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True Muslims: Sunni vs Shia
- Thread starter gnostic
- Start date
Photonic
Ad astra!
Isn't that usually the basis of hostility between religious sects?
kai
ragamuffin
the belief that have the "only" right view is problematic.
Starsoul
Truth
A basic muslim is somebody who believes there is no deity except Allah, and Muhammad (pbuh saww) is His Final messenger.
Sunni and shia, basically, both believe that.
Sects of Islam which do not assign to this basic dogma, are not considered muslims. e.g,
Ahmadis, a minority group do not consider the Prophet Muhammad (saww pbuh)as the final messenger, believe another man(Mirza ghulam) to be the final messenger, they do call themselves muslims, but are not considered muslims by any muslim school of thought.
Schools of thought : Does not mean sects, it merely denotes a variety of collective ways , all derived and based on the Quran and the Sunnah, but reaching the same destination, not deviating from the main dogma. e.g you can go to china via the silk route or via any other route, you are told about the ways to reach it, and you may choose the one thats suits you the best, is the most appropriate for you.
All schools of thoughts are in agreement with other schools of thoughts, as long as they follow the Quran and sunnah completely.
Sunni and shia, basically, both believe that.
Sects of Islam which do not assign to this basic dogma, are not considered muslims. e.g,
Ahmadis, a minority group do not consider the Prophet Muhammad (saww pbuh)as the final messenger, believe another man(Mirza ghulam) to be the final messenger, they do call themselves muslims, but are not considered muslims by any muslim school of thought.
Schools of thought : Does not mean sects, it merely denotes a variety of collective ways , all derived and based on the Quran and the Sunnah, but reaching the same destination, not deviating from the main dogma. e.g you can go to china via the silk route or via any other route, you are told about the ways to reach it, and you may choose the one thats suits you the best, is the most appropriate for you.
All schools of thoughts are in agreement with other schools of thoughts, as long as they follow the Quran and sunnah completely.
ohhcuppycakee
Active Member
A Muslim is anyone who believes in Allah (SWT) in His oneness, and Prophet Muhammad (SAWS) as Allah's final messenger.
Interestingly worded. Is the intent here to incite?
gnostic
The Lost One
jayhawker soule said:
Incite?
Interesting choice of word, but no. I dislike violence. I dislike war.
Just trying to determine why they fight each other. I don't understand why they fight.
Was it not a question of succession of leadership after Muhammad's death?
If true, shouldn't it be settled over a thousand years ago? Why are there still hostility between the two? Why do they still hold grudges?
Is it a matter of who are the "true Muslims"?
I highlighted your statement in red above. This is quote from Wikipedia:
"According to one estimate, as of early 2008, 1,121 Muslim suicide bombers have blown themselves up in Iraq.[68] Sunni suicide bombers have targeted not only thousands of civilians,[69] but mosques, shrines,[70] wedding and funeral processions,[71] markets, hospitals, offices, and streets.
On the Shia side, in early February 2006 militia-dominated government death squads were reportedly "tortur[ing] to death or summarily" executing "hundreds" of Sunnis "every month in Baghdad alone," many arrested at random.[81][
Article is Shi'aSunni relations.
Can you explain how these two differing statements can be reconciled?
ohhcuppycakee
Active Member
Please don't take this guy as a poster child for all Muslims. We have more rationale.
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YmirGF
Bodhisattva in Recovery
Indeed. Though their thinking is quite instructive, it is better to just let their comments go. Not much is gained in such interactions.
As far as the topic goes, I was under the assumption that the hostilities between Shia and Sunni factions was over the succession (of who would lead the Ummah after the death of Muhammad) and not so much over who was a true Muslim. The Shia wanted Ali to succeed Muhammad and Abu Bakr was selected by the Sunni. From what I recall, that is what caused the original rift.
jamaesi
To Save A Lamb
YmirGF
Bodhisattva in Recovery
Precisely. I should have said that the choice of successor led to what we now know as the Sunni and Shia. Prior to that they were just one big happy family under Muhammad.
gnostic
The Lost One
ohhcuppycake said:
I know that you directed your reply to looncall, but oh, I don't think all Muslims are like asa120.
I think he or she had developed instant dislike for me because of previous thread in Qur'anic Debates - sharia and honor killing.
No matter how many times I have apologizes for mis-reading or misunderstanding his or her posts (because his or her English is not every good), he or she won't let it go. I don't expect his or her forgiveness nor do I expect his or her apology (he or she had personally insulted me)
He or she has now follow me to this thread - thrashing it without even reading the OP properly.
As to asa120:
asa120 said:
Sorry, asa120, but this is not about topic is not about Islam, but about Shia and Sunni. Stick with the topic or leave, because I no longer have patience with you ranting at me.
gnostic
The Lost One
jamaesi said:
So from the article written by Sumbul Ali-Karamali, it is more of political issue on who should lead the Muslims (after Muhammad's death), and not a religious issue. And I understand they both considered themselves as "Muslims".
But even with the article's explanation, I still don't understand why hostilities still erupt, on and off, over 1200 years later.
Why do one side persecute the other and vice versa in matter that should have disappeared?
jamaesi
To Save A Lamb
Yo
Your problem here is you're thinking it's the religious difference is what causes the strife. It's not. If you want an easy answer, ethnicity is what causes problems, not religious differences. If you're really interested in what causes strife between Sunni and Shi'a Muslims, you are going to take it on a conflict by conflict basis. I wouldn't mind discussing this topic, but it's incredibly broad. You'll have to narrow it down to a certain timeframe or event at a time.
Your problem here is you're thinking it's the religious difference is what causes the strife. It's not. If you want an easy answer, ethnicity is what causes problems, not religious differences. If you're really interested in what causes strife between Sunni and Shi'a Muslims, you are going to take it on a conflict by conflict basis. I wouldn't mind discussing this topic, but it's incredibly broad. You'll have to narrow it down to a certain timeframe or event at a time.
ohhcuppycakee
Active Member
The problem is the religious practices began to differ as well. I don't think it is a big enough difference to call most groups outside of the realm of Islam though. And also, there's a lot of grudges held because of a long history of persecution. For example, the Ummayad Caliphate severely oppressed Shi'a Islam for political reasons.
gnostic
The Lost One
jamaesi said:
I don't know how to go about narrowing it down, jamaesi.
jamaesi said:
You said it could be ethnic-based - Shia and Sunni. But starsoul described Sunni and Shia as 2 different schools of thought back in post 4. I think the reason why starsoul (but correct me if I wrong, starsoul or jamaesi) that the shia and sunni shouldn't be seen as 2 different sects, because he (or she) believed that they are schools of thought.
Can "school of thought" be thought of as the same "ethnicity"?
Ethnicity and school of thought are 2 different things, aren't they?
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