Brian2
Veteran Member
It's a nice vague sentiment but the reality is as @CG Didymus says, they all have different "truths". Looking at the details, the fine print, is always a good idea.
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True and False Prophets - Just and Honest Determination
- Thread starter TransmutingSoul
- Start date
It's a nice vague sentiment but the reality is as @CG Didymus says, they all have different "truths". Looking at the details, the fine print, is always a good idea.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
When I first read it, I hadn't read the Bible... not even the Gospels... nothing.
One of them that is used a lot is Micah 7:12 In that day also he shall come even to thee from Assyria, and from the fortified cities, and from the fortress even to the river, and from sea to sea, and from mountain to mountain. KJV.
This, Baha'is say, predicts exactly the path that Baha'u'llah was taken on during his exile, which eventually landed him in the prison city of Akka.
Trouble is... In some of the other translations, it's way different...
NIV In that day people will come to you from Assyria and the cities of Egypt, even from Egypt to the Euphrates and from sea to sea and from mountain to mountain.
New Living Translation
People from many lands will come and honor you— from Assyria all the way to the towns of Egypt, from Egypt all the way to the Euphrates River, and from distant seas and mountains.
New King James Version
In that day they shall come to you From Assyria and the fortified cities, From the fortress to the River, From sea to sea, And mountain to mountain.
New American Standard Bible
It will be a day when they will come to you From Assyria and the cities of Egypt, From Egypt even to the Euphrates River, Even from sea to sea and mountain to mountain.
But that's not a problem. Tony commented saying that "He" or "They" didn't matter, because Baha'u'llah traveled with a group of people.
But Baha'u'llah came from Persia and the verse says Assyria. Not a problem, TB said that at one time the Assyrian Empire included most of Persia.
So, there's always a way to explain things.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Only to give them the benefit of doubt. If they are true, they can prove it to me.
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
This is how I understand this.
The issue is, In the mind of most Muslims, the events of the day of Judgment happens in a single day, which is a 24 hour day.
Now, this understanding contradicts with how Shia Imams explained Day of Judgment.
For example, in a Hadith from Imam Sadiq, He explained that Day of Judgment is a 1000 year period:
There is a Hadith in Bihar alanwar, which is lengthy one that Abu Basir narrated from Imam Muhammad Baqir (a.s.). The Hadith is lengthy, so, I only quote the related part:
أَخْبَرَ بِطُولِ يَوْمِ الْقِيَامَةِ وَ قَالَ كَأَلْفِ سَنَةٍ مِمَّا تَعُدُّونَ.
"....He has informed us of the length of the day of Resurrection. It will be as a thousand years in your reckoning.”
So if a Muslim considers that, the signs and events of the Day of Resurrection will be fulfilled during a thousand year period, then, the "Fear" that the Quran talks about becomes more clear.
This is about the punishments that happens in the world as a result of rejection of Baha'u'llah, the promised One of the Quran.
This punishment though appears in forms of wars, illnesses and natural disasters, which serve as an awakening punishment. These punishments are the fear that Quran promised, when it warned of a Day!
But in the mind of the Muslims who interpret the Quran literally, it appears as a contradiction because they understand the Day of Resurrection is a literal 24 hour period, that, will be very frightening, due to earthquakes, smoke from sky, moving mountains, darkening of the Sun and Moon, falling stars,..etc.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Maybe we can prove it to you, or maybe we can't, but even if we can't, that does not mean it is not true.
It only means we were unsuccessful in proving it to you.
Since you have been willing to persevere for this long you may as well keep going and see where it leads....
I am game if you are.... I never give up on anything as long as there is any hope of success.
Just ask anyone who knows me.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Thanks for stopping by. I have missed seeing you.
Unfortunately, I don't know the Quran since I have not had time to read it yet.
It's interesting how Muslims have different beliefs even though they are reading the same book.
Of course the same applies to Christians and the Bible, and no doubt to followers of other religions and their scriptures..
Brian2
Veteran Member
Daniel 9:24-27, the 70 weeks prophecy, is said to be a prophecy that shows the time for the coming of Jesus the Messiah and that he will be killed. There is disagreement about the exact meaning and about where the prophetic period should begin.
Brian2
Veteran Member
Yes Baha'u'llah is everyone and everything, even what has already been applied to Jesus.
But yes, TB has told me that Baha'u'llah did not claim the title of Son of Man. But that does not stop her from saying that Son of Man in the gospel does sometimes refer to Baha'u'llah (in places where it is about the Son of Man coming in the clouds to judge the earth etc)
The whole thing does get confusing.
Brian2
Veteran Member
Anything ridiculous thing goes for TB when it comes to trying to show that Baha'u'llah is whom he claims and that the Bible shows this.
Then she is just as likely to say that most of the Bible is untrue.
Brian2
Veteran Member
The Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world is clearly about Jesus. (John 1:29)
TB says that some places in the gospel referring to the Son of Man, are referring to Baha'u'llah.
Brian2
Veteran Member
Yet you want the Son of God in Psalm 2 to be Baha'u'llah.
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Brian2
Veteran Member
Matt 24:21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. 22 And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for ethe sake of the elect those days will be cut short...........................................................................................................................
Matt 24:29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
It looks like He is coming after the tribulation and that tribulation will be the worst that will ever be on the earth. And yes it is the Son of Man who is coming.
None of the Baha'i interpretations of prophecy work for Baha'u'llah.
Brian2
Veteran Member
That raising of the spiritually dead and judging the world is not in any history books. It is, as I said, no more than Baha'i claims.
Also interestingly the New Testament shows that Jesus is ruling on the throne of David but your quote has Baha'u'llah (Ancient Beauty) ruling on the throne of David.
It is not a matter of which teaching makes more sense when we are talking about God who created the universe and can certainly raise the bodies of the dead up.
It is a matter of whether you believe the Bible or Baha'u'llah.
Brian2
Veteran Member
The whole idea of Satan, the spirit behind Baha'u'llah, is to muddy the waters.
Brian2
Veteran Member
So Christians stole and moved the body and then preached that Jesus rose from the dead and died rather than deny that and say it is a big lie.
Brian2
Veteran Member
And when we look at more of the passage we can see that the Baha'is pluck out, verse 12, is out of context and does not say who these people will be. It is no more than a claim by Baha'is. It reminds me of some prophecies that Matthew might use about Jesus, which seem to be plucked out of context.
Micah 7:11 The day for building your walls will come,
the day for extending your boundaries.
12 In that day people will come to you
from Assyria and the cities of Egypt,
even from Egypt to the Euphrates
and from sea to sea
and from mountain to mountain.
13 The earth will become desolate because of its inhabitants,
as the result of their deeds.
Brian2
Veteran Member
Haven't you given them time to do that and realised that they cannot prove it.
Brian2
Veteran Member
Maybe we can prove it to you, or maybe we can't, but even if we can't, that does not mean it is not true.
It only means we were unsuccessful in proving it to you.
Since you have been willing to persevere for this long you may as well keep going and see where it leads....
I am game if you are.... I never give up on anything as long as there is any hope of success.
Just ask anyone who knows me.
You don't even give up when there is no hope of success and when you have been proven wrong over and over.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Yes Jesus is everyone and everything, even when it applies to Baha'u'llah.
It's not that complicated. Baha'u'llah was the return of Christ so He was the return of the Son of Man who came in the clouds.
Son of man coming in the clouds means that the return of Christ will appear in the form of another human being. The term “clouds” as used in the Bible means those things that are contrary to the ways and desires of men. Just like the physical clouds prevent the eyes of men from beholding the sun, these things hindered men from recognizing the return of Christ.
In other words, the judgment of most people was clouded when Christ returned and it is still clouded for most people.
One thing that clouds the judgment of Christians is their desire for the same Jesus to return to earth.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
The prophecy about the abomination is important. The Baha'is use it to get to the year 1844. But I don't think they are starting counting the 2300 days from the right date. They start it in 457BC when the decree to rebuild Jerusalem went out... not the year the abomination took place.
Here's the verses...
Daniel 8:5 As I was thinking about this, suddenly a goat with a prominent horn between its eyes came from the west, crossing the whole earth without touching the ground. 6 It came toward the two-horned ram I had seen standing beside the canal and charged at it in great rage. 7 I saw it attack the ram furiously, striking the ram and shattering its two horns. The ram was powerless to stand against it; the goat knocked it to the ground and trampled on it, and none could rescue the ram from its power. 8 The goat became very great, but at the height of its power the large horn was broken off, and in its place four prominent horns grew up toward the four winds of heaven.
9 Out of one of them came another horn, which started small but grew in power to the south and to the east and toward the Beautiful Land. 10 It grew until it reached the host of the heavens, and it threw some of the starry host down to the earth and trampled on them. 11 It set itself up to be as great as the commander of the army of the Lord; it took away the daily sacrifice from the Lord, and his sanctuary was thrown down. 12 Because of rebellion, the Lord’s people[a] and the daily sacrifice were given over to it. It prospered in everything it did, and truth was thrown to the ground.
13 Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to him, “How long will it take for the vision to be fulfilled—the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, the rebellion that causes desolation, the surrender of the sanctuary and the trampling underfoot of the Lord’s people?”
14 He said to me, “It will take 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be reconsecrated.”
I don't see the connection between this and the decree to rebuild Jerusalem.Here's where it mentions the rebuilding of Jerusalem...
Daniel 9:25 “Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One,[f] the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’ It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. 26 After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing.
What's amazing is if they do use the decree in 457BC and add 2300 years it comes out to 1844. And, of course, that's the year the Bab declared himself. But what does the rebuilding of Jerusalem have to do with the abomination? Why isn't it that year when we start counting the 2300 mornings and evenings?Here's the Baha'i interpretation...
In the book Some Answered Questions, ‘Abdu'l-Bahá outlines a calculation for the 2,300-day prophecy which matches the one performed by William Miller, to determine the date of the second coming of Christ.[10]
The prophecy states "For two thousand three hundred days; then the sanctuary shall be cleansed." (Daniel 8:14)
The 2,300 days are understood to represent 2,300 years stretching from 457 BC, the calculated starting date of the 70 weeks prophecy based on the 3rd decree found in Ezra, to 1844 AD.[11][12] ‘Abdu'l-Bahá demonstrated that the fulfillment of this prophecy did in fact occur in 1844, the year of the Declaration of the Báb in Persia...
But the Baha'is are not finished with Daniel yet. Here's the next one they use...Daniel 12:11 “From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. 12 Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days.
Again, it should start in the year this abomination happened. And then add the days or years or whatever they want. But they don't.Here's the Baha'i quote...
In addition, Baha'is have applied the day-year principle to the two prophecies at the end of the last chapter of Daniel concerning the 1,290 days (Dan 12:11) and the 1,335 days (Dan 12:12).[9] The 1,290 days is understood as a reference to the 1,290 years from the open declaration of Muhammad to the open declaration of Bahá’u’lláh. The 1,335 days is understood to be a reference to the firm establishment of Islam in 628 AD to the firm establishment of the Baha'i Faith (the election of its Universal House of Justice) in 1963 AD.
What does the declaration of Muhammad have to do with the when the abomination is set up?