True and False Prophets - Just and Honest Determination

[TransmutingSoul]

Maybe not you, but I'm okay with time-saving shortcuts to finding information. If I thinks it's true, I'll put it out there, and then you can tell me why you think it's wrong. But it's the information, not how I found it

I am not interested CG. Find a passage of scripture and we can discuss our ideas. With other authorised interpretations that have been given.

A good search engine is a bounty, AI is not when one has to think for their own self. (There will be beneficial uses for it)

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

We must read, meditate on the word which is guven by the Spirit, and live to what it contains.

Using a search engine to find and read the Pure Word, is a great bounty.

The rest requires our own effort.

On the "Word" given by the "Spirit"? This "Pure" word?

Which "Word" is that?

If I meditate and chant with the Hare Krishnas, that's a lot different "Word" then when I go to Christian Rival.

And both of those "Word" are not what Baha'is would call "Pure". So, who has the "Pure" Word of God?

 

[CG Didymus]

The key is the Bab gave his Message in AH1260 and Muhammad is foretold in both the Old and New Testaments, thus validation of the prophecy was using the current God given Calendar, in the age God chose as the "Day of God". Which is also supported by AD1844.

William Miller predicted 1844, not knowing it was also the year 1260. So many Christians embraced those prophecies as fulfilled in 1844, not even knowing of the Bab.

I do not need to argue this point, as the Given Messages fulfilled the prophecies, all I see happens when one argues against them, is that they are arguing with God.

Regards Tony

But that ignores all the problems that are being brought up. Two starting times are mentioned... One of them is when the decree went out to rebuild Jerusalem. The other was when the desecration of the Temple happened.

William Miller uses the decree as the starting point on a prophecy that is about the desecration of the Temple.

Then Baha'is use two dates pertaining to Muhammad that sure seem arbitrary. The only reason I can see they are used is to get the prophecy to the date that Baha'is desire.

You can't explain it or support it in any other way, then to say, "That's what our religion says", therefore, it's true.

But I can understand your dilemma... How can a Baha'i say that something taught in the Baha'i Faith is not true. You can't? So, the only thing left is... no matter what the Baha'i Faith teaches... it is The Truth.

Which means those of us the question and doubt the validity of the Baha'i Faith are blind and ignorant... and are unable to see that truth.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

On the "Word" given by the "Spirit"? This "Pure" word?

Which "Word" is that?

If I meditate and chant with the Hare Krishnas, that's a lot different "Word" then when I go to Christian Rival.

And both of those "Word" are not what Baha'is would call "Pure". So, who has the "Pure" Word of God?

All your choice CG.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

Maybe ask William Miller, they were expecting the return of Christ. He got 1844 and was not a Baha'i.

Regards Tony

Why would you say that? I'm asking you. There is a year when the desecration of the Temple happened. Why not use that year?

But don't worry... You don't have to answer, because I know you can't. Baha'is have to start with the year the decree to rebuild Jerusalem went out. That is the only year that gets you to 1844.

But it is remarkable that the year 1260 is the year 1844. My complaint there is still that the 1260 day for a year prophecy is used for six different things that all happened at different times.

And the very first one has Muhammad and Ali prophesying for 1260 years and then after they prophesy... They are dead in the street for 1260 years... The same 1260 years! Sorry, but that don't make sense. And then there's four more things that happen that get included in that same 1260 time period. But none of them started and stopped in 621, the year the Islamic calendar started, and ended in the year 1844, the year 1260 in the Islamic calendar.

Yes, no problem for Baha'is. But how do you convince people that aren't Baha'is that all that is true and makes sense?

I know, I know... It's up to them to see for themselves if it's true or not. Which is a really good way to dodge the question. But it makes it look like you can't support the claims your religion is making.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

But I can understand your dilemma... How can a Baha'i say that something taught in the Baha'i Faith is not true. You can't? So, the only thing left is... no matter what the Baha'i Faith teaches... it is The Truth.

Which means those of us the question and doubt the validity of the Baha'i Faith are blind and ignorant... and are unable to see that truth.

I do not need the Prophecy to know who Baha'u'llah was CG, that is the key. Prophecy fulfilled is just a bonus of faith, nit necessary for faith in the Person and life of the Messengers and the given Message.

Only our hearts can find that gift, and it is 100% a gift. Our own mind holds us back from accepting the gift, that is advice given by Baha'u'llah. (Can offer the quote)

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

It is in the writings that a world communication system will be devised, enabling instant communication across the globe, adding to the fact that the earth is but one country and mankind its citizens.

But AI is corrupt? And the evening news, and all the podcasts and all the social media stuff and all the politicians and all the religious leaders and... who else?

Again, what was wrong in what AI said in its overview of what the Baha'i Faith believes about Jesus?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

And the very first one has Muhammad and Ali prophesying for 1260 years and then after they prophesy... They are dead in the street for 1260 years... The same 1260 years! Sorry, but that don't make sense. And then there's four more things that happen that get included in that same 1260 time period. But none of them started and stopped in 621, the year the Islamic calendar started, and ended in the year 1844, the year 1260 in the Islamic calendar.

That to me is way over thinking the prophecy.

The key is that the year is given, not the day, not the hour, that can not be known, but the year was given.

All the rest were things that were applicable in Islam up until the year AH1260, they do not need a start date, as it is just a reference to what happened in the years up to 1260 of Islam.

Imagine if Jesus has so many references to the year he declared His Mission in the Hebrew or Julian calendar The Christians would be salivating.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

But AI is corrupt? And the evening news, and all the podcasts and all the social media stuff and all the politicians and all the religious leaders and... who else?

Again, what was wrong in what AI said in its overview of what the Baha'i Faith believes about Jesus?

Not going there CG. Your choice, not mine.

AI needs strict rules and guidelines.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

Jesus didn't have any children, which I think seed is referring to. It always has in the Bible. He died young, His days weren't prolonged. Baha'u'llah made his soul an offering to the world, I think for sin also.

I agree that seeing his seed probably means having children, and the days of Jesus were not prolonged, so that part would apply to Baha'u'llah, but Baha'u'llah did not make his soul an offering for sin, so that part of this verse does not apply to Baha'u'llah. Clearly, the part about making his soul and offering for sin applies to Jesus.

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

Baha'u'llah did not bare the sin of many, so I think that verse 12 applies to Jesus.

12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

I think that AI is influenced by Christian material the AI program found. AI doesn't know that phrase means. It's a computer program. I prefer to rely on my own judgement over that of a machine.

I agree that AI is influenced by Christian material, I even said that myself. I got some information about how verses 8 and 9 can apply to Jesus as well as Baha'u'llah, but I relied upon my own judgment when I analyzed all the verses.

Isaiah 53 doesn't have to be about Baha'u'llah because Isaiah 53 is not about the return of Christ/Messiah of the latter days.

 

[CG Didymus]

All your choice CG.

Regards Tony

No, the correct answer, for a Baha'i, is the Baha'i writings... Maybe the Quran. But none of the others would a Baha'is consider the "Pure" Word of God.

For me, it would be different. And for a Buddhist it would be different. For a Jew it would be different.

So, where does that leave us? It leaves us with the claim that the Baha'i Faith has replaced them all. It is the new, "Pure" teachings from God.

But I disagree, And it wasn't AI or a Google search that made me think that. 50 years ago I read stuff for myself, checked out the claims, and I didn't believe them to be true.

Simple things... Like when I ask about the "Great Tribulation". I think it's before Jesus returns, not after.

So, all Baha'is have to do is show me how I'm wrong. Did I miss something in my research? Tell me, what are the prophecies that Baha'is see that point to the tribulation happening after the Christ comes? They should be right there handy. What are they?

 

[Trailblazer]

Most of the material the AI would find in English would be Christian. It is just a machine that uses the material it finds. This ironic that you are saying this but relied on AI for the meaning of seed.

I agree that most of the material the AI would find would be Christian and it is just a machine that uses the material it finds.
I did not rely upon on AI for the meaning of seed, I only tried to look at it from another perspective because, for other reasons I stated above, I don't think that Isaiah 53 can be about Baha'u'llah.

 

[Trailblazer]

But I disagree, And it wasn't AI or a Google search that made me think that. 50 years ago I read stuff for myself, checked out the claims, and I didn't believe them to be true.

Fair enough.

Simple things... Like when I ask about the "Great Tribulation". I think it's before Jesus returns, not after.

We can look at this some more if you want to, but if that is the reason you think that the Baha'i Faith cannot be true, I don't think that is a good enough reason.

What Bible verses refer to a "Great Tribulation" and where does it say that it will happen before Jesus returns, not after?

 

[Trailblazer]

Tell me, what are the prophecies that Baha'is see that point to the tribulation happening after the Christ comes? They should be right there handy. What are they?

Tell me, what are the prophecies that you see that point to the tribulation happening before the Christ comes?

 

[CG Didymus]

I do not need the Prophecy to know who Baha'u'llah was CG, that is the key. Prophecy fulfilled is just a bonus of faith, nit necessary for faith in the Person and life of the Messengers and the given Message.

Only our hearts can find that gift, and it is 100% a gift. Our own mind holds us back from accepting the gift, that is advice given by Baha'u'llah. (Can offer the quote)

Regards Tony

Yes, and it's a "gift" that Jesus came and died for our sins. A free gift... that if we accept it... We are forgiven. If not, then... hell awaits us?

Or... My past karma has put me where I am now. But the better I do in this life to do good and to be spiritual, the better my reincarnation will be in the next life.

Lots of "messengers" and lots of "messages"... Are the ones I just mentioned true? How about future messengers? How do we know they are true?

Ah yes, the prophecies. But who needs them. Hello, the Baha'i Faith. Tons of claims of prophecy fulfilled. So, why not... let's look at them and see how they are claimed to be fulfilled?

If you don't need them, that's fine. But what do you do when someone asks you about all those prophecies that Baha'i say have all been fulfilled? You got to know at least a little about them, and how Baha'u'llah fulfilled them don't you?

Or... Just tell the person that you don't need them. If they need them they can go research for themselves.

The problem, what do you do when they come back to you and ask about a problem they have with the way Baha'is interpret a prophecy? Which happens all the time. Tell them that you don't care? That it's their problem? That's kind of what you're doing. Which, again, makes Baha'is look as if they really don't know the answer, or worse, they don't have an answer.

And that's not a good look. Baha'is need to have the answers. Maybe AI can't help you find them? Just the "letter"... you'll have to provide the spirit.

 

[Trailblazer]

I do not need the Prophecy to know who Baha'u'llah was CG, that is the key. Prophecy fulfilled is just a bonus of faith, nit necessary for faith in the Person and life of the Messengers and the given Message.

I do not need Bible prophecies to know who Baha'u'llah was either.

Any logical person would know that this is not a good way to determine if Baha'u'llah was the return of Christ, for one simple recon.

Prophecies can be interpreted in various ways to mean various things. The same applies to all Bible verses.

Christians do not believe in Jesus because of the OT prophecies that He fulfilled, they believe in Him because of His person and what he did on His mission from God, and what He said, as depicted in the NT. Why apply a different standard to belief in Baha'u'llah?

Only our hearts can find that gift, and it is 100% a gift. Our own mind holds us back from accepting the gift, that is advice given by Baha'u'llah. (Can offer the quote)

Is it this quote that you were going to offer?

"Be thankful to God for having enabled you to recognize His Cause. Whoever has received this blessing must, prior to his acceptance, have performed some deed which, though he himself was unaware of its character, was ordained by God as a means whereby he has been guided to find and embrace the Truth. As to those who have remained deprived of such a blessing, their acts alone have hindered them from recognizing the truth of this Revelation. We cherish the hope that you, who have attained to this light, will exert your utmost to banish the darkness of superstition and unbelief from the midst of the people. May your deeds proclaim your faith and enable you to lead the erring into the paths of eternal salvation."
(Baha'u'llah, quoted in Shoghi Effendi, The Dawn-Breakers, p. 586)

"As to those who have remained deprived of such a blessing, their acts alone have hindered them from recognizing the truth of this Revelation."

I used to wonder what that meant, but now I think I know what it might mean by "acts." Their acts may very well be the nitpicking about how Baha'u'llah did not fulfill certain prophecies according to their understanding of those prophecies and their insistence that they are right about what all the Bible verses mean. Thus it is their own ego that has hindered them from recognizing the truth of this Revelation!

 

[Trailblazer]

The problem, what do you do when they come back to you and ask about a problem they have with the way Baha'is interpret a prophecy? Which happens all the time.

What about the problems Baha'is have with the way you and Christians interpret a prophecy? Which happens all the time.

Tell them that you don't care? That it's their problem? That's kind of what you're doing. Which, again, makes Baha'is look as if they really don't know the answer, or worse, they don't have an answer.

I don't tell them I don't care. I explain what I think the prophecies mean, but my explanation is never good enough.
Then what should I do, ram it down their throat?

And that's not a good look. Baha'is need to have the answers.

When we give you our answers and you don't LIKE our answers what are we supposed to do, keep arguing about them hoping for a different result?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

No, the correct answer, for a Baha'i, is the Baha'i writings... Maybe the Quran. But none of the others would a Baha'is consider the "Pure" Word of God.

For me, it would be different. And for a Buddhist it would be different. For a Jew it would be different.

So, where does that leave us? It leaves us with the claim that the Baha'i Faith has replaced them all. It is the new, "Pure" teachings from God.

But I disagree, And it wasn't AI or a Google search that made me think that. 50 years ago I read stuff for myself, checked out the claims, and I didn't believe them to be true.

Simple things... Like when I ask about the "Great Tribulation". I think it's before Jesus returns, not after.

So, all Baha'is have to do is show me how I'm wrong. Did I miss something in my research? Tell me, what are the prophecies that Baha'is see that point to the tribulation happening after the Christ comes? They should be right there handy. What are they?

I am not here to show you are wrong CG. I can only offer what my understanding is, about what I see is the truth given by God in this age.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

You did say that Psalm 2 is not about Jesus.

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Psalm 2 is primarily about the rebellion of earthly rulers against God's chosen king, often interpreted as a prophecy of the Messiah, where the nations of the earth will ultimately submit to God's authority and power, despite their initial resistance; it emphasizes that God's anointed king will reign supreme over all nations, and those who oppose him will face destruction while those who submit to him will find safety and refuge.

I know that is not the same thing as saying Psalm 2 is Baha'u'llah but the begotten Son of God in Psalm 2 is going to inherit, rule and judge the nations. So who is it that does that according to you? Hint: Jesus is the begotten Son of God.

Read it again. I have read it several times.
Psalm 2 mentions the begotten Son of God, but Psalm 2 does not say that the begotten Son of God is going to inherit, rule and judge the nations.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Simple things... Like when I ask about the "Great Tribulation". I think it's before Jesus returns, not after.

Read Malachi, it is all about the "Lord of Hosts",which I see is about Baha'u'llah.

Especially Malachi 3 & 4.

Why is it the "Great and Dreadful Day of the Lord, if peace is Immediate?

This is all about the end of ages, and note Elijah (the Bab) is sent before.

Regards Tony