True and False Prophets - Just and Honest Determination

[TransmutingSoul]

You did exactly as he suggested. He wrote, "But like with what happened with homosexuality... When people quoted the Baha'i teachings, Baha'is had to do some quick thinking to try and not look like homophobics" and you immediately deflected away from yourselves back to him.

Homophobia isn't a splinter. It's a giant sequoia. You marginalize and demonize a large law-abiding segment of society based in nothing more than the belief that some god nobody ever sees disapproves of them for reasons never given - people trying to support themselves and their families and serving their communities just like their straight neighbors whose churches call them sinners who offend their god.

If you choose to label a God given law as predudice, and label people that choose to follow that law as predudice, that is your prerogative.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

There's that claim again. Can you back it up? Were Adam, Noah, Abraham, and Moses known for being virtuous and highly moral?

I don't make that claim because I cannot back it up.
We don't really know that much about these prophets since Baha'u'llah did not write that much about them

Adam disobeyed God. Noah got drunk. Abraham lied about his wife. And Moses killed an Egyptian.

Only if you believe the Bible stories. Count me out.

The Bible doesn't show them as being "perfect". And why would they need to be, because the Bible doesn't make them into what Baha'is call "manifestations of God".

I could not care less what the Bible says since it is not my holy book.
See how easy that was?

But I am not saying that all of them were perfect or that all of them were manifestations of God because all prophets were not manifestations of God.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

If they are trustworthy or truthful, what they tell you will not be untruthful.

In the context of this conversation, it seems like you're trying to imply that if a person is exceptionally honest, they can see the future. Is this what you're trying to say?

 

[Pete in Panama]

To investigate if Jesus is the promised Messiah we should use the OT scriptures. That is the only way to do it. It is the same with investigating the truth of Baha'u'llah's claims.

What I'm seeing is that it all ties together. In Mathew 23 the disciples were asking Jesus about his return and he said to look in Daniel where the "abomination that makes desolate" is mentioned.

If Baha'u'llah is not the one prophesied then he is not the one prophesied and should not be believed.

Right, this should not be a contest of one side being right and the other being wrong. This should be an investigation where we all look and then everyone's right together and in agreement.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

In the context of this conversation, it seems like you're trying to imply that if a person is exceptionally honest, they can see the future. Is this what you're trying to say?

That is what you are trying to say.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

Don't worry, I'll take over for you and explain to him.

Thanks CG.

You see... Mirza Ghulam Ahmad is a lying imposter... a false prophet. Just because he has more followers than Baha'u'llah means nothing. He was not the Mahdi, and he was not the return of Jesus. That is impossible, because the Bab and Baha'u'llah were the true returns of those people.

True.

That is... If they were telling the truth. And that's why we're here arguing and debating about the claims of the Baha'i Faith... Can they be shown to be true?

Those claims can never be shown to be true, if by shown you mean proven.
We can only prove them to ourselves in which case we believe they are true.

And it doesn't help their cause when they reject someone for the same reasons some of us reject their prophets.

The reasons are not the same, even if you think they are.

 

[CG Didymus]

Why would we ever think that there's some threshold of moral goodness where, if a person exceeds it, their claims about the future become reliable?

Person X is much more moral and virtuous than an average person.
- therefore, ______.
- therefore, Person X can reliably predict the future (i.e. make real prophecies).

I think they are trying to say he was so moral and so virtuous that he can be trusted. And because he is trustworthy, we can trust him when he tells us there is a God, and that he was sent by God, and then he tells us what will happen, and what we must do, that we should believe him.

Trouble is... I don't trust what he says about himself, God and what he tells us we must do.

For instance... Yeah, peace and love sounds nice... But that all the nations must disarm? I don't even trust my nation to do that. And we here in the U.S. are the supposed "good guys." I can't imagine what the "bad" guys are going to do?

 

[CG Didymus]

The so-called messengers and prophets are not morally superior according to my humanist values. Talking about gods and pontificating on piety is not moral behavior.

And that's a problem with religions... Their people and leaders have to appear as being moral... but in a lot of cases, they aren't.

Which religion has been successful in getting their people to live up to their laws, supposedly from God, about being perfect and chaste?

 

[CG Didymus]

My goal is simply a search for truth.

Really? You are still searching for the truth?

I thought you already knew the truth? That the Baha'i Faith is the truth from God.

And if that's true, then why wouldn't your goal be to share that truth with others? And correct their misunderstandings that they may have about the truth about God and religion?

 

[CG Didymus]

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad is a lying imposter... a false prophet. Just because he has more followers than Baha'u'llah means nothing. He was not the Mahdi, and he was not the return of Jesus. That is impossible, because the Bab and Baha'u'llah were the true returns of those people.

That is... If they were telling the truth. And that's why we're here arguing and debating about the claims of the Baha'i Faith... Can they be shown to be true?

For the believers in each, they see the truth in what their guy says, and the lies in what the other guy says.

And it doesn't help their cause when they reject someone for the same reasons some of us reject their prophets.

It's at least similar. A Baha'i has to reject Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, because he's claiming to be things that the Baha'is believe about their prophets.

But for people in the other religions, they could look at the claims of Baha'u'llah and say that he is a lying imposter, because the "true" return is supposed to be this guy, or the real person is supposed to do this or that... And the Baha'i prophet didn't do those things.

 

[CG Didymus]

If you choose to label a God given law as predudice, and label people that choose to follow that law as predudice, that is your prerogative.

Regards Tony

Not for you, but some of us question whether there is a God. Even Baha'is can't prove that there is. So... what if there isn't? Then where did these laws come from?

For believers in God, they believe those laws are true and absolute. But, if God is not real, then those laws came from some guy claiming he spoke with God. And there's been lots of people claiming they have spoken to God.

Like I'd hate to have been the last person stoned to death for breaking the Sabbath when the next day it was no longer "God's" law, or at least no longer enforced.

 

[Pete in Panama]

Really? You are still searching for the truth?

I thought you already knew the truth?

Huh, I don't remember saying that and I'd never want to say that but can you point out one of my posts where I said that?

That the Baha'i Faith is the truth from God.

Yes, and Christianity is the truth from God and Judaism is the truth from God --it's what we've been saying that the religions agree and are one.

And if that's true, then why wouldn't your goal be to share that truth with others? And correct their misunderstandings that they may have about the truth about God and religion?

That part is hard to reconcile w/ what I just said. However before you go into some rant about Christians killing Jews and Jews killing Baha'is, please consider that there's a difference between a religion and its followers, that often groups of followers split over doctrine, that even while the original teaching can be perfect that the followers are mortal and imperfect.

At the same time, the followers are still good and as Voltaire said "perfection is the enemy of the good". The vast majority of the Christians don't kill Jews and the vast majority of the Jews do not kill Baha'is and as a whole they're all good.

 

[Pete in Panama]

Why was that your "understanding"?

Then you asked for my thoughts?

This takes us to a very important consideration. Just what is your understand and just what are your thoughts about beliefs? Looks, I'm not trying to put you on the spot, I'm always asking folks what their beliefs are, my hope is that maybe I'll hear a belief that I hadn't considered that can be appropriate. Please share.

 

[CG Didymus]

My goal is simply a search for truth.

Huh, I don't remember saying that and I'd never want to say that but can you point out one of my posts where I said that?

The way you worded that makes it sound like you are still searching for truth, but don't you believe you have found the truth in the Baha'i Faith?

 

[Pete in Panama]

The way you worded that makes it sound like you are still searching for truth, but don't you believe you have found the truth in the Baha'i Faith?

For me the phrase "search for the truth" means that I don't yet "know the truth", so I don't see where you got the idea that I believed that I knew the truth. Maybe you've run into others who said they knew the truth and you decided that all my kind were alike, or maybe an infinite number of other possibilities. The problem we got is that you're not saying what you believe and what your understanding is. That prevents us from connecting because you'll always be able to say "where did I say that?" when I assume what you believe.

It's better when you say what you believe. If you don't believe anything then you can say that.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes, and Christianity is the truth from God

Are these four major tenets of Christianity the truth from God?

1. Jesus is God in the flesh.
2. Jesus is the only way to God. There is no other way to God and there never will be.
3. Jesus rose from the grave in a physical body.
4. Jesus is going to return to this world (Second Coming).

They cannot be the truth from God if the Baha'i Faith is the truth from God because all of them contradict the Baha'i Faith beliefs.