True and False Prophets - Just and Honest Determination

[CG Didymus]

Those that think they are saved by just a declaration of faith, are very, very mistaken.

But, according to Born Again Christians, and again, what it does say in Paul's epistles, a person is saved through faith and not by anything they do in anyway to try and earn their way into heaven by their own good deeds. Which it says are never and can never be good enough. Which is why it says that a perfect sacrifice was needed. And that was Jesus.

Faith needs to be accompanied by works of righteousness true.

Yes, and I don't know how Baha'is can argue around that. It is not the good works and trying to be righteous that saves a person. It is that total and complete trust in Jesus.

But can a Baha'is completely trust Jesus if they don't trust everything the NT says about Jesus? The Jesus they claim to "know" is another Jesus. One of their own making. A Jesus that didn't rise from the dead and isn't coming back.

And, like I've said a few times now, maybe they are right. But then Born Again Christians are wrong. And that is what Tony, TB and other Baha'is are saying. But they are acting, sort of, as if those beliefs are things Christians have made up and not things that come directly from the NT. But once they are shown the verses that support the belief, they have a reason to question that verse. Most commonly by saying it's misinterpreted.

Again, like the resurrection. The NT sure seems to be saying that Jesus came back to life in some kind of physical body. Yet Baha'is insist that those verses can't be taken literally, and a symbolic meaning must be given to them.

Well, then that changes the meaning. And it changes everything. I don't know of any Christian sect that has ever been right. What a waste of time it's been. What was God's point? If the Baha'is are right, then Christians are wrong on so many things. It might as well be considered a false religion.

And that's my complaint about the Baha'i Faith, they take away so much out Christianity that there is nothing left that is worth believing in. Which might be the point... Christianity, to a Baha'i, is so void of truth and is going nowhere, that a person should leave it and become a Baha'i.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Yes, and I don't know how Baha'is can argue around that. It is not the good works and trying to be righteous that saves a person. It is that total and complete trust in Jesus

Total and complete trust in Jesus means one will practice the faith, they go hand in hand.

There is no difference for a Baha'i.

Now you may consider why there are so many prayers for forgiveness. We, one and all are under God's mercy and bounty.

Regards Tony

 

[WonderingWorrier]

you have quoted that the church is going to have authority over the nations and rule them, and the iron scepter and the dashing them to pieces also indicates that this rule will include judging

And in more detail it says in Thyatira like you pointed out. And also mentions being given the morning star like I pointed out.

Jesus, in His parables, when speaking of rewards for servants, does mention ruling over cities

Thyatira is a city.

I don't understand what you are trying to tell me.

In regard to Thyatira being mentioned the city has specific words attached to it and those words are according to the law of words spoken of in the OT. Every word of God has its place within the law of positions. The words attached to Thyatira are all of the same place. So Jesus saying being given the morning star and being associated with purple is correct according to the OT law.

I showed you a verse with saying the morning stars and the Sons of God (remember Jesus saying even as I received)

The Biblical cities and nations have already been judged. Their judgements can be seen by what words they are associated with and their position within the law of words.

Biblical prophecies work exactly the same way as the Biblical city and nation judgements. They all happened the moment they were spoken.

 

[CG Didymus]

Total and complete trust in Jesus means one will practice the faith, they go hand in hand.

There is no difference for a Baha'i.

There's a huge difference between how Baha'is have "faith" in Jesus, and what they believe about Jesus and how Born Again Christians see Jesus.

Baha'is don't believe or practice those things, because they believe they are false beliefs.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

There's a huge difference between how Baha'is have "faith" in Jesus, and what they believe about Jesus and how Born Again Christians see Jesus.

Baha'is don't believe or practice those things, because they believe they are false beliefs.

You may not be aware of how a Baha'i will choose to practice Biblical guidance. It can be followed in ways the churches are yet to consider.

Regards Tony

 

[Brian2]

The meaning of Acts 1:9-11 does not have to be been denied or changed, it says what it says and means what it means.
I stopped trying to interpret it differently a long time ago. I came to realize that it is simply a belief and hope of the author, but it certainly did not come from Jesus so there is no reason to believe it is ever going to happen, especially because Jesus said that he was no more in the world.

So Acts 1:9-11 is a prophecy that you deny to be true. That is a denial.

I can give you can example of verses that need to be denied or changed by Christians in order to maintain the Jesus is going to return and build a kingdom on earth..

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

Yes Jesus had at that last supper just about finished the work that the Father had given Him to do on earth. So John 17:4 is not a literal statement and should be understood in the context of what Jesus was talking about and when He was saying it (just before His death, which Jesus said was part of His work)
We know Jesus did not mean that the world will literally never ever see Him any more because other parts of the New Testament and have the world seeing Jesus when He returns. So your interpretation of John 14:9 is wrong.
Similarly other verses in the New Testament and even in the gospels have Jesus coming back to earth so your interpretation of John 17:11 has to be wrong also.
John 16:10 about righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer;
Even you would say that this is not a literal statement because you believe that Christians who go to heaven will see Jesus.
John 16:16 Jesus went on to say, “In a little while you will see me no more, and then after a little while you will see me.”
17 At this, some of his disciples said to one another, “What does he mean by saying, ‘In a little while you will see me no more, and then after a little while you will see me,’ and ‘Because I am going to the Father’?” 18 They kept asking, “What does he mean by ‘a little while’? We don’t understand what he is saying.”
In the above passage we see that it was not literal when Jesus said "you will see me no more" and we see that His disciples were finding it hard to understand what He meant. Jesus had to explain the meaning to them and they also could see that He was not being literal or meaning that His disciples would never ever see Him again.
When you have to twist the meaning of scripture so far that you contradict your own beliefs, something is wrong.
You twist the meaning of these passages so that you can deny the truth of other passages where Jesus says that He will be coming back.
So you miss out on the truth of Jesus return by changing the meaning of scriptures. In this case you have changed the meaning of other scriptures (not the ones specifically prophesying about return of Jesus.) so that you can deny the passages where Jesus plainly tells us that He is coming back and what He will do when He comes back.
So we have both changing the meaning of passages and denying the meaning of Jesus or anyone else's prophesying His return.
So you have not given any passages about the return of Jesus where you don't need to change the meaning or deny.
So the prophecies about Jesus return are denied by you or you have to change their meaning and the prophecies that the return of Christ will do after He returns have not yet been done because it has only been 172 years.
So you have no confirmation of who Baha'u'llah is from the Bible, only from what He claims about himself in his own writings, by his own authority.

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

This is not specifically a prophecy about the return of Jesus but you need to change the meaning for your own purposes.
Jesus Kingdom is God's Kingdom so Jesus authority is God's authority and does not come from earthly powers and authorities.
For the sake of the argument, if you want to say that Baha'u'llah's authority does not come from God or that His Kingdom of this world, then I would have to agree with you. But of course Baha'u'llah in reality has no Kingdom.

 

[CG Didymus]

So Acts 1:9-11 is a prophecy that you deny to be true. That is a denial.

It's kind of like Baha'is have to deny that they are denying what it says about Jesus.

If the Baha'i "progression" is how God does things, then every person Baha'is claim that were manifestations should have made it clear.... "I am a manifestation from God. Here are the new rules for this day and age. In a few hundred years another manifestation is coming. But it's not me, my work here is finished." Maybe it would have been nice to even mention where the next guy would come to.

But everything is jumbled around enough for everybody to get it wrong.... except the Baha'is. They have the secret formula to correctly interpret the prophecies of all the other religions. And make them all come out to 1844 in Persia with a man taking the title the Bab, the gate, saying another man, who has the title Baha'u'llah, meaning the Glory of God, will soon announce he is the main prophet.

And one of the things Christians get wrong is this...

The second coming will be after the tribulation period. Unlike the rapture, it will be known and seen by everyone. The Second coming is after 7 years of tribulation, when Jesus returns to Earth and defeats the Antichrist to overthrow evil.​

How are Christians wrong? I don't know, because Baha'is won't tell me. I've asked over and over again... In which Scriptures of any religion does it have the "Promised One" come and not fix things? Where does it say that he comes, gets thrown in jail and dies, and then the tribulations happen?

So, there is some other "denial" going on here. Their claims do not fit perfectly. But they are playing a game of religious horseshoes... being close is good enough for them.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

How are Christians wrong? I don't know, because Baha'is won't tell me. I've asked over and over again... In which Scriptures of any religion does it have the "Promised One" come and not fix things? Where does it say that he comes, gets thrown in jail and dies, and then the tribulations happen?

Noah, Abraham, Krishna, Moses Zoroaster, Buddha, Jesus Christ and Muhammad were all "Promised Ones", all part of God's eternal Covernant that he will not leave humanity to its own self.

What did they fix? They give a Message, they fix the people that listen and obey and these people, to the extent of their submission, create God's Kingdom on Earth, as it is in heaven.

If ones view of all this is bound in time, it is impossible to see it all unfold, that is why we are told, often in the Scriptures, that God's days are like 1000 years, Gods time is not our time. In other words all these events do not happen in one generation but over many generations.

Baha'u'llah said soon the present day order will be rolled up and a new order rolled out in its stead, what is soon? It is not our concept of soon. We are supposed to look at all this using our eternal rational soul. If we use our material expectations, wanting a fulfillment of our desires on these matters, then we will be sorely disappointed.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

So Acts 1:9-11 is a prophecy that you deny to be true. That is a denial.

Acts 1:9-11 is not a prophecy because the person who wrote it was not a prophet, he was only a person who believed that Jesus was going to return. I can say I believe that the world is going to end tomorrow. So what? It is only a belief.

Yes Jesus had at that last supper just about finished the work that the Father had given Him to do on earth.

No, Jesus did not say "I have just about finished the work that the Father gave me to do."

Jesus said:
John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

So John 17:4 is not a literal statement and should be understood in the context of what Jesus was talking about and when He was saying it (just before His death, which Jesus said was part of His work)

Yes, it is a literal statement that should be taken literally. It has only one plain meaning. Jesus had finished the work that God gave Him to do.

Jesus said: "I have glorified thee on the earth." That was the work that Jesus came to do. work. After that work was done there was no more work for Jesus to do.

Jesus also died on the cross for out sins, and that was finished there was NO MORE WORK for Jesus to do, and that is why Jesus said:
John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

Why do you keep trying to change the meaning of the Bible? The irony is that you say that Baha'is change the meaning but it is YOU who is trying to change the meaning because you cannot face the fact that Jesus is NEVER coming back to this world.

We know Jesus did not mean that the world will literally never ever see Him any more because other parts of the New Testament and have the world seeing Jesus when He returns. So your interpretation of John 14:9 is wrong.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

In other parts of the New Testament we have people believing that they will see Jesus when He returns. So what? A belief is only a belief. The important thing is that Jesus said "the world seeth me no more;"

Similarly other verses in the New Testament and even in the gospels have Jesus coming back to earth so your interpretation of John 17:11 has to be wrong also.

There are no verses in the New Testament where Jesus says that He coming back to earth. All we have are verses where other people say Jesus is coming back to earth.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

No more means never again. There is only ONE plain meaning to that verse.

John 16:10 about righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer;
Even you would say that this is not a literal statement because you believe that Christians who go to heaven will see Jesus.

John 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
Jesus meant that the disciples would see Him no more on earth. In other verses Jesus told the disciples that they would be with Him in heaven.

Jesus went and prepared a place for His disciples in heaven so He could be with them.
John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

John 16:10 cannot be understood as a standalone verse. It needs to be read in context in order to be understood. It is about Jesus going to the Father in heaven so that the Comforter/Spirit of truth (Baha'u'llah) could come. Baha'u'llah did everything that Jesus said He would do, including reproving the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

John 16
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

John 16:16 Jesus went on to say, “In a little while you will see me no more, and then after a little while you will see me.”
17 At this, some of his disciples said to one another, “What does he mean by saying, ‘In a little while you will see me no more, and then after a little while you will see me,’ and ‘Because I am going to the Father’?” 18 They kept asking, “What does he mean by ‘a little while’? We don’t understand what he is saying.”
In the above passage we see that it was not literal when Jesus said "you will see me no more" and we see that His disciples were finding it hard to understand what He meant. Jesus had to explain the meaning to them and they also could see that He was not being literal or meaning that His disciples would never ever see Him again.

John 16:16 Jesus went on to say, “In a little while you will see me no more, and then after a little while you will see me.”

Yes, Jesus went on to explain the meaning but that doesn't mean that when He said you will see me no more He did not mean that literally.

That verse cannot be about Jesus seeing His disciples again in this world, because Jesus did not return to see His disciples after a little while, or any time during their lifetimes. That means that "then after a little while you will see me" must mean that Jesus will see His disciples in heaven after a little while. That means the following verses can only be about Jesus seeing His disciples again in heaven, when their sorrow will be turned into joy.

20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, That ye shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice: and ye shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy.
22 And ye now therefore have sorrow: but I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice, and your joy no man taketh from you.

John 16:28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.
The plain meaning is that Jesus came from the Father in heaven into the world and now Jesus is leaving this world and going back to the Father.

When you have to twist the meaning of scripture so far that you contradict your own beliefs, something is wrong.
You twist the meaning of these passages so that you can deny the truth of other passages where Jesus says that He will be coming back.

Why do you keep trying to twist the meaning of the Bible? The irony is that you say that Baha'is change the meaning but it is YOU who is trying to change the meaning because you cannot face the fact that Jesus is NEVER coming back to this world.

There are no verses where Jesus says He is coming back to this world. There are only verses where other people say that since they believed that. Those verses count for nothing, since they are contradicted by Jesus, who clearly said in more than one verse that He was no more in the world. No more means never again.

So you miss out on the truth of Jesus return by changing the meaning of scriptures. In this case you have changed the meaning of other scriptures (not the ones specifically prophesying about return of Jesus.) so that you can deny the passages where Jesus plainly tells us that He is coming back and what He will do when He comes back.
So we have both changing the meaning of passages and denying the meaning of Jesus or anyone else's prophesying His return.

So you miss out on the truth of Jesus return by changing the meaning of scriptures so that you can believe that Jesus is coming back to this world.

I do not have to change the meaning of any scriptures since there are absolutely NO verses where Jesus plainly tells us that He is coming back and what He will do when He comes back. Again, all we have are other people saying that Jesus is coming back and what He will do when He comes back.

I do not change or deny the meaning of passages where other people in the NT say that Jesus is coming back and what He will do. They meant what they said. I just don't believe those verses are true. All these people had was a HOPE and a BELIEF. They were not prophets of God so they are not prophecies.

Only the OT has prophets and prophecies. There are no OT prophecies that say that Jesus is coming back to earth. The OT prophecies that you BELIEVE are about Jesus are about Baha'u'llah.

So you have no confirmation of who Baha'u'llah is from the Bible, only from what He claims about himself in his own writings, by his own authority.

I have complete confirmation is who Baha'u'llah was from the Bible. Even if there was no other proof, the fulfillment of OT prophecies and Jesus' promises in the NT that were fulfilled by Baha'u'llah are more than adequate proof that Baha'u'llah was the return of Christ and the messiah of the latter days.

 

[CG Didymus]

Noah, Abraham, Krishna, Moses Zoroaster, Buddha, Jesus Christ and Muhammad were all "Promised Ones", all part of God's eternal Covernant that he will not leave humanity to its own self.

Yes, in the Baha'i way of seeing things... that is what you believe is true.

And why did you leave Adam, Saleh and Hud out? And were there others? Some to the people in East Asia... Some to people in Africa... some to the rest of the people in all the other places on Earth.

Apparently Baha'is do believe that all people had prophets and manifestations...

Continuing our conversation about Native American messengers of God and the indigenous Faiths they brought, let’s take a look at how the Baha’i teachings answer the question, “Were Messengers of God sent to North America?” Here’s Abdu’l-Baha’s response to that important question:​

​

Undoubtedly, in those regions, the Call of God must have been raised in ancient times, but it hath been forgotten now.​

My complaint against this belief is that the different religions are way too varied for me to think there was ever a single source.

What did they fix? They give a Message, they fix the people that listen and obey and these people, to the extent of their submission, create God's Kingdom on Earth, as it is in heaven.

And where is this religion that created "God's" Kingdom on Earth? Even with Christianity, when do Baha'is believe they ever had the right teachings, beliefs and practices? From the beginning they believe in Satan and that people had an inherited sin nature they got from Adam.

If ones view of all this is bound in time, it is impossible to see it all unfold

The different religions don't connect very well. With the example of Judaism, all of the neighboring people believed in a false religion that had false Gods.

Your view is fine... If you want to ignore those things. And, essentially, put the past behind and say, "From now on... Let's all live as one people and believe in one God and have only one religion."

 

[CG Didymus]

Yes Jesus had at that last supper just about finished the work that the Father had given Him to do on earth. So John 17:4 is not a literal statement and should be understood in the context of what Jesus was talking about and when He was saying it (just before His death, which Jesus said was part of His work)
We know Jesus did not mean that the world will literally never ever see Him any more because other parts of the New Testament and have the world seeing Jesus when He returns. So your interpretation of John 14:9 is wrong.

What's wrong with TB taking the Gospel of John literally? Like where it says,

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind."​

​

Jesus Raises Lazarus From the Dead​

38 Jesus, once more deeply moved, came to the tomb. It was a cave with a stone laid across the entrance. 39 “Take away the stone,” he said.​

​

“But, Lord,” said Martha, the sister of the dead man, “by this time there is a bad odor, for he has been there four days.”​

​

40 Then Jesus said, “Did I not tell you that if you believe, you will see the glory of God?”​

​

41 So they took away the stone. Then Jesus looked up and said, “Father, I thank you that you have heard me. 42 I knew that you always hear me, but I said this for the benefit of the people standing here, that they may believe that you sent me.”​

​

43 When he had said this, Jesus called in a loud voice, “Lazarus, come out!” 44 The dead man came out, his hands and feet wrapped with strips of linen, and a cloth around his face.​

​

Jesus said to them, “Take off the grave clothes and let him go.”​

​

20 Now on the first day of the week Mary Magdalene came to the tomb early, while it was still dark, and saw that the stone had been taken away from the tomb. 2 So she ran and went to Simon Peter and the other disciple, the one whom Jesus loved, and said to them, “They have taken the Lord out of the tomb, and we do not know where they have laid him.” 3 So Peter went out with the other disciple, and they were going toward the tomb. 4 Both of them were running together, but the other disciple outran Peter and reached the tomb first. 5 And stooping to look in, he saw the linen cloths lying there, but he did not go in. 6 Then Simon Peter came, following him, and went into the tomb. He saw the linen cloths lying there, 7 and the face cloth, which had been on Jesus'[a] head, not lying with the linen cloths but folded up in a place by itself. 8 Then the other disciple, who had reached the tomb first, also went in, and he saw and believed; 9 for as yet they did not understand the Scripture, that he must rise from the dead.​

​

It's nice to know that a Baha'is places so much importance in taking the Gospel of John literally.

 

[Trailblazer]

What's wrong with TB taking the Gospel of John literally? Like where it says,

Some verses in the Bible have to be taken literally because there is no symbolic meaning.

What would the following verses be symbolic of?
These verses have a plain meaning, a meaning Christians have completely misunderstood.

John 16
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

Christians believe that the Comforter was the Holy Spirit that was sent at Pentecost and that it now lives inside of them, but a Holy Spirit living inside of Christians cannot reprove the world of sin, of righteousness, and of judgment. A Holy Spirit living inside of Christians cannot guide them into all truth. A Holy Spirit living inside of Christians cannot speak of himself; and whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak. A Holy Spirit living inside of Christians cannot shew you things to come. A Holy Spirit living inside of Christians cannot glorify Jesus.

That is how we know that the Comforter is the title of a man, Baha'u'llah, who brought the Holy Spirit and did all of those things.


What would the following verses be symbolic of?
These verses have a plain meaning, a meaning Christians choose to ignore because it means that Jesus is not coming back to this world ever again.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

 

[CG Didymus]

38 Jesus, once more deeply moved, came to the tomb. It was a cave with a stone laid across the entrance. 39 “Take away the stone,” he said.“But, Lord,” said Martha, the sister of the dead man, “by this time there is a bad odor, for he has been there four days.”40 Then Jesus said, “Did I not tell you that if you believe, you will see the glory of God?”41 So they took away the stone. Then Jesus looked up and said, “Father, I thank you that you have heard me. 42 I knew that you always hear me, but I said this for the benefit of the people standing here, that they may believe that you sent me.”43 When he had said this, Jesus called in a loud voice, “Lazarus, come out!” 44 The dead man came out, his hands and feet wrapped with strips of linen, and a cloth around his face.Jesus said to them, “Take off the grave clothes and let him go.”

Hmmm? Some verses have a "plain" meaning? Okay Baha'is, this sounds pretty plain.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

Baha'u'llah said soon the present day order will be rolled up and a new order rolled out in its stead

So what is your bahai belief based on Tony. Tell me what came first. Did you believe Baha'u'llah was a true prophet or did you believe in the oneness of religions?

If ones view of all this is bound in time, it is impossible to see it all unfold, that is why we are told, often in the Scriptures, that God's days are like 1000 years, Gods time is not our time. In other words all these events do not happen in one generation but over many generations.

The Bible prophecies/miracles are not bound in time. They are all constantly happening every generation. Messengers position their speech speaking of the wheel of words/symbols. The words are not the law. The wheel is the law. Different words speaking of the same positions.

That is how you can go through the sea, as if it was a corn field.

"But lift thou up thy rod, and stretch out thine hand over the sea, and divide it: and the children of Israel shall go on dry ground through the midst of the sea". Exodus.

Sea and corn field are words of the same position:

Sea - River - Stream
Corn - Olive - Grape
Field - Oliveyard - Vineyard
Bread - Oil - Wine

Seems Muhammad also knows about the field in the sea.
"And leave the sea as a furrow (divided): for they are a host (destined) to be drowned."

He positions his words correctly according to the law of the wheel of words. One word can be as another when they both speak of the same position.

 

[Brian2]

Acts 1:9-11 is not a prophecy because the person who wrote it was not a prophet, he was only a person who believed that Jesus was going to return. I can say I believe that the world is going to end tomorrow. So what? It is only a belief.

You deny Acts 1:9-11 because it disagrees with Baha'u'llah and shows him to be a false Christ. You accept other parts and even prophecies in Acts which you think do not disagree with Baha'u'llah.
Jesus wrote none of the Bible but God confirmed whom He was by raising Him from the dead,,,,,,,,,,, just as Jesus said would happen. But I suppose your argument proves that Jesus prophecy about His resurrection is not a prophecy because He did not write it.
Baha'u'llah wrote all of his writings but he does not fulfil any prophecies in the Bible without the meaning of the prophecies being altered by him.
And God did not confirm whom he claimed to be, in any way.

No, Jesus did not say "I have just about finished the work that the Father gave me to do."

Jesus said:
John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

Yes, it is a literal statement that should be taken literally. It has only one plain meaning. Jesus had finished the work that God gave Him to do.

Jesus said: "I have glorified thee on the earth." That was the work that Jesus came to do. work. After that work was done there was no more work for Jesus to do.

Jesus also died on the cross for out sins, and that was finished there was NO MORE WORK for Jesus to do, and that is why Jesus said:
John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

Why do you keep trying to change the meaning of the Bible? The irony is that you say that Baha'is change the meaning but it is YOU who is trying to change the meaning because you cannot face the fact that Jesus is NEVER coming back to this world.

First you say that John 17:4 is literal and should be believed, then you tell us that there was more work for Jesus to do, His death. Which is it? I think you have just shown that John 17:4 was not a literal statement.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

In other parts of the New Testament we have people believing that they will see Jesus when He returns. So what? A belief is only a belief. The important thing is that Jesus said "the world seeth me no more;"

The important thing is that you are showing yourself denying Biblical prophecy again. You deny one part of the Bible so you can say another part is true, true in the way that you want it to mean, which is a way that nobody else would even dream of interpreting those last supper quotes of Jesus.
(But Jesus did not even write those quotes so like Acts 1:9-11, that means they are not even prophecies LOL)

There are no verses in the New Testament where Jesus says that He coming back to earth. All we have are verses where other people say Jesus is coming back to earth.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

No more means never again. There is only ONE plain meaning to that verse.

I suppose John 17:11 has one literal meaning, but Jesus was in the world for a while longer so it cannot be literal.
Also you have to deny the prophecies where Jesus said that He was going to come back (eg John 14:3, John 14:28, Matt 25:31-46)
All you can do is repeat your denial of those plain prophecies by Jesus,,,,,,,,,,,,, and of course say that the Son of Man is Baha'u'llah when Jesus identified Himself as the Son of Man and said He is the one who is going to judge the earth (John 5)
Changing the plain meaning of prophecy and denying the truth of the prophecies is all that you have. It is all you seem to have. I don't think you have shown me anywhere where you do not do that.

John 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
Jesus meant that the disciples would see Him no more on earth. In other verses Jesus told the disciples that they would be with Him in heaven.

So it is now OK to not read that literally. But I thought that when Jesus said that the world would see Him no more that had to be read literally even though Jesus is pictured as coming back to judge the earth and everyone as seeing Him.
Pick and choose what you want to believe I guess.

John 16:10 cannot be understood as a standalone verse. It needs to be read in context in order to be understood. It is about Jesus going to the Father in heaven so that the Comforter/Spirit of truth (Baha'u'llah) could come. Baha'u'llah did everything that Jesus said He would do, including reproving the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

John 16
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

You want to make other verses stand alone verses and not see them in context and not this has to be in context.
You want to use the prophecy about the coming Spirit of Truth when that cannot be Baha'u'llah unless you ignore the fact that Baha'u'llah did not guide Jesus disciples into any truth, (it is the Holy Spirit that did that) and Baha'u'llah spoke of himself in a gushing and flowery way.
Baha'u'llah glorified himself and tore Jesus down and said that His ministry is ended.
So again you are both changing the meaning of the prophecy and denying the plain meaning of it.

 

[Brian2]

John 16:16 Jesus went on to say, “In a little while you will see me no more, and then after a little while you will see me.”

Yes, Jesus went on to explain the meaning but that doesn't mean that when He said you will see me no more He did not mean that literally.

That verse cannot be about Jesus seeing His disciples again in this world, because Jesus did not return to see His disciples after a little while, or any time during their lifetimes. That means that "then after a little while you will see me" must mean that Jesus will see His disciples in heaven after a little while. That means the following verses can only be about Jesus seeing His disciples again in heaven, when their sorrow will be turned into joy.

20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, That ye shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice: and ye shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy.
22 And ye now therefore have sorrow: but I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice, and your joy no man taketh from you.

John 16:28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.
The plain meaning is that Jesus came from the Father in heaven into the world and now Jesus is leaving this world and going back to the Father.

The plain meaning of John 16:28 is that Jesus was going to leave the world and go to the Father in heaven.
The plain meaning of John 16:20, 22 is that the disciples would be sad when Jesus was killed but would rejoice when He rose from the dead. This of course is many chapters of the Bible (the story of the resurrection and what happened after it) which you have to deny so that you can change the plain meaning of John 16:20, 22.
But now also you want John 16:16 to not be literal even though it says "you will see me no more" and of course because it says that. That cannot be literal but when Jesus said that "the world will see me no more" that has to be literal and when Jesus said "I have finished my work" that has to be literal even when that Bible shows that it was not meant to be literal and it was not meant to be literal that nobody in the world would ever again see Him.

Why do you keep trying to twist the meaning of the Bible? The irony is that you say that Baha'is change the meaning but it is YOU who is trying to change the meaning because you cannot face the fact that Jesus is NEVER coming back to this world.

If I could see that Baha'u'llah fulfilled Bible prophecy without having to deny much of the Bible and change the meaning of the prophecies I would be glad to say that Jesus is not coming back.

There are no verses where Jesus says He is coming back to this world. There are only verses where other people say that since they believed that. Those verses count for nothing, since they are contradicted by Jesus, who clearly said in more than one verse that He was no more in the world. No more means never again.

So you miss out on the truth of Jesus return by changing the meaning of scriptures so that you can believe that Jesus is coming back to this world.

The problem is that I am the one who can show that those verses are not meant to be literal and that you are inconsistent in wanting some to be literal and others not to be literal. Pick and choose how you are going to interpret depending on if it agrees with Baha'u'llah or not.
And the worse part I suppose is that you flat out lie about the whole thing and say "There are no verses where Jesus says He is coming back to this world."

I do not have to change the meaning of any scriptures since there are absolutely NO verses where Jesus plainly tells us that He is coming back and what He will do when He comes back. Again, all we have are other people saying that Jesus is coming back and what He will do when He comes back.

No, Jesus says He is coming back and tells us some of what He will do and you flat out deny it.

I do not change or deny the meaning of passages where other people in the NT say that Jesus is coming back and what He will do. They meant what they said. I just don't believe those verses are true. All these people had was a HOPE and a BELIEF. They were not prophets of God so they are not prophecies.

You are denying the truth of the Bible passages where it is written that Jesus is coming back. The fruit of a false prophet, the denial of the truth of the Bible.

Only the OT has prophets and prophecies. There are no OT prophecies that say that Jesus is coming back to earth. The OT prophecies that you BELIEVE are about Jesus are about Baha'u'llah.

I have complete confirmation is who Baha'u'llah was from the Bible. Even if there was no other proof, the fulfillment of OT prophecies and Jesus' promises in the NT that were fulfilled by Baha'u'llah are more than adequate proof that Baha'u'llah was the return of Christ and the messiah of the latter days.

So denying the truth of what the New Testament has applied to Jesus is what Baha'u'llah and Baha'is do.
And all you have to go by is the word of Baha'u'llah since God has not confirmed Baha'u'llah is whom he claims and you have not shown me any Biblical prophecies which Baha'u'llah has fulfilled. All you have done is to show what I said, that Bible prophecies about Jesus return are denied and the meaning of the Bible is changed, and even then Baha'u'llah has fulfilled nothing.
You seem to think that Baha'u'llah has fulfilled OT prophecies and Jesus promises in the NT but you have shown me no place where that has happened, no scriptures that have been fulfilled.

 

[Pete in Panama]

If you would also like to see another take on the word "cloud" from the Bible I was talking about it earlier.

Here:




So the cloud is as a chariot because they are both words that share the same position. Same position as the other Bible words I am showing Ephraim, Dove, Bow, Sun, and Mountain etc. They are lawfully interchangeable words because they are words of the same position.

NEAT! We both have figured out that the passages in the sacred text have many meanings and it's our job to understand what the Bible says to us now. Can we also agree that the text may have one meaning for one individual at one time, and a different meanting for another person/place/time?

 

[Pete in Panama]

Clouds in these passages means the clouds of heaven which we all can see by looking up.
Acts 1:9-11, Matt 24:30, Rev 1:7, 1Thess 4:16-17 etc
Resurrection means the coming back to life of a person who has died or been killed.
Luke 9:22, Matthew 28:6, John 2:19-22 etc

Thanks for coming back to me on this and my experience is that many share that point of veiw .

Two questions. Where did you learn these meanings of those words, did somebody tell you or is this your interpretation/inspiration or something? The other question is what are your thoughts on the idea above that I was discussing about how there may be more than one meaning depending on the passage, and the place/time of the person reading?

 

[Trailblazer]

You deny Acts 1:9-11 because it disagrees with Baha'u'llah and shows him to be a false Christ. You accept other parts and even prophecies in Acts which you think do not disagree with Baha'u'llah.

I believe that Acts 1:9-11 is false. One reason I believe it is false is because I know that Baha'u'llah was the return of Christ, but another reason I know it is false is because Jesus said that He was no more in the world, which means Acts 1:9-11 has to be false.

Why do you keep saying "disagrees with Baha'u'llah"? Baha'u'llah does not weigh in on these verses so how could they disagree with Him?
A more accurate statement would be that I believe it is false because it contradicts what Baha'is believe about the return of Christ.

Jesus wrote none of the Bible but God confirmed whom He was by raising Him from the dead,,,,,,,,,,, just as Jesus said would happen. But I suppose your argument proves that Jesus prophecy about His resurrection is not a prophecy because He did not write it.

It is not a prophecy since it was not spoken or written by a prophet. These were only predictions that some men made and what a man said that Jesus said.

Matthew 16:21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

Matthew 17:22 And while they abode in Galilee, Jesus said unto them, The Son of man shall be betrayed into the hands of men:
23 And they shall kill him, and the third day he shall be raised again. And they were exceeding sorry.

Luke 24:
6 He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee,
7 Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.

Baha'u'llah wrote all of his writings but he does not fulfil any prophecies in the Bible without the meaning of the prophecies being altered by him.
And God did not confirm whom he claimed to be, in any way.

Baha'u'llah fulfills all the prophecies without anything being altered.
God confirmed who Baha'u'llah was, over and over and over again.

First you say that John 17:4 is literal and should be believed, then you tell us that there was more work for Jesus to do, His death. Which is it? I think you have just shown that John 17:4 was not a literal statement.

The death of Jesus was not the work of Jesus.

I suppose John 17:11 has one literal meaning, but Jesus was in the world for a while longer so it cannot be literal.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

Jesus was in the world a little while after that. Then Jesus said He was leaving the world and would be no more in the world.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

Also you have to deny the prophecies where Jesus said that He was going to come back (eg John 14:3, John 14:28, Matt 25:31-46)

I have already covered those verses many times over and shown you how they are not Jesus saying He is going to return to this world. I don't plan to do it again.

All you can do is repeat your denial of those plain prophecies by Jesus,,,,,,,,,,,,,

There are no prophecies by Jesus saying that He is coming back to this world. I would never have to have been a Baha'i to know that. All I would have to have done is read the Bible.

So it is now OK to not read that literally.

I do interpret that literally.

John 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;

Jesus meant that the disciples would see Him no more on earth. In other verses Jesus told the disciples that they would be with Him in heaven.

But I thought that when Jesus said that the world would see Him no more that had to be read literally even though Jesus is pictured as coming back to judge the earth and everyone as seeing Him.

Pictured by whom? It doesn't matter what other people believed would happen. It only matters what Jesus said.

You want to use the prophecy about the coming Spirit of Truth when that cannot be Baha'u'llah unless you ignore the fact that Baha'u'llah did not guide Jesus disciples into any truth, (it is the Holy Spirit that did that) and Baha'u'llah spoke of himself in a gushing and flowery way.

Those verses are not addressed to the disciples. They were addressed to anyone who would be reading the Bible.

The Comforter/Spirit of truth verses cannot have been addressed to the disciples since none of the things that the verses say would happen happened during the lifetimes of the disciples. Those things were not supposed to happen until Christ returned. Baha’u’llah has already done all those things, and the rest will happen during His dispensation as the result of His coming.

John 14, 15 and 16 says that the Comforter/Spirit of truth will do all these things on the list below, but it makes no sense that the Holy Spirit could do the those things. Only a man could do those things by speaking and writing.

• Teach you all things
• Call to remembrance what Jesus said
• Testify of Jesus
• Glorify Jesus, receive of Jesus, and shew it unto you
• Guide you into all truth
• Speak what He hears and shew you things to come
• Reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment

Baha'u'llah glorified himself and tore Jesus down and said that His ministry is ended.
So again you are both changing the meaning of the prophecy and denying the plain meaning of it.

Baha'u'llah never claimed that it was HIM who did the guiding, He knew it was the Holy Spirit doing the guiding and teaching.
Baha'u'llah never glorified Himself, He ONLY glorified God.

“Who can ever believe that this Servant of God hath at any time cherished in His heart a desire for any earthly honor or benefit? The Cause associated with His Name is far above the transitory things of this world. Behold Him, an exile, a victim of tyranny, in this Most Great Prison. His enemies have assailed Him on every side, and will continue to do so till the end of His life. Whatever, therefore, He saith unto you is wholly for the sake of God, that haply the peoples of the earth may cleanse their hearts from the stain of evil desire, may rend its veil asunder, and attain unto the knowledge of the one true God—the most exalted station to which any man can aspire. Their belief or disbelief in My Cause can neither profit nor harm Me. We summon them wholly for the sake of God. He, verily, can afford to dispense with all creatures.”

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 82-85

Baha'u'llah glorified Jesus, He NEVER tore Jesus down.

John 16
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

Referring to Jesus as the Son of Man, Baha’u’llah glorified Jesus and testified of Jesus in His Writings.
This is just more evidence that Baha'u'llah was the Comforter/Spirit of truth.

“We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things. Through Him the leper recovered from the leprosy of perversity and ignorance. Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified.”

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 85-86

Baha'u'llah did not say that Jesus' ministry ended, nobody had to say that.
The ministry of Jesus ended when He died and ascended to heaven, since a person cannot have a ministry when they are not here.
Likewise, The ministry of Baha'u'llah ended when He died and ascended to heaven, since a person cannot have a ministry when they are not here.

However, the Dispensation if Baha'u'llah continued after He died and ascended to heaven, and it will remain in place until God sends another messenger in the future.

 

[Trailblazer]

No, Jesus says He is coming back and tells us some of what He will do and you flat out deny it.

Please provide any verses where Jesus said He is coming back and tells us some of what He will do.
I don't care what anyone else said about Jesus. Unless it is a verse where Jesus said that I don't want to see it.