BIBLE.

Here you invent errors in the OT by reading that which is metaphorical as literal which is a problem you share with certain fundamentalist Christians but this is by no means the approach of the majority. The irony is that you end with repeating your claim that there is no error in the Koran and posting this:

72.Certainly they disbelieve who say: "Allah is Christ the son of Mary." But said Christ: "O Children of Israel! worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Whoever joins other gods with Allah,- Allah will forbid him the Garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help. 73.They disbelieved who say: Allah is one of three (in a Trinity): for there is no god except One God. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous chastisement will befall the disbelievers among them.

This most certainly is an error, and one that I was not aware of, having not read the Koran in over a decade. The part I have underlined is what is wrong. Anyone, and I would presume that this would include the God you claim dictated the Koran, who understood Christianity at all would see that this is an error. God is not part of the Trinity, God is Trinity. There are no gods joined with God. God is one. I see that you are having a hard time understanding this but you will not get any help in understanding the Trinity from your Koran as Mohammed clearly didn't understand it either.

The Father was always God, the Son is eternally begotten (hence always God) from the Father and the Holy Spirit proceeds eternally (hence always God) from the Father. Neither Son nor Holy Spirit were created by God but they are integral parts of the nature of the one God. The Son was Incarnated, not begotten, as Christ. All three together are the Trinity, which is God and He is one. All three are also Divine in their own right but they are not separate individuals and hence cannot be classified as gods. Your charge of polytheism, then, is false and the Koran is in error.

James

 

[Booko]

You're right, Booko.

But I believe that both Christians and Muslims have taken other religion's scripture as well as their own out of context. I saw this many times at islam.com, and I often find it at this site here too.

Often they (either Christian or Muslim) would take small snippet here or there, and emphasise the meaning, without taking the whole consideration of the rest of the passages. When you ignore the surrounding texts, then you are taking snippet out of context, and the original passage loses its meaning.

It is bad habits from both parties.

Very true, though I think in some, if not even most cases, taking things out of context is more a mistake than a case of nefarious design. When dealing with religious texts in particular, there's a lot of background to be missed. Goodness knows I've posted some real doozies over the years, only to get corrected by someone.

 

[Booko]

The Father was always God, the Son is eternally begotten (hence always God) from the Father and the Holy Spirit proceeds eternally (hence always God) from the Father. Neither Son nor Holy Spirit were created by God but they are integral parts of the nature of the one God. The Son was Incarnated, not begotten, as Christ. All three together are the Trinity, which is God and He is one. All three are also Divine in their own right but they are not separate individuals and hence cannot be classified as gods. Your charge of polytheism, then, is false and the Koran is in error.

Please keep in mind that the Christians in Muhammad time and place were heretics. If the Qu'ran is "wrong" about the Trinity, well, so was Muhammad's audience. It doesn't necessarily make the Qu'ran wrong. I wouldn't expect Muhammad to address a Christian heretic and someone who was in the mainstream Church the same way, any more than I would.

 

[sojourner]

The Son was Incarnated, not begotten, as Christ.

James,
I enjoyed your post. I found it to be dead-on target. However, I have a question about something you said, which I've quoted here. My understanding was that the Orthodox accept the Nicene Creed (minus the Philioque clause). In it, as you know, is the phrase (referring to Christ), "begotten, not made, of one Being with the Father." Was this a typo on your part, or am I missing something? Did you mean to say, "was incarnated, not created...?"

 

[James the Persian]

James,
I enjoyed your post. I found it to be dead-on target. However, I have a question about something you said, which I've quoted here. My understanding was that the Orthodox accept the Nicene Creed (minus the Philioque clause). In it, as you know, is the phrase (referring to Christ), "begotten, not made, of one Being with the Father." Was this a typo on your part, or am I missing something? Did you mean to say, "was incarnated, not created...?"

No, I didn't make a mistake. God the Son was not begotten at the Incarnation of Christ but 'before all ages'. In other words I meant that God the Son was always God the Son even long before the Incarnation. I wouldn't raise this with another Christian as it is generally common knowledge (which is I hope why you misunderstood my intent, though maybe I wasn't very clear) but it is quite common to find Muslims arguing against a belief (which we do not hold to) that God the Son was begotten through the Theotokos at the Incarnation rather than being eternally begotten by the Father and only being Incarnated through the Theotokos. That misunderstanding is what I was hoping to head off. Sorry for any confusion.

James

 

[sojourner]

No, I didn't make a mistake. God the Son was not begotten at the Incarnation of Christ but 'before all ages'. In other words I meant that God the Son was always God the Son even long before the Incarnation. I wouldn't raise this with another Christian as it is generally common knowledge (which is I hope why you misunderstood my intent, though maybe I wasn't very clear) but it is quite common to find Muslims arguing against a belief (which we do not hold to) that God the Son was begotten through the Theotokos at the Incarnation rather than being eternally begotten by the Father and only being Incarnated through the Theotokos. That misunderstanding is what I was hoping to head off. Sorry for any confusion.

James

OK. That makes perfect sense, and it does explain why Muslims are confused on the Incarnation. The way the post read, it was a little misleading, sort of confusing the Incarnation with the begetting. Thanks for clearing that up, and pointing out clearly that the they are two separate processes.

 

[hanif]

muslim is not confused about incarnation.but your belief is confusing.
GOD HE BEGETTETH NOT NOR HE IS BEGOTTEN.
GOD IS DIFFERENT FROM EVERYTHING.BUT YOU SAY JESUS IS GOD.THIS IS SIMILAR TO BELIEF OF MITRAISM.
BUT GOD HAS NO CHILD HE IS UNEQUALLED.

 

[hanif]

If Mary Isnt God In The Christianity Why They Pray To Her.
If You Pray To Something It Is Your God.
So Koran Say Truth They Pray Jesus And Mary So They Are Their God.
God Is Exalted From Their Believe.

 

[michel]

If Mary Isnt God In The Christianity Why They Pray To Her.
If You Pray To Something It Is Your God.
So Koran Say Truth They Pray Jesus And Mary So They Are Their God.
God Is Exalted From Their Believe.

Hanif, I have just answered this exact question of yours in another thread; I will repeat what I said in that thread, for you.

This is from: http://www.davidmacd.com/catholic/ma...ray_to_her.htm

Catholics ask Mary to pray to Jesus for us. She is interceding, kind of in the way a pastor might pray for you or me. Even in the Rosary we ask Mary to "Pray for us sinners." And we think she is quite good at that.

Does that help?

 

[Quiddity]

Hanif, I have just answered this exact question of yours in another thread; I will repeat what I said in that thread, for you.

This is from: http://www.davidmacd.com/catholic/ma...ray_to_her.htm

Catholics ask Mary to pray to Jesus for us. She is interceding, kind of in the way a pastor might pray for you or me. Even in the Rosary we ask Mary to "Pray for us sinners." And we think she is quite good at that.

Does that help?

Thanks Michel...

 

[sojourner]

If Mary Isnt God In The Christianity Why They Pray To Her.
If You Pray To Something It Is Your God.
So Koran Say Truth They Pray Jesus And Mary So They Are Their God.
God Is Exalted From Their Believe.

Why do you insist upon telling us that we must believe in something (Mary is God), and then turn around in the next breath and tell us thatthe belief is wrong?

You're creating something out of whole cloth, just to trap us.

 

[hanif]

SOME MUSLIMS PRAY TO MUHAMMED FOR HE PRAY TO US.BUT IT IS WRONG.
MUHAMMED AND JESUS AND MARY CANT KNOW THE UNSEEN.SO THEY CANT HEARD OUR VOICE.ONLY GOD CAN HEAR
OUR NOICE.
3.Surely, the religion (i.e. the worship and the obedience) is for Allâh only. And those who take Auliyâ' (protectors and helpers) besides Him (say): "We worship them only that they may bring us near to Allâh." Verily, Allâh will judge between them concerning that wherein they differ. Truly, Allâh guides not him who is a liar, and a disbeliever.
18.And they worship besides Allâh things that hurt them not, nor profit them, and they say: "These are our intercessors with Allâh." Say: "Do you inform Allâh of that which He knows not in the heavens and on the earth?" Glorified and Exalted be He above all that which they associate as partners with Him!

 

[Mike182]

Hanif, in your belief system, jesus is only a prophet, not a God

if you want to debate our belief system, you must recognise that we believe Jesus is God.

there is no point debating our belief system from your point of view, debate it from ours or not at all.

 

[hanif]

trinity is something that is attributed to God.
However God is an existence that is compareable to nothing.

These are the Words of Allah:

Sura 112 Quran


1. Say (O Muhammad ()): "He is Allâh, (the) One.

2. "Allâh-us-Samad (The Self-Sufficient Master, Whom all creatures need, He neither eats nor drinks).

3. "He begets not, nor was He begotten;

4. "And there is none co-equal or comparable unto Him."