True and False Prophets - Just and Honest Determination

[Sumadji]

I mean -- this guy Baha'u'llah named himself the Glory of God and then he sat down and wrote a lot -- a LOT -- makes him authentic because Jesus didn't actually write anything down himself?

 

[Sumadji]

It's essential for Baha'i to piggyback off the Jesus narrative. They couldn't operate without referencing Jesus. Their supposed new Christ figure isn't anything without comparison to Jesus.

He isn't anything in comparison to Jesus either ... so

 

[Sumadji]

I'm not denying that Baha'u'llah was a good man and a brave one, and a charismatic individual and a persecuted figure. But that doesn't mean he was not also a self delusional self-proclaimed new messiah whose whole story doesn't convince many except his devotees..

 

[Pete in Panama]

Nonsense. Paul was the first Christian writer, his authentic letters before 65 ad and earlier. Do you dispute the authenticity or dating? Or transmission?

I don't know much. But I don't think you'd be in good company amongst NT scholars. I do know that much ...

whoa, that's GREAT! Could you please tell me where those original letters from Paul in his own hand writhing are kept? It'd be interesting to know what kind of paper/pen he used.

 

[Sumadji]

whoa, that's GREAT! Could you please tell me where those original letters from Paul in his own hand writhing are kept? It'd be interesting to know what kind of paper/pen he used.

You would need to consult the experts who do this sort of thing, who universally accept the scriptural authenticity and transmission of the letters attributed by experts to Paul himself

 

[Sumadji]

You can force me to chase down references. But essentially this is commonly accepted by the majority of NT experts to the best of my knowledge

 

[Sumadji]

Eventually the argument comes to because Baha'u'llah spent so much time writing down his thoughts makes him more authentic than Jesus -- or at least equally authentic

 

[Trailblazer]

My view is that for the Bible to be useful it has to have things that I don't understand yet, kind of like my textbook on differential equations. When I study the math text and come to a part that doesn't make any sense to me, I can't just throw out the book and say it's nonsense. That would mean I'd flunk the course and I wouldn't get a high paying job. The Bible's like that, lots of stuff that doesn't make sense to me and things I don't understand.

I understand that perspective. The Bible's like that, lots of stuff that doesn't make sense to me and things I don't understand.

I see it as my job to dig into the hard parts and what I got to do is MAKE sense of it, no matter how long it takes.

I guess I am different from you because I don't consider it my job to understand and make sense out of the Bible since it is not my holy book.
Heck, I haven't even read all of the Baha'i Writings and tried to understand them. I see that as my top priority.

As for the Bible, my view of it is that it was written for another age in history and it is no longer needed, now that we have the Revelation of Baha'u'llah. To add to that, the Bible is what is holding millions of people back from recognizing Baha'u'llah, so I see it as a detriment to individuals and to society.

 

[Trailblazer]

But you do believe in OT, NT and Qur'an to the extent that show that Bahaollah fulfilling the prophecies.
That done, you reject other things. That is like a horse wearing blinders.

No, it is not like a horse wearing blinders because there is no reason why all of the Bible has to be true just because some of the Bible is true.

Just because I believe that the Bible prophecies are true that does not mean that I believe the entire Bible is true.
To say that either the Bible is all true or it is all false, those being the only two options, is the all or nothing fallacy.

AI Overview
Learn more

The all or nothing fallacy (AON) is a type of false dilemma that occurs when someone presents only two options, when there are actually more. It's also known as black and white thinking, dichotomous thinking, absolutist thinking, or binary thinking.

Here are some examples of the all or nothing fallacy:

• "You can either eat the whole pie or none of it"

• "In this election, you have a clear choice to make: vote for Candidate A, or choose Candidate B

• "If you're not going to heaven, you must be going to you-know-where"

All-or-nothing thinking is a common cognitive distortion that can lead to seeing the world in extremes. It can negatively impact your experience and cause emotional turmoil. To manage all-or-nothing thinking, you can: Reassess your negative thoughts, Look for evidence that contradicts your thoughts, and Seek professional support.

 

[Trailblazer]

It's essential for Baha'i to piggyback off the Jesus narrative. They couldn't operate without referencing Jesus.

I have not heard anything funnier in my whole life. Baha'is don't need Jesus for anything since we have Baha'u'llah.
(Personally, I live Jesus, but that is another subject.)

Their supposed new Christ figure isn't anything without comparison to Jesus.

The hundred million dollar question is why you have to compare Baha'u'llah to Jesus.
The second hundred million dollar question is why one of them has to be superior to the other in your view.

Can you please answer these questions?

He isn't anything in comparison to Jesus either ... so

Two can play at this game. Baha'u'llah is the Greatest Name, so Jesus is nothing compared to Baha'u'llah.

 

[CG Didymus]

Great truths cannot be explained in words, but in symbols. The crucifixion of Christ is a powerful symbol, that I believe really happened.

Is that the only powerful symbol in Abrahamic and monotheist religions? What about Muhammad visiting heaven and meeting Jesus or Bahaollah having a vision of a heavenly maiden? Or Ahur Mazda instructing Zoroaster?

The Creation story, the Flood, the parting of the seas, David and Goliath and unto the NT with the virgin birth to Jesus walking on water and casting out demons and to the resurrection... all powerful symbols... if true.

The Baha'i Faith makes a lot of those things fictional. How powerful are any of those stories if they didn't really happen?

Those of us that doubt Christianity do that. We say it was all myth... taking all the power away from those Christians that keep telling us that the Bible is the inerrant "Word of God"... And that Jesus is the only way.

If the Christians are right, then I'm in big trouble. But so are a lot of other people, and, I think, even the Baha'is. Baha'is, by making those stories fictional, they are denying Jesus as bad as I do. But they don't think they are, because they say that "no", they love Jesus and love his teachings. But that Jesus, they "love" may very well be fictional. It is a make believe Jesus created by the Baha'i prophets.

Of course maybe the Baha'i Faith is true. But then, I'd have to believe that God let every single religion in the world get corrupted and misunderstood. And a big part of the problem was because this all-knowing God didn't have his manifestation write down the spiritual teachings himself... not until Baha'u'llah.

 

[Trailblazer]

I'm not denying that Baha'u'llah was a good man and a brave one, and a charismatic individual and a persecuted figure. But that doesn't mean he was not also a self delusional self-proclaimed new messiah

I could just as easily say that Jesus was a self delusional self-proclaimed messiah, since there is no more proof that Jesus was a messiah than there is proof that Baha'u'llah was a new messiah. In fact, there is less proof for Jesus since all we have are what men wrote about Jesus decades after Jesus lived. What we have for Baha'u'llah is a chronicled history of His life and mission and Writings that were penned in His own hand.

whose whole story doesn't convince many except his devotees..

The story of Jesus only convinced a few of His devotees in the beginning.

“When Christ appeared He manifested Himself at Jerusalem. He called men to the Kingdom of God, He invited them to Eternal Life and He told them to acquire human perfections. The Light of Guidance was shed forth by that radiant Star, and He at length gave His life in sacrifice for humanity.

All through His blessed life He suffered oppression and hardship, and in spite of all this humanity was His enemy!

They denied Him, scorned Him, ill-treated Him and cursed Him. He was not treated like a man—and yet in spite of all this He was the embodiment of pity and of supreme goodness and love……..

It was not until many years after His ascension that they knew who He was, and at the time of His ascension He had only a very few disciples; only a comparatively small following believed His precepts and followed His laws. The ignorant said, ‘Who is this individual; He has only a few disciples!’ But those who knew said: ‘He is the Sun who will shine in the East and in the West, He is the Manifestation who shall give life to the world’.

What the first disciples had seen the world realized later.”

Bahá'í Reference Library - Paris Talks, Pages 116-118

When Jesus walked the earth, and for many years after that, only a few recognized Him for who He was, so Jesus was the narrow gate that leads to life.

Matthew 7:13-14 Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

Now, history repeats itself, and Baha'u'llah is the narrow gate that leads to life.

“The Book of God is wide open, and His Word is summoning mankind unto Him. No more than a mere handful, however, hath been found willing to cleave to His Cause, or to become the instruments for its promotion. These few have been endued with the Divine Elixir that can, alone, transmute into purest gold the dross of the world, and have been empowered to administer the infallible remedy for all the ills that afflict the children of men. No man can obtain everlasting life, unless he embraceth the truth of this inestimable, this wondrous, and sublime Revelation.”

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 183-184

 

[Trailblazer]

If the Christians are right, then I'm in big trouble.

If Christians are right then 2/3 of the world population are in big trouble...

If Baha'is are right, then Christians are in big trouble, especially the Christians who know all about Baha'u'llah yet have rejected Him.
Those Christians know who they are so there is no need for me to identify them.

 

[Sumadji]

Christ is Tipareth
Christ is the heart

 

[Trailblazer]

Baha'is, by making those stories fictional, they are denying Jesus as bad as I do.

No, Baha'is are not denying Jesus just because we deny the fictitious stories that were written about Jesus by men.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

If the Christians are right, then I'm in big trouble. But so are a lot of other people, and, I think, even the Baha'is.

I consider Pascal's wager to be a very weak argument used by Christians because I think the same can be said of every other religion. I feel the same way about the No True Scotsman fallacy, which some Christians also use to discredit and even belittle other Christians whom they dislike and disagree with.

 

[CG Didymus]

it's easier to just say Bible-word-of-God to an orthodox Christian so we can speed forward.

Move forward to what? At some point the Baha'i is going to have to go back and tell the Christian how much of the Bible and NT that the Baha'is don't take as being literally true.

The gospel includes an interchange where Jesus was explaining to Nicodemus that we have to be "born again" in a spiritual sense, not literal. So even the Bible itself makes it clear that parts are figurative and not literal. The thing about knowing which is which is our job.

Except... many of the times, it tells you... this is a parable... Jesus was talking symbolically. One of my main arguments with Baha'is is why they make the resurrection story symbolic? They might say, "Because we know, scientifically, that it can't be literal." Yes, now we know that. Did people know that 2000 years ago?

The story is told as if it was all true. For me, if it's not, then why can't it just be a fictional, made up story to made Jesus into a God?

That's a good approach that many share.

That's not all that good of an approach. Why not try to understand the Scriptures of another religion in the way the followers of that religion believe them?

We might still think they are wrong and not being rational in their thinking. Especially when people in some religions believe in things like a human flying off into space. Or that a wooden walking staff turned into a snake.

Some of us are always going to have a problem with people that believe in things that they can't see and can't prove... Like those religious people that believe there is a God but can't see him or prove that he exists. That can sound so irrational and unscientific to some people.

You had a lot of nice quotes but correct me if I missed it but nowhere did I see Baha'u'llah, Abdul'baha, or Shoghi Effendi explicitly say that the Bible was not the word of God.

That's because it is you that said...

Huh. It's my understanding that a core Baha'i belief is that the Bible is the Word of God.

I said that Baha'is contradict the Bible and the NT. And here's where I said it...

Yet, it is the Baha'is that are the ones contradicting the Bible and the NT sometimes.

And then I mention one of them, the resurrection. And here's where I say that...

The main one I complain about is the resurrection.

Then there's Baha'u'llah saying that it was Ishmael, not Isaac, taken by Abraham to be sacrificed.

Those sound like contradictions to me.

Let's come together on the fact that things change and sometimes change is hard to follow. The original stories in the first 5 OT books --later said to have been written by Moses himself, were passed around the campfire for many centuries before they were ever written down. The earliest text of the New Testament we got was written 500 years after Christ. The Quran was compiled by those who later were deemed covenant breakers and none of it was written by Mohammad's own hand. Even the text of Baha'u'llah was never written in English but in Arabic or Persian and later translated.

Those things make me think that none of them are the "Word" of God, but the "words" of men about their God and about their prophets.

Yet we still have the Word of God

Now when some Christians say they believe that the Bible is the "Word of God", I believe them to be saying it is inerrant and infallible. I don't think Baha'is believe that. Would that be correct? And, if so, why call it "The Word of God".

And, if Baha'u'llah or any of the other Baha'is leaders say that believing the Bible is a "core" belief of the Baha'i Faith, I think they are being misleading. But, if you want to post a quote where they say that, go ahead.

 

[Trailblazer]

For me, it's easier to just say Bible-word-of-God to an orthodox Christian so we can speed forward.

For me, it's easier to just say I do not believe that the Bible is the Word of God to a Christian so we can speed forward.

 

[Trailblazer]

Of course maybe the Baha'i Faith is true. But then, I'd have to believe that God let every single religion in the world get corrupted and misunderstood. And a big part of the problem was because this all-knowing God didn't have his manifestation write down the spiritual teachings himself... not until Baha'u'llah.

Makes perfect sense to me.
God is all-knowing so God knew religions would get corrupted by man, but that was not an issue for God, since God also knew that He would be sending Baha'u'llah in the future to straighten everything out.

 

[CG Didymus]

I consider Pascal's wager to be a very weak argument used by Christians because I think the same can be said of every other religion. I feel the same way about the No True Scotsman fallacy, which some Christians also use to discredit and even belittle other Christians whom they dislike and disagree with.

Yeah, my family were Catholics. There was so much fear built into their teachings. Does a kid dare not go to Church on Sunday? It's a mortal sin, and they'd go straight to hell if they die. And when the kid did commit a mortal sin, they better get to Church and confess their sins right away.

I was so afraid that while sitting in the pew, I wouldn't put my feet on the floor... thinking that it floor would open up and I'd slide right on down into hell.

As you can probably tell, now I don't trust what any religion says. But I do believe most all religions can have a positive effect on people... But, for some people, they just get too extreme in their beliefs.