True and False Prophets - Just and Honest Determination

[TransmutingSoul]

And chapter 14 starts with... "Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads..."

Are Baha'is still claiming this "Lamb" is the Bab and not Jesus? Is it obviously about one or the other?

It is not obviously about one or the other, but I think it is about Jesus in that verse, since it says his Father’s name. Jesus is the Son and God is the Father.

I see this is about the Bab and Jesus, they were both Lambs, the Bab can be seen as "One like unto the Son of Man" as both Jesus and the Bab shared similar life stories, events in faith and sacrificed their life for God's given cause.

The 144,000 is a key to the end of ages. 144,000 reverts to "9" and as you are aware, 9 has some significance in the Baha'i Faith.

His name was the Bab, the Father's name was Baha'u'llah! Mt Zion in this space was Mt Carmel. That is what I see in that passage.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

What do you call WWI and WWII? Those wars were bad, but there could be more bad stuff to come.

The following was written during WWII.

"A tempest, unprecedented in its violence, unpredictable in its course, catastrophic in its immediate effects, unimaginably glorious in its ultimate consequences, is at present sweeping the face of the earth. Its driving power is remorselessly gaining in range and momentum. Its cleansing force, however much undetected, is increasing with every passing day. Humanity, gripped in the clutches of its devastating power, is smitten by the evidences of its resistless fury. It can neither perceive its origin, nor probe its significance, nor discern its outcome. Bewildered, agonized and helpless, it watches this great and mighty wind of God invading the remotest and fairest regions of the earth, rocking its foundations, deranging its equilibrium, sundering its nations, disrupting the homes of its peoples, wasting its cities, driving into exile its kings, pulling down its bulwarks, uprooting its institutions, dimming its light, and harrowing up the souls of its inhabitants."

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Promised Day Is Come, Pages 3-4

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"The Promised Day is Come" was written on March 28, 1941.

Explanation: This is a significant letter in the Baha'i faith, penned by Shoghi Effendi, the leader at the time, specifically addressed to the Baha'is of the West.

Shoghi Effendi does mention another world conflict, I would have to find that for you, unless you can find it? I am building at the moment, as well as work, so not much spare time.

All the best, Regards Tony

 

[Link]

Salam

The biggest problem with Bahai Faith is their notion of the day of judgment. It does not make sense.

For example, the Quran says the unjust ones will fear the punishment on that day but it will be coming to them and no averting it. This while in this world, they do no fear punishment, and Quran shows who fears God in this world will be in paradise in the next.

The Quran also says when the event occurs, there will be no denial of it's occurrence. And has said there will be no possibility/room for denial on that day. It's a day everyone will acknowledge. People will be in submission that day, but it will not benefit them if their deeds in this world were evil.

Also, it borrowed the general concept of Messengers from Sunnis which Shias also were bullied to accepting and didn't reflect over what Quran says about it and followed some false Shia hadiths that confirmed Sunni viewpoint.

Imam Ali (a) to Imam Mahdi (a) are all Messengers, what they are not - Nabis. They don't receive a divine newspaper from God to be delivered to the people. The Quran never says the Quran is upon Mohammad (s). It rather it says it's upon God. Mohammad (S) of course channels it, but it's God's words.

The message however is Mohammad's (s) words, the message is from God and taught by God, but Mohammad (s) puts into his own words.

There is also the fact that Messengers always come in groups. The founder is succeeded by Twelve Successors but that didn't happen in Bahai Faith. Also, Bab and Baha'allah are not related biologically which breaks a foundational message in Quran.

Blood is not important really except that God uses it so there be less false claimants. That means, for example, after Ali (a), to contest Hassan (a), it has to be a biological son of Ali (a). That would be difficult considering Fatima (a) and the need to be from her offspring. But say after Ali son of Hussain (a). It's a limited amount of people who can falsely claim succession.

But Baha'allah broke this rule that is very important in Quran, and supposedly succeeded the Bab who has no biological link or closeness.

 

[Trailblazer]

The biggest problem with Bahai Faith is their notion of the day of judgment. It does not make sense.

For example, the Quran says the unjust ones will fear the punishment on that day but it will be coming to them and no averting it.

Below is what Baha'u'llah said about Judgement Day. On that day all people will get what is coming to them and there will be no averting it.

“Know ye that the world and its vanities and its embellishments shall pass away. Nothing will endure except God’s Kingdom which pertaineth to none but Him, the Sovereign Lord of all, the Help in Peril, the All-Glorious, the Almighty. The days of your life shall roll away, and all the things with which ye are occupied and of which ye boast yourselves shall perish, and ye shall, most certainly, be summoned by a company of His angels to appear at the spot where the limbs of the entire creation shall be made to tremble, and the flesh of every oppressor to creep. Ye shall be asked of the things your hands have wrought in this, your vain life, and shall be repaid for your doings. This is the day that shall inevitably come upon you, the hour that none can put back. To this the Tongue of Him that speaketh the truth and is the Knower of all things hath testified.”

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 122-125

On Judgement Day all people will get what is coming to them and there will be no excuses accepted.

“Suffer not yourselves to be wrapt in the dense veils of your selfish desires, inasmuch as I have perfected in every one of you My creation, so that the excellence of My handiwork may be fully revealed unto men. It follows, therefore, that every man hath been, and will continue to be, able of himself to appreciate the Beauty of God, the Glorified. Had he not been endowed with such a capacity, how could he be called to account for his failure? If, in the Day when all the peoples of the earth will be gathered together, any man should, whilst standing in the presence of God, be asked: “Wherefore hast thou disbelieved in My Beauty and turned away from My Self,” and if such a man should reply and say: “Inasmuch as all men have erred, and none hath been found willing to turn his face to the Truth, I, too, following their example, have grievously failed to recognize the Beauty of the Eternal,” such a plea will, assuredly, be rejected. For the faith of no man can be conditioned by any one except himself.”

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 143-144

This while in this world, they do no fear punishment, and Quran shows who fears God in this world will be in paradise in the next.

Regarding fear of God, Baha'is beliefs are no different than what it says in the Qur'an.

"But while God is repeatedly described as full of love, grace, and bounty in the Baha’i Faith, dozens of passages also emphasize the importance of the “fear of God.” Baha’u’llah exhorts us to “fear God” or have the “fear of God” more than a dozen times in the Kitab-i-Aqdas (known as the Most Holy Book) alone, and in various places He describes the fear of God as “the essence of wisdom,”2 “the fountain-head of all goodly deeds and virtues,”3 “the weapon that can render him victorious” and “the primary instrument whereby he can achieve his purpose.”4"

The Fear of God. What Does It Mean? | Baha'i Blog

When reading prayers revealed by the Central Figures of the Baha’i Faith, you quickly notice that nearly every prayer ends with a list of the names and attributes of God. He is described as the “All-Merciful,” the “Ever-Forgiving,” the “Lord of bounty,” the “Provider of all mankind,” and with...

www.bahaiblog.net

“Arise, O wayfarer in the path of the Love of God, and aid thou His Cause. Say: Barter not away this Youth, O people, for the vanities of this world or the delights of heaven. ……. Say: O people! Fear ye God, and turn not away disdainfully from His Revelation. Fall prostrate on your faces before God, and celebrate His praise in the daytime and in the night season.” Gleanings, p. 38

“Lay not aside the fear of God, O ye the learned of the world, and judge fairly the Cause of this unlettered One to Whom all the Books of God, the Protector, the Self-Subsisting, have testified.…Will not the dread of Divine displeasure, the fear of Him Who hath no peer or equal, arouse you.” Gleanings, p. 98

“Say: O people! Withhold not from yourselves the grace of God and His mercy. Whoso withholdeth himself therefrom is indeed in grievous loss. What, O people! Do ye worship the dust, and turn away from your Lord, the Gracious, the All-Bountiful? Fear ye God, and be not of those who perish.”
Gleanings, pp. 104-105

“Set before thine eyes God’s unerring Balance and, as one standing in His Presence, weigh in that Balance thine actions every day, every moment of thy life. Bring thyself to account ere thou art summoned to a reckoning, on the Day when no man shall have strength to stand for fear of God, the Day when the hearts of the heedless ones shall be made to tremble.” Gleanings, p. 236

“Beware not to deal unjustly with any one that appealeth to you, and entereth beneath your shadow. Walk ye in the fear of God, and be ye of them that lead a godly life.” Gleanings, p. 251

“Walk ye in the fear of God, and render not your works vain. Incline your ears to His words, and be not of them that are shut out as by a veil from Him.” Gleanings, p. 256

“He should cleanse his heart from all evil passions and corrupt desires, for the fear of God is the weapon that can render him victorious, the primary instrument whereby he can achieve his purpose. The fear of God is the shield that defendeth His Cause, the buckler that enableth His people to attain to victory. It is a standard that no man can abase, a force that no power can rival. By its aid, and by the leave of Him Who is the Lord of Hosts, they that have drawn nigh unto God have been able to subdue and conquer the citadels of the hearts of men.”
Gleanings, p. 272

“Cleanse from your hearts the love of worldly things, from your tongues every remembrance except His remembrance, from your entire being whatsoever may deter you from beholding His face, or may tempt you to follow the promptings of your evil and corrupt inclinations. Let God be your fear, O people, and be ye of them that tread the path of righteousness.”
Gleanings, p. 275

“Say: Fear God, O people, and refrain from shedding the blood of any one. Contend not with your neighbor, and be ye of them that do good. Beware that ye commit no disorders on the earth after it hath been well ordered, and follow not the footsteps of them that are gone astray.”
Gleanings, p. 277

“The first word which the Abhá Pen hath revealed and inscribed on the first leaf of Paradise is this: “Verily I say: The fear of God hath ever been a sure defence and a safe stronghold for all the peoples of the world. It is the chief cause of the protection of mankind, and the supreme instrument for its preservation. Indeed, there existeth in man a faculty which deterreth him from, and guardeth him against, whatever is unworthy and unseemly, and which is known as his sense of shame. This, however, is confined to but a few; all have not possessed, and do not possess, it.”
Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 27

 

[Link]

Below is what Baha'u'llah said about the day of judgment. On that day all people will get what is coming to them and there will be no averting it.

“Know ye that the world and its vanities and its embellishments shall pass away. Nothing will endure except God’s Kingdom which pertaineth to none but Him, the Sovereign Lord of all, the Help in Peril, the All-Glorious, the Almighty. The days of your life shall roll away, and all the things with which ye are occupied and of which ye boast yourselves shall perish, and ye shall, most certainly, be summoned by a company of His angels to appear at the spot where the limbs of the entire creation shall be made to tremble, and the flesh of every oppressor to creep. Ye shall be asked of the things your hands have wrought in this, your vain life, and shall be repaid for your doings. This is the day that shall inevitably come upon you, the hour that none can put back. To this the Tongue of Him that speaketh the truth and is the Knower of all things hath testified.”

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 122-125

On Judgement Day all people will get what is coming to them and there will be no excuses accepted, such as "I just followed others' example."

“Suffer not yourselves to be wrapt in the dense veils of your selfish desires, inasmuch as I have perfected in every one of you My creation, so that the excellence of My handiwork may be fully revealed unto men. It follows, therefore, that every man hath been, and will continue to be, able of himself to appreciate the Beauty of God, the Glorified. Had he not been endowed with such a capacity, how could he be called to account for his failure? If, in the Day when all the peoples of the earth will be gathered together, any man should, whilst standing in the presence of God, be asked: “Wherefore hast thou disbelieved in My Beauty and turned away from My Self,” and if such a man should reply and say: “Inasmuch as all men have erred, and none hath been found willing to turn his face to the Truth, I, too, following their example, have grievously failed to recognize the Beauty of the Eternal,” such a plea will, assuredly, be rejected. For the faith of no man can be conditioned by any one except himself.”

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 143-144

Regarding fear of God, Baha'is beliefs are no different than what it says in the Qur'an.

"But while God is repeatedly described as full of love, grace, and bounty in the Baha’i Faith, dozens of passages also emphasize the importance of the “fear of God.” Baha’u’llah exhorts us to “fear God” or have the “fear of God” more than a dozen times in the Kitab-i-Aqdas (known as the Most Holy Book) alone, and in various places He describes the fear of God as “the essence of wisdom,”2 “the fountain-head of all goodly deeds and virtues,”3 “the weapon that can render him victorious” and “the primary instrument whereby he can achieve his purpose.”4"

The Fear of God. What Does It Mean? | Baha'i Blog

When reading prayers revealed by the Central Figures of the Baha’i Faith, you quickly notice that nearly every prayer ends with a list of the names and attributes of God. He is described as the “All-Merciful,” the “Ever-Forgiving,” the “Lord of bounty,” the “Provider of all mankind,” and with...

www.bahaiblog.net

“Arise, O wayfarer in the path of the Love of God, and aid thou His Cause. Say: Barter not away this Youth, O people, for the vanities of this world or the delights of heaven. ……. Say: O people! Fear ye God, and turn not away disdainfully from His Revelation. Fall prostrate on your faces before God, and celebrate His praise in the daytime and in the night season.” Gleanings, p. 38

“Lay not aside the fear of God, O ye the learned of the world, and judge fairly the Cause of this unlettered One to Whom all the Books of God, the Protector, the Self-Subsisting, have testified.…Will not the dread of Divine displeasure, the fear of Him Who hath no peer or equal, arouse you.” Gleanings, p. 98

“Say: O people! Withhold not from yourselves the grace of God and His mercy. Whoso withholdeth himself therefrom is indeed in grievous loss. What, O people! Do ye worship the dust, and turn away from your Lord, the Gracious, the All-Bountiful? Fear ye God, and be not of those who perish.”
Gleanings, pp. 104-105

“Set before thine eyes God’s unerring Balance and, as one standing in His Presence, weigh in that Balance thine actions every day, every moment of thy life. Bring thyself to account ere thou art summoned to a reckoning, on the Day when no man shall have strength to stand for fear of God, the Day when the hearts of the heedless ones shall be made to tremble.” Gleanings, p. 236

“Beware not to deal unjustly with any one that appealeth to you, and entereth beneath your shadow. Walk ye in the fear of God, and be ye of them that lead a godly life.” Gleanings, p. 251

“Walk ye in the fear of God, and render not your works vain. Incline your ears to His words, and be not of them that are shut out as by a veil from Him.” Gleanings, p. 256

“He should cleanse his heart from all evil passions and corrupt desires, for the fear of God is the weapon that can render him victorious, the primary instrument whereby he can achieve his purpose. The fear of God is the shield that defendeth His Cause, the buckler that enableth His people to attain to victory. It is a standard that no man can abase, a force that no power can rival. By its aid, and by the leave of Him Who is the Lord of Hosts, they that have drawn nigh unto God have been able to subdue and conquer the citadels of the hearts of men.”
Gleanings, p. 272

“Cleanse from your hearts the love of worldly things, from your tongues every remembrance except His remembrance, from your entire being whatsoever may deter you from beholding His face, or may tempt you to follow the promptings of your evil and corrupt inclinations. Let God be your fear, O people, and be ye of them that tread the path of righteousness.”
Gleanings, p. 275

“Say: Fear God, O people, and refrain from shedding the blood of any one. Contend not with your neighbor, and be ye of them that do good. Beware that ye commit no disorders on the earth after it hath been well ordered, and follow not the footsteps of them that are gone astray.”
Gleanings, p. 277

“The first word which the Abhá Pen hath revealed and inscribed on the first leaf of Paradise is this: “Verily I say: The fear of God hath ever been a sure defence and a safe stronghold for all the peoples of the world. It is the chief cause of the protection of mankind, and the supreme instrument for its preservation. Indeed, there existeth in man a faculty which deterreth him from, and guardeth him against, whatever is unworthy and unseemly, and which is known as his sense of shame. This, however, is confined to but a few; all have not possessed, and do not possess, it.”
Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 27

All that does not solve the contradiction I pointed out.

 

[Trailblazer]

All that does not solve the contradiction I pointed out.

What contradiction?

 

[Link]

What contradiction?

Fearing and not fearing. It's one or the other. If day of judgment pertains to this world you get that contradiction since Quran says unjust people will fear God (in this world as per Bahai Faith there is always a day of judgment on earth) but they won't be able to avert the punishment despite fearing it, while other verses show whoever fears God (in this world) will be in paradise.

So there needs to be a distinction that day of judgment is not pertaining to life of this world and that it's too late to believe and fear scenario on day of judgment, while in this world, if you fear God and believe, it will benefit you in the next per Quran.

 

[Brian2]

So, that takes us back to the start... How do we know if their prophet is really telling the truth? Is he the promised Messiah?

Sincere people get deceived by scammers, lying politicians, the lusts and desires of the world (which people run after in this life) false philosophies, false prophets etc all the time and others get confused by the number of contradicting lies out there and just give up.

 

[Brian2]

What Baha'is say has happened is not a belief, it is a fact that is chronicled in Baha'i history.

There is nothing in the history about Baha'u'llah raising the dead and judging the world and ruling on his throne. It is no more than Baha'i claims.

According to the Bahá’í teaching the Resurrection has nothing to do with the gross physical body. That body, once dead, is done with. It becomes decomposed and its atoms will never be recomposed into the same body.

And the Baha'i teaching contradicts the Biblical teaching.

 

[Trailblazer]

Fearing and not fearing. It's one or the other. If day of judgment pertains to this world you get that contradiction since Quran says unjust people will fear God (in this world as per Bahai Faith there is always a day of judgment on earth) but they won't be able to avert the punishment despite fearing it, while other verses show whoever fears God (in this world) will be in paradise.

So there needs to be a distinction that day of judgment is not pertaining to life of this world and that it's too late to believe and fear scenario on day of judgment, while in this world, if you fear God and believe, it will benefit you in the next per Quran.

In the Baha'i Faith, the day of judgment pertains to this world in the following sense.
Since we recognize the Manifestation of God while we are living in this world, the day of judgment begins in this world.

“In the Bahá’í interpretation, the coming of each Manifestation of God is a Day of Judgment, but the coming of the supreme Manifestation of Bahá’u’lláh is the great Day of Judgment for the world cycle in which we are living. The trumpet blast of which Christ and Muhammad and many other prophets speak is the call of the Manifestation, which is sounded for all who are in heaven and on earth—the embodied and the disembodied. The meeting with God, through His Manifestation, is, for those who desire to meet Him, the gateway to the Paradise of knowing and loving Him, and living in love with all His creatures. Those, on the other hand, who prefer their own way to God’s way, as revealed by the Manifestation, thereby consign themselves to the hell of selfishness, error and enmity.”

Bahá'í Reference Library - Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, Pages 219-220

However, the day of judgment culminates when we are judged by God in the next world, and we will be judged by what we did in this world.

Thus the following passages:

"... in the Day when all the peoples of the earth will be gathered together, any man should, whilst standing in the presence of God, be asked: “Wherefore hast thou disbelieved in My Beauty and turned away from My Self,” and if such a man should reply and say: “Inasmuch as all men have erred, and none hath been found willing to turn his face to the Truth, I, too, following their example, have grievously failed to recognize the Beauty of the Eternal,” such a plea will, assuredly, be rejected."
Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 143-144

And

"... ye shall, most certainly, be summoned by a company of His angels to appear at the spot where the limbs of the entire creation shall be made to tremble, and the flesh of every oppressor to creep. Ye shall be asked of the things your hands have wrought in this, your vain life, and shall be repaid for your doings. This is the day that shall inevitably come upon you, the hour that none can put back.”
Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 122-125

 

[Link]

In the Baha'i Faith, the day of judgment pertains to this world in the following sense.
Since we recognize the Manifestation of God while we are living in this world, the day of judgment begins in this world.

“In the Bahá’í interpretation, the coming of each Manifestation of God is a Day of Judgment, but the coming of the supreme Manifestation of Bahá’u’lláh is the great Day of Judgment for the world cycle in which we are living. The trumpet blast of which Christ and Muhammad and many other prophets speak is the call of the Manifestation, which is sounded for all who are in heaven and on earth—the embodied and the disembodied. The meeting with God, through His Manifestation, is, for those who desire to meet Him, the gateway to the Paradise of knowing and loving Him, and living in love with all His creatures. Those, on the other hand, who prefer their own way to God’s way, as revealed by the Manifestation, thereby consign themselves to the hell of selfishness, error and enmity.”

Bahá'í Reference Library - Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, Pages 219-220

However, the day of judgment culminates when we are judged by God in the next world, and we will be judged by what we did in this world.

Thus the following passages:

"... in the Day when all the peoples of the earth will be gathered together, any man should, whilst standing in the presence of God, be asked: “Wherefore hast thou disbelieved in My Beauty and turned away from My Self,” and if such a man should reply and say: “Inasmuch as all men have erred, and none hath been found willing to turn his face to the Truth, I, too, following their example, have grievously failed to recognize the Beauty of the Eternal,” such a plea will, assuredly, be rejected."
Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 143-144

And

"... ye shall, most certainly, be summoned by a company of His angels to appear at the spot where the limbs of the entire creation shall be made to tremble, and the flesh of every oppressor to creep. Ye shall be asked of the things your hands have wrought in this, your vain life, and shall be repaid for your doings. This is the day that shall inevitably come upon you, the hour that none can put back.”
Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 122-125

Not seeing the solution to the contradiction. Also, Baha;allah defined day of judgment of Isa (a) to be Mohammad legislation (S) period (inclusive of his successors) and Baha'allah to be day of judgment of Mohammad (S). This idea is non-existent in the Quran and if we try to assume it, many contradictions and absurdities occurs. I've made threads with some of these. I've explained a few here, and the fear contradiction, is just one which you are yet to address.

 

[Brian2]

I don't know if it's something you'll want to do, but Bill Sears book, "Thief in the Night", is the main book that goes through most of the prophecies that Baha'is use to show that Baha'u'llah is the return of Christ.

I was learning about the Baha'i Faith when I read it, and I believed every word... until I started studying the Bible with Christians and found that most all of them had problems, mostly being taken out of context.

Yes I have looked at part of the book and Bill Sears interpretations certainly do have problems.

 

[Trailblazer]

There is nothing in the history about Baha'u'llah raising the dead and judging the world and ruling on his throne. It is no more than Baha'i claims.

Baha'u'llah raised the spiritually dead and judged the world. Baha'u'llah is ruling on His throne, figuratively of course, which is the throne of God.

“THE Most Great Law is come, and the Ancient Beauty ruleth upon the throne of David. Thus hath My Pen spoken that which the histories of bygone ages have related. At this time, however, David crieth aloud and saith: ‘O my loving Lord! Do Thou number me with such as have stood steadfast in Thy Cause, O Thou through Whom the faces have been illumined, and the footsteps have slipped!’”

Bahá'í Reference Library - Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 89-90

The history of the Baha'i Faith shows how the OT prophecies were fulfilled.

And the Baha'i teaching contradicts the Biblical teaching.

The Baha'i teachings contradict the Christian teaching that dead people will rise from their graves and come back to life.
According to the Bahá’í teaching the Resurrection has nothing to do with the gross physical body. That body, once dead, is done with. It becomes decomposed and its atoms will never be recomposed into the same body.

Everyone is free to choose which one of those teachings make more sense.

 

[Trailblazer]

I've explained a few here, and the fear contradiction, is just one which you are yet to address.

I am not afraid of any contradictions that might exist. I cannot address those since I am not familiar with the Qur'an.

 

[CG Didymus]

Shoghi Effendi does mention another world conflict, I would have to find that for you, unless you can find it? I am building at the moment, as well as work, so not much spare time.

All the best, Regards Tony

I was told that Shoghi Effendi said in somebody's pilgrim notes that coastal cities, one of them being San Francisco, would be vaporized.

But the question is still does the great tribulation happen before or after the Messiah comes? Can there still be wars and rumors of war long after the Promised One has come and has since died?

 

[CG Didymus]

Sincere people get deceived by scammers, lying politicians, the lusts and desires of the world (which people run after in this life) false philosophies, false prophets etc all the time and others get confused by the number of contradicting lies out there and just give up.

The waters have definitely been muddied up. There's things people in all the other religions can use to show that the Baha'i Faith is not the truth. And Baha'is can find things in the Scriptures of every religion to show that they are the truth.

The Lamb is Jesus and the Bab. Baha'u'llah is the Jewish Messiah even though he never went to Jerusalem. Instead, Mt. Zion and Jerusalem went to him.

The "creative" interpretations continue...

The 144,000 is a key to the end of ages. 144,000 reverts to "9"

Good old AI says they are...

AI Overview
In Revelation chapter 14, the "144,000" are described as a group of people considered to be faithful servants of God, "redeemed from mankind" and serving as "firstfruits" to God and the Lamb

So, converting 144,000 to the number 9 does what? It's some secret code that only Baha'is can decipher? What's wrong with AI's answer?

 

[Brian2]

First let's agree together that Jesus was a manifestation of God --for me the word "manifestation" was something I learned when I as young and attended Sunday school. God is made manifest elsewhere, some say that his glory is manifest in the trees and birds. For me the question of whether a bird can be a manifestation of God crosses in mindless word games.

We can also agree that Jesus was/is the only Son of God manifestation and that his teachings had a huge impact in the world w/ Christianity now being the worlds largest major religion. Does that make Jesus "better" than Noah and Adam? One fact is that Noah and Adam existed long before Jesus, yet Jesus could not have brought his teachings had there been no Adam and Noah. As for whether that makes Noah and Adam "better" than Jesus my take is that the question is silly.

Something important is that many feel that Jesus was the example of how we should all be. OK, so it's true that Jesus had a lot on the ball and gave us much to ponder. At the same time if humanity were to have copied Jesus completely then the human race would have been all dead in a generation. Jesus never reproduced. While Jesus was divinely glorious, he was still human and had some human limitations.

Are we still in agreement?

Noah and Adam were no more than humans, so if you are saying that they were manifestations of God then we are in disagreement.

 

[Brian2]

That's one of the worst Baha'i analogies. A much better one is about lamps. In that one, Jesus is one lamp, and Baha'u'llah is another lamp, but it is the same electricity that lights them. But same thing, don't get attached to the lamp but see that it is the power of God through the Holy Spirit that lights them.

If they would have just used that one and let it alone, they would have been better off... But they had to ruin it with this comparing the Sun that shines on different days? It is the same Sun. Nobody is calling it the Sun of Monday and the Sun of Tuesday.

Then they have one that compares their manifestations to the different teachers that a kid has as they go through grade school? But in school, each teacher builds on the things that were learned in the previous grade. With religions, the teachings of the previous religions have to be unlearned and corrected by the next religion.

Baha'is come close in many ways. Like why wouldn't there be one God that sends a new teacher with new teachings as humankind progresses? But the religions are not teaching the same kinds of things. How do we go from reincarnation to being saved by grace? And after being saved by grace back to saving yourself by good works? And how do we go from being taught that the story about Jesus is literally true... to... no it's not literally true, it's symbolically true.

But not only him... Adam and Noah? They are real, and they are manifestations of God. But the Bible story about them is not true... The garden, the serpent, the tree... all symbolic. And the Ark, the flood, the animals... all symbolic. Then with Abraham, no it wasn't Isaac... it was Ishmael. Then who knows what Baha'is do with Moses? Are any of those stories literally true? The plaques, the parting of the seas, his staff turning into a snake?

What is genius about making all those things symbolic, the Baha'is can then say, "We believe it is all true... symbolically true... just not literally true." Which still serves the same purpose as calling all of it a great big lie... It gets rid of it.

The only truth that is left after that... is the Baha'i truth.

And for you Baha'is... that doesn't mean what you say isn't true... it's just that I have my doubts.

Why do you just have your doubts? Why not just say that Baha'i is not true?

 

[CG Didymus]

And the Baha'i teaching contradicts the Biblical teaching.

His body won't see corruption? His body was flesh and bone? He showed himself to be alive with many proofs?

I question Christianity as much as I do the Baha'i Faith, but even I can clearly see that the NT writers are claiming that Jesus came back to like in some type of physical body.

If that's not true, then Baha'is should be clear... That the NT writers are lying... the physical body Jesus is dead and gone and that the disciples most likely took it and hid it. And some Baha'is have said that. And they get from "Pilgrim Notes" of things that Shoghi Effendi, the Guardian of the Baha'i Faith, had said...

​

In Pilgrim’s Notes, Shoghi Effendi indicated that the Body was hidden by the disciples under the wall of Jerusalem and later moved by St Helena to beneath the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, where the Body of Christ is presumably still located, if it has survived.​

​

The official statement is this.

".. Concerning the location of the burial site of Jesus' sacred remains, a letter dated 22 March 1982 written on behalf of the Universal House of Justice to an individual believer states:

"Pilgrims have recorded in their notes oral statements made by 'Abdu'l-Bahá and Shoghi Effendi to the effect that the disciples hid the body of Christ by burying it under the wall of Jerusalem, and that it is now under the Church of the Holy Sepulchre. The House of Justice knows of nothing in the Writings of the Faith, however, explicitly confirming these statements."

For me, it's obvious... The Baha'i Faith teaches things are contradictory to the Bible and the NT. And that's fine, if they can support their claims.

But then they try and use the Bible and NT to support their claims that the Bab and Baha'u'llah are the return of Jesus and Elijah... that is... symbolically.

 

[Trailblazer]

I was told that Shoghi Effendi said in somebody's pilgrim notes that coastal cities, one of them being San Francisco, would be vaporized.

I would not pack your bags...
Pilgrims notes are just pilgrims notes. They are not authoritative.