True and False Prophets - Just and Honest Determination

[CG Didymus]

Simple things... Like when I ask about the "Great Tribulation". I think it's before Jesus returns, not after.

So, all Baha'is have to do is show me how I'm wrong. Did I miss something in my research? Tell me, what are the prophecies that Baha'is see that point to the tribulation happening after the Christ comes? They should be right there handy. What are they?

I'm asking Baha'is why they think it comes after? Are there prophecies in the other Scriptures that Baha'is use to support it?

Take a look at when Kalki, Jesus, even the Mahdi... do any of them have a great big turmoil after they come or before?

Never mind, let me look...

AI Overview​

Learn more​

​

Yes, the Great Tribulation happens before the return of Christ​

And for those that don't like AI, here's one of it's sources...

At the end of the Tribulation, Jesus Christ will return with the hosts of heaven as well as the Church to establish the Messianic Kingdom on earth.[10] His Kingdom will last for a thousand years.[11] At this Second Coming, the Antichrist will be cast into the Lake of Fire and Satan will be bound for a thousand years. [12] The nations and their representatives will be judged.[13] Israel will be restored to her land, never more to be removed.[14] Christ will reign with firmness and equity.[15] His kingdom will be marked by material and spiritual blessing, since the curse upon the earth will be removed.[16]​

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[10] Revelation 19:7-9; Revelation 19:14; 1 Thessalonians 3:13; Zechariah 14:9; Revelation 19:15; Revelation 19:16​

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[11] Revelation 20:2; Revelation 20:4-6​

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[12] Revelation 19:20; Revelation 20:1-3​

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[13] Joel 3; Matthew 25​

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[14] Amos 9:15; Ezekiel 34:28​

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[15] Psalm 2:9; Isaiah 11:4​

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[16] Romans 8:19-21​

Then the Mahdi...

Before his reappearance the world will plunge into chaos, where immorality and ignorance will be commonplace, the Qur'an will be forgotten, and religion will be abandoned.[59] There will be plagues, earthquakes, floods, wars and death.[64] The Sufyani will rise and lead people astray. The Mahdi will then reappear in Mecca, with the sword of Ali in his hand,[59] between the corner of the Ka'ba and the station of Abraham.​

Then Kalki...

The Garuda Purana lists ten incarnations, with Kalki being the final one.[17] He is described as the incarnation who appears at the end of the Kali Yuga. He ends the darkest, degenerating, and chaotic stage of the Kali Yuga to remove adharma and ushers in the Satya Yuga,​

And Baha'is... Don't just say you can't trust those sources, show me some Scriptures that say the End Time Promised One will come, get rejected, thrown in jail, die... And then a great upheaval happens.

And it looks like that's where we are heading. A big war, a huge environmental disaster... But was the Promised One predicted to come before or after all the bad stuff happens?

 

[Trailblazer]

I don't see how they can say the "great" tribulation happened already. Especially when they say it is coming. All because the world rejected their prophet.

I know you have a rule about not posting to me but that makes it difficult to communicate with you.
I am still waiting for the Bible verses that say that the Great Tribulation will happen before Christ returns.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

If you don't need them, that's fine. But what do you do when someone asks you about all those prophecies that Baha'i say have all been fulfilled? You got to know at least a little about them, and how Baha'u'llah fulfilled them don't you?

I share them and leave them to make up their own mind CG.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Read Malachi, it is all about the "Lord of Hosts",which I see is about Baha'u'llah.

Especially Malachi 3 & 4.

Why is it the "Great and Dreadful Day of the Lord, if peace is Immediate?

This is all about the end of ages, and note Elijah (the Bab) is sent before.

Regards Tony

I'm asking Baha'is why they think it comes after? Are there prophecies in the other Scriptures that Baha'is use to support it?

Try that reply CG. Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

I'm asking Baha'is why they think it comes after? Are there prophecies in the other Scriptures that Baha'is use to support it?

For the third time, I'm asking you why you think it comes before? Are there prophecies that you can use to support it?
You keep claiming that the Great Tribulation comes before the return of Christ, so it is your responsibility to support that claim with evidence.

By the way, many Christians believe that the Great Tribulation comes after the return of Christ.

 

[CG Didymus]

Read Malachi, it is all about the "Lord of Hosts",which I see is about Baha'u'llah.

Especially Malachi 3 & 4.

Why is it the "Great and Dreadful Day of the Lord, if peace is Immediate?

This is all about the end of ages, and note Elijah (the Bab) is sent before.

Regards Tony

Hmm? Why isn't that about Jesus? He had his "Elijah" and Jerusalem was destroyed not long after Jesus' time.

Or... Why not one of the many prophecies meant for the Jews to get them to repent? Since it goes into all that stuff about tithes.

Have you got anymore verses?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I do not need Bible prophecies to know who Baha'u'llah was either.

Any logical person would know that this is not a good way to determine if Baha'u'llah was the return of Christ, for one simple recon.

Prophecies can be interpreted in various ways to mean various things. The same applies to all Bible verses.

Christians do not believe in Jesus because of the OT prophecies that He fulfilled, they believe in Him because of His person and what he did on His mission from God, and what He said, as depicted in the NT. Why apply a different standard to belief in Baha'u'llah?

Is it this quote that you were going to offer?

"Be thankful to God for having enabled you to recognize His Cause. Whoever has received this blessing must, prior to his acceptance, have performed some deed which, though he himself was unaware of its character, was ordained by God as a means whereby he has been guided to find and embrace the Truth. As to those who have remained deprived of such a blessing, their acts alone have hindered them from recognizing the truth of this Revelation. We cherish the hope that you, who have attained to this light, will exert your utmost to banish the darkness of superstition and unbelief from the midst of the people. May your deeds proclaim your faith and enable you to lead the erring into the paths of eternal salvation."
(Baha'u'llah, quoted in Shoghi Effendi, The Dawn-Breakers, p. 586)

"As to those who have remained deprived of such a blessing, their acts alone have hindered them from recognizing the truth of this Revelation."

I used to wonder what that meant, but now I think I know what it might mean by "acts." Their acts may very well be the nitpicking about how Baha'u'llah did not fulfill certain prophecies according to their understanding of those prophecies and their insistence that they are right about what all the Bible verses mean. Thus it is their own ego that has hindered them from recognizing the truth of this Revelation!

Yes that is the quote. As I had shown CG that quote before, I did not repeat it. But maybe I should.

Reminds me of a good story about Abdu'l-Baha. (My summary)

A women came up after one of the talks he had given and said it was a wonderful talk, but why did he repeat the same thing many times over (you will see this in the talks of Abdu'l-Baha).

Abdu'l-Baha replied with a question, what was it I repeated over and over, and the women could not recall. (The original story is a better read)

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Hmm? Why isn't that about Jesus? He had his "Elijah" and Jerusalem was destroyed not long after Jesus' time.

Or... Why not one of the many prophecies meant for the Jews to get them to repent? Since it goes into all that stuff about tithes.

Have you got anymore verses?

Why are my thoughts towards Baha'u'llah, that is because Baha'u'allah gave us this gift .

"Summons of the Lord of Hosts"

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

True the spiritually dead are born again spiritually when they are baptised with the Spirit.
But that is not all, Jesus redemption extended to our bodies also, which are redeemed at the resurrection.
Romans 8:23 And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.

According to Paul. I don't give a rip what Paul says, and I don't have to because he doesn't speak for Jesus.

Daniel 12:2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

The verse does not say that anyone will rise from their graves.

It helps to know the meaning of everlasting life.

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

All these verses refer to everlasting life of the soul, not everlasting life of the physical body.

John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

1 John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

John 5:28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

for a time is coming when all who are in their graves (buried in of spiritual death) will hear his voice 29 and come out of spiritual death—those who have done what is good will rise to gain eternal life (as defined in John 17:3), and those who have done what is evil will be condemned.

But it is not about what Jesus says or what is in the Bible. That is all BS unless it agrees with Baha'i teachings.

It is about what Jesus says, or what the OT prophets say, but it is not about what Paul says.

 

[Trailblazer]

No not really the same body. You have been reading the Bible and listening to me for a while and still you say "same body". As Paul says in 1Cor 15, the body that is buried is not what is raised. The body that is raised is a transformed body, it has become immortal and incorruptible. It is a spiritual body.

Yes, it is a spiritual body, not a physical body that was transformed to become immortal and incorruptible.

1 Corinthians 15
New Living Translation

40 There are also bodies in the heavens and bodies on the earth. The glory of the heavenly bodies is different from the glory of the earthly bodies.
42 It is the same way with the resurrection of the dead. Our earthly bodies are planted in the ground when we die, but they will be raised to live forever. 43 Our bodies are buried in brokenness, but they will be raised in glory. They are buried in weakness, but they will be raised in strength.
44 They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies.

And of course you seem to think that "spiritual" means "spirit" but that is not what the Greek "spiritual" means.

I never said that a spiritual body is a spirit.

“The answer to the third question is this, that in the other world the human reality doth not assume a physical form, rather doth it take on a heavenly form, made up of elements of that heavenly realm.” Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 194

 

[CG Didymus]

At the end of the Tribulation, Jesus Christ will return with the hosts of heaven as well as the Church to establish the Messianic Kingdom on earth.[10] His Kingdom will last for a thousand years.[11] At this Second Coming, the Antichrist will be cast into the Lake of Fire and Satan will be bound for a thousand years. [12] The nations and their representatives will be judged.[13] Israel will be restored to her land, never more to be removed.[14] Christ will reign with firmness and equity.[15] His kingdom will be marked by material and spiritual blessing, since the curse upon the earth will be removed.[16][10] Revelation 19:7-9; Revelation 19:14; 1 Thessalonians 3:13; Zechariah 14:9; Revelation 19:15; Revelation 19:16[11] Revelation 20:2; Revelation 20:4-6[12] Revelation 19:20; Revelation 20:1-3[13] Joel 3; Matthew 25[14] Amos 9:15; Ezekiel 34:28[15] Psalm 2:9; Isaiah 11:4[16] Romans 8:19-21

It's says "after" the Tribulation, Jesus will return. The verses they are using are right there. Check it out.

But then there's this about the Mahdi and Kalki. If this isn't correct, show that verses in their Scriptures that have a great turmoil happen after.

Then the Mahdi...

Before his reappearance the world will plunge into chaos, where immorality and ignorance will be commonplace, the Qur'an will be forgotten, and religion will be abandoned.[59] There will be plagues, earthquakes, floods, wars and death.[64] The Sufyani will rise and lead people astray. The Mahdi will then reappear in Mecca, with the sword of Ali in his hand,[59] between the corner of the Ka'ba and the station of Abraham.
Then Kalki...

The Garuda Purana lists ten incarnations, with Kalki being the final one.[17] He is described as the incarnation who appears at the end of the Kali Yuga. He ends the darkest, degenerating, and chaotic stage of the Kali Yuga to remove adharma and ushers in the Satya Yuga,

 

[TransmutingSoul]

there prophecies in the other Scriptures that Baha'is use to support it?

Take a look at when Kalki, Jesus, even the Mahdi... do any of them have a great big turmoil after they come or before?

First consider CG these passages, that many will not be aware that Christ has come.

Revelation 16:15(“Behold, I am coming like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake, keeping his garments on, that he may not go about naked and be seen exposed!”)

Matthew 24:43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known in what part of the night the thief was coming, he would have stayed awake and would not have let his house be broken into

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.

Read all of Mathew 24 in that light, knowing that the days of tribulation will be cut short, to save humanity from its own self.

Matthew 24:22 And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

Most will not see Christ has returned until after the Tribulation. The thief is already in the house and has stolen their presupposed salvation.

Who are the Elect that remained awake! Food for thought.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

It's says "after" the Tribulation, Jesus will return. The verses they are using are right there. Check it out.

Have you checked those verses out?

Revelation 19:7-9; Revelation 19:14; 1 Thessalonians 3:13; Zechariah 14:9; Revelation 19:15; Revelation 19:16; Revelation 20:2; Revelation 20:4-6; Revelation 19:20; Revelation 20:1-3; Joel 3; Matthew 25; Amos 9:15; Ezekiel 34:28; Psalm 2:9; Isaiah 11:4; Romans 8:19-21.

I read every one of those verses and not one of them says or even indicates that Jesus will return AFTER the Tribulation.
There is nothing about the Tribulation in those verses.

 

[Brian2]

Interpretation is the key.

No human has authority of Interpretation, unless given by God via the Messengers. None alive today have that authority.

Regards Tony

The concept of a Baha'i Messenger is made up in the 19th century by Baha'u'llah.
It is not true unless you are prepared to accept Baha'u'llah's teachings to be true and the Bible teachings to be false.

 

[Brian2]

The Bible verse that says "every knee bowing and every tongue confessing" is Philippians 2:10-11 which states, "that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.".

Key points about this verse:

Meaning: It signifies that one day, everyone, regardless of their status, will acknowledge Jesus as Lord and submit to his authority.

Source: This phrase originates from Isaiah 45:23. 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

These verses say nothing about a Second Coming.

Philippians 2
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

A1 messed up again. Isaiah 45:23 is not about Jesus, it is about God. It is to God that every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Isaiah 45:21-23
21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the Lord? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.
22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Having a name above every name and having OT verses about God applied to Him show whom Jesus is.
Baha'is come to the Bible and deny the truth of what is there. They say that Jesus has not been given a name that is above all names, and that every knee will not bow to Jesus and every tongue will not confess that He is Lord because Jesus is not whom the Bible shows Him to be and is not coming back to earth to judge and rule.

 

[Brian2]

Thanks to A1, I now know that Isa 53:8-10 can apply to Jesus as well as Baha'u'llah.

8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

Baha'u'llah literally saw His seed, which was His son, Abdu'l-Baha, but this verse does not have to be interpreted literally.
As A1 says, "seed" can be used metaphorically to represent the future generations or the fruits of one's labor, so in that case Jesus saw His seed..

You left out verse 10.
Isa 53: 10 Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.

Isa 53 is about someone who suffered and died bearing the sins of people etc
Verse 10 tells us that the Lord made his life an offering for sin. This means that he was killed. That is what happens with the offering for sin in the law. The offering is killed. So after his life is made an offering for sin, he will see his offspring. Baha'u'llah did not die and rise again to see his offspring and prolong his days. Jesus did that.

No, there is no need for any other ransom sacrifice, which is why that was not the mission of Baha'u'llah.

Even when Baha'i says that the dispensation of Jesus has ended you still want the ransom sacrifice of Jesus to apply.

Jesus revealed what God was like and Baha'u'llah also revealed what God was like.
The Holy Spirit was given to guide Christians and the Holy Spirit also was given to guide Baha'is.

So Baha'u'llah was not needed for those things and also did not give his life as a ransom sacrifice. So where is any advantage in Baha'u'llah.

Baha'u'llah revealed the a new Book of Laws which will be needed for a future world civilization.

AI Overview
Learn more
In the Bahá'í Faith, the "Most Great Law" is announced in the Kitáb-i-Aqdas, a central scripture written by Bahá'u'lláh around 1873. The Kitáb-i-Aqdas is considered divinely revealed and is also known as the Charter of the future world civilization.

Ah the advantage of Baha'u'llah, another law. "Be nice to each other and live in peace". And here's me thinking that "What the world needs now in love sweet love".

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Aa

The concept of a Baha'i Messenger is made up in the 19th century by Baha'u'llah.
It is not true unless you are prepared to accept Baha'u'llah's teachings to be true and the Bible teachings to be false.

I accept the Sons records as the Noble Gospels and I accept the Fathers records as the Promised 'Day of God', the promised Kingdom on Earth as it is in Heaven.

Both were given of God.

Regards Tony

 

[Sumadji]

still waiting for the Bible verses that say that the Great Tribulation will happen before Christ returns.

What Bible verses refer to a "Great Tribulation" and where does it say that it will happen before Jesus returns, not after?

Matthew 24

Spoiler: The great tribulation

Then Jesus went out and departed from the temple, and his disciples came up to show him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said to them, “Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”

Now as he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of your coming, and of the end of the age?”

And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. And you will hear of wars and rumours of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginning of sorrows.

“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for my name’s sake. And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. But he who endures to the end shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

“Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes.

But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

“Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. For false christ’s and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. See, I have told you beforehand.

“Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it. For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

“Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near. So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors! Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will by no means pass away.

“But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming. But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.

 

[Brian2]

I didn't find an official Baha'i quote about the Bab being the Lamb. Have the Baha'is posted an official quote, or is this just their interpretation?

I don't know. Individual Baha'is seem to teach whatever they like about the Bible and if they eventually can see that it is not true then they fall back on the "Ah it is just my interpretation, not that of Baha'i and not in the teachings of Baha'u'llah, so who cares if it is wrong."

Yes, thanks. Here's an excerpt...

For two thousand three hundred days: Literally, Daniel heard a holy one say “two thousand three hundred mornings and evenings.” Bible students debate if this means 2,300 days or 1,150 days. 2,300 days is almost seven years.​

​

i. Either understanding is possible, but it is more likely that this means 2,300 days. The date when the temple was cleansed is well established as December 25, 165 B.C. If we count back 2,300 days from then, we come to the year when Antiochus Epiphanes began his persecution in earnest (171 B.C.).​

​

ii. However, if we take it to mean 1,150 days it can refer to the time the temple was actually desecrated. Philip Newell makes this case: “For a duration of time during which 2300 daily sacrifices would ordinarily have been offered, one at evening and one in the morning, as specified in Exodus 29:38-43. Since there are two of these daily, the actual time period involved is 1150 days, or slightly over three years. This, in fact, was the time of the Maccabean tribulation, 168-165 B.C., at the end of which the sanctuary was ‘cleansed’ by Judas Maccabeus in his restoration of the evening and morning sacrifices (2 Maccabees 10:1-5).”​

​

iii. This passage has been a favorite springboard for elaborate and fanciful prophetic interpretations. A popular and tragic interpretation of this passage took one year for every day, and William Miller used 2,300 “year-days” to calculate that Jesus would return in 1844 (2,300 years after Cyrus issued the decree to rebuild the temple).​

What's important... There is a year when the abomination happened. There is no reason to count the 2300 evenings and mornings from the decree to rebuild Jerusalem. So, why do it? Unless it's the only way to get to the desired year, 1844.

Have the Baha'is given reasons to discount the year Antiochus desecrated the Temple? I don't remember them ever saying anything about it.

The Baha'is don't seem to want to dispute different interpretations of the Bible. Whatever agrees with Baha'i and the writings of Baha'u'llah is correct. It is good for them to have as many ways to reach 1844 as possible even if none of them are legitimate interpretations or make any sense when the actual prophecies are read.

 

[Brian2]

The key is the Bab gave his Message in AH1260 and Muhammad is foretold in both the Old and New Testaments, thus validation of the prophecy was using the current God given Calendar, in the age God chose as the "Day of God". Which is also supported by AD1844.

William Miller predicted 1844, not knowing it was also the year 1260. So many Christians embraced those prophecies as fulfilled in 1844, not even knowing of the Bab.

I do not need to argue this point, as the Given Messages fulfilled the prophecies, all I see happens when one argues against them, is that they are arguing with God.

Regards Tony

But Muhammad is not foretold anywhere in the Bible and the year 1260 has nothing to do with the prophecy in Daniel 12. So basically the Bible does not point to 1844 when the actual prophecies are looked at and interpreted correctly (according to what they say). So it does not matter what happened in 1844, including what Joseph Smith says about it. In reality it has nothing to do with the Bible.