True Muslims: Sunni vs Shia

[gnostic]

And also, there's a lot of grudges held because of a long history of persecution. For example, the Ummayad Caliphate severely oppressed Shi'a Islam for political reasons.

Yes, it seem to be a long time to hold grudges.

If it is political problem than that grudges should have disappeared after some generations or centuries have passed. But it is not, and it didn't.

For the grudges to last over a millennium, then there must be something more deeply rooted in their hostility and resentment than just merely political.

Hence it is why I am asking these types of questions.

 

[jamaesi]

When I say ethnicity, I am referring to actual ethnic groups. I'll even throw in the obvious and say tribalism has its large ugly hand in a lot of this strife. I am Muslim Punjabi, for example. There's a lot of strife between Punjabis and Pashtuns and we're both mostly Sunni Muslims. Ethnicity and tribal afflilation are far more important than religion in this. This applies to all religious groups in the greater Middle East. There's a lot of apathy for exactly what religion your neighbour is unless it's inflamed by some other reason like oh, Britian restructing your country and putting a different ethnic group who happens to be a different religion than you in charge.

You really have to go case by case with different caliphates and rulers to find out the reasons for strife. Some of them were just ******** with some personal vednetta they put into law. If you're looking for an easy answer here, you are just not going to find it. It's dismissive to just handwave over this and go oh but what's the one reason they fight and they've just been fighting forever. We haven't been fighting forever, for one, and the reasons for fighting are complex.

 

[gnostic]

When I say ethnicity, I am referring to actual ethnic groups. I'll even throw in the obvious and say tribalism has its large ugly hand in a lot of this strife. I am Muslim Punjabi, for example. There's a lot of strife between Punjabis and Pashtuns and we're both mostly Sunni Muslims. Ethnicity and tribal afflilation are far more important than religion in this. This applies to all religious groups in the greater Middle East. There's a lot of apathy for exactly what religion your neighbour is unless it's inflamed by some other reason like oh, Britian restructing your country and putting a different ethnic group who happens to be a different religion than you in charge.

You really have to go case by case with different caliphates and rulers to find out the reasons for strife. Some of them were just ******** with some personal vednetta they put into law. If you're looking for an easy answer here, you are just not going to find it. It's dismissive to just handwave over this and go oh but what's the one reason they fight and they've just been fighting forever. We haven't been fighting forever, for one, and the reasons for fighting are complex.

Ok, that make sense.

 

[Looncall]

Yo

Your problem here is you're thinking it's the religious difference is what causes the strife. It's not. If you want an easy answer, ethnicity is what causes problems, not religious differences. If you're really interested in what causes strife between Sunni and Shi'a Muslims, you are going to take it on a conflict by conflict basis. I wouldn't mind discussing this topic, but it's incredibly broad. You'll have to narrow it down to a certain timeframe or event at a time.

I have the impression that the difference is exploited by unscrupulous clerics for their own ends (strife in Iraq comes to mind). The riots etc seem often to occur after Friday prayers or after some statement by a cleric. Is that an accurate impression?

 

[ohhcuppycakee]

Yes, it seem to be a long time to hold grudges.

If it is political problem than that grudges should have disappeared after some generations or centuries have passed. But it is not, and it didn't.

For the grudges to last over a millennium, then there must be something more deeply rooted in their hostility and resentment than just merely political.

Hence it is why I am asking these types of questions.

The problem is the oppression and violence continues. Just look at Pakistan for example. Shi'a and Sufi places of worship are often a target for bombs.

 

[gnostic]

Am I wrong in asking questions here?

I am not an American. I don't live in the US. I don't work for NATO or for the media. I have never serve in the armed force or the peacekeeper. I don't own gun or knife (weapon).

So I don't understand you, asa120, or your problem with me or my topic.

 

[jamaesi]

I have the impression that the difference is exploited by unscrupulous clerics for their own ends (strife in Iraq comes to mind). The riots etc seem often to occur after Friday prayers or after some statement by a cleric. Is that an accurate impression?

That would be accurate. Divide and conquer.

 

[asa120]

I highlighted your statement in red above. This is quote from Wikipedia:
"According to one estimate, as of early 2008, 1,121 Muslim suicide bombers have blown themselves up in Iraq.[68] Sunni suicide bombers have targeted not only thousands of civilians,[69] but mosques, shrines,[70] wedding and funeral processions,[71] markets, hospitals, offices, and streets.
On the Shia side, in early February 2006 militia-dominated government death squads were reportedly "tortur[ing] to death or summarily" executing "hundreds" of Sunnis "every month in Baghdad alone," many arrested at random.[81][

Article is Shi'a–Sunni relations.

Can you explain how these two differing statements can be reconciled?

thank you very much again i ask muslim not to respond pls

2 all statistiques are irrelevante by the way and i wil poove it to you
now if you take for an exemple the crisitian world like america and europe
crisitanity i belive i dont know aboute it but i think it call for decencyand it s againste adultry = sex out side of marriage cristianity choot it it in evry way i belive thy call the children out side of marriage ,,,,,,,, e very bad word
but if you take the statistiques of children out side of marriage and if you compare between america with have 50/100 ,in urope 80/100 and you compare it to e country like india who are idol worshiper and thy are not even belivers 3/100 you will find that stastiques do not apply on the practice of belivers but hty have decency and stats poove that
now the question did jesus call for thise type of practice noo way crisitianity call for decency and appreciate marry for here decency
but the statistique show are non berliver folow represent the message better than cristians
in e lot of times you cant judje concepts by there practice and
mybee you are looking to stats bias and used to justife the war againste iraq where a lot of the claims fell with time like nucliare weapons and that there is teroriste in iraq wish is not true and even democracy and e lot of claims that with time the americains them selves question since the election of obamai belive that in compaine of obma he use thise message he say no more lies aboute the war in iraq

 

[rusra02]

thank you very much again i ask muslim not to respond pls

2 all statistiques are irrelevante by the way and i wil poove it to you
now if you take for an exemple the crisitian world like america and europe
crisitanity i belive i dont know aboute it but i think it call for decencyand it s againste adultry = sex out side of marriage cristianity choot it it in evry way i belive thy call the children out side of marriage ,,,,,,,, e very bad word
but if you take the statistiques of children out side of marriage and if you compare between america with have 50/100 ,in urope 80/100 and you compare it to e country like india who are idol worshiper and thy are not even belivers 3/100 you will find that stastiques do not apply on the practice of belivers but hty have decency and stats poove that
now the question did jesus call for thise type of practice noo way crisitianity call for decency and appreciate marry for here decency
but the statistique show are non berliver folow represent the message better than cristians
in e lot of times you cant judje concepts by there practice and
mybee you are looking to stats bias and used to justife the war againste iraq where a lot of the claims fell with time like nucliare weapons and that there is teroriste in iraq wish is not true and even democracy and e lot of claims that with time the americains them selves question since the election of obamai belive that in compaine of obma he use thise message he say no more lies aboute the war in iraq

My post was not to defend so-called "Christian" nations or their practices. It is true that most professed "christians" do not follow the Christ. I was responding to the post that said sunni and shia did not fight or kill each other. The facts are they do fight and kill each other. I have no political agenda in saying this. Whether the Muslim faith condones such conduct or not, adherents to these Muslim sects do practice violence, as many professed "Christians" do also.

 

[Landerage]

Sunni or Shia are just names that in my personal opinion should be erased. After all God says the believers are Muslims, and we are all Muslims. And the prophet Muhammed pbuh insist alot on the unity of the Muslims, and to always maintain that unity. It is so sad to see muslim groups being divided over very silly reasons whatever those reasons are. The important thing is to keep our faith high, and follow the Qur'an and to stay related to the core of Islam and leave the little details and minor practices behind our back. Sunni being Sunni and Shia being Shia is only touching the surface of Islam and not getting to the core. Muslims should realize that these terms are a open door for the demon to step in and spread corruption and division, and I wish for all Muslims to fight that and close that door.

 

[Awoon]

Are the centuries of hostilities and conflicts between the Sunni and Shia about who are the "true Muslims"?

Your thoughts, thank you.

When America looses its economic and materialistic base thinking and becomes a desert, the religious wars will start here amongst Christians.

 

[Tamar]

Am I wrong in asking questions here?

I am not an American. I don't live in the US. I don't work for NATO or for the media. I have never serve in the armed force or the peacekeeper. I don't own gun or knife (weapon).

So I don't understand you, asa120, or your problem with me or my topic.

I believe asa120 is just feeling defensive. There was not a problem with this topic . "Are the centuries of hostilities and conflicts between the Sunni and Shia about who are the "true Muslims"?

I believe this question comes up not only in Islam but other religions as well, and when it does violence sometimes follows.

 

[muslim-]

Shias insult and cast doubts on sacred figures of mainstream Sunni Muslims. After the death of the prophet, some claimed Ali raa was God even. In the end they settled on infallibility of him and his family, and 12 of them as infallibles who are pretty much are on the same level of prophets.

From a Sunni point of view, this was only to attack Islam from within, after failing to ending on the outside, as they go against the main messege of Islam which is directing worship ONLY to God, and worship graves of the dead, and call unto Ali, Hussain etc instead of God.

[youtube]P-jsrfCjkzg[/youtube]
Shia worship of the grave of Al Hussain, is this Islam? Monotheism, or Tawheed - YouTube

They curse the prophets companions and even his wife. As a result, some went on to say the Qur'aan was corrupted by the closest companions. Whenever theres political turmoil, they thrive, and continue to cast doubts on everyone.

This is why on Shia Fatwa sites, you never see them quoting evidence from Quraan or Sunnah, because they practically eliminated their authority (yes they say otherwise, but again this is from a Sunni), leaving authority only to their religious leaders. They dont have an authentic book of hadeeth at all, so they refer to scholars whod accept/reject hadeeths based on convenience.

[youtube]5NbGpm_PzHI[/youtube]
Sunni vs Shia debate on Hadeeth , shia sheikh gets owned - with English subtitles - YouTube

Soon later, they developed the concept of Khums (literally meaning 1/5th), and even today, they give 1/5th of their income to scholars (not the poor). The result is people like Sistani are now billionaires. This is because they say the 12th Imam was born and disappeared in the cave. So his share of khums must be given to the scholars who act on his behalf until he returns.

Shiasm went through many phases, and its not just the 12 Imamer Shias although they are the majority. Theres Alawees like the president of Syria, Isma'elees, and Zaidees (the last being the closest to Sunnis in thought). Today, they have a religious/political hierarchy in Iran, whos leader is supposedly the "deputy" of the Mahdi who entered a cave over a 1000 years ago, waiting for him to return. Til then, they continue to collect Khums money on his behalf

So its not only about everyone claiming to be correct. Ash'arees and others claim to be correct too, and theres more Ash'arees than Shias but they differ in interpretation on the attributes of God and things like that, they dont curse the companions or wives of the prophet etc. Many today use the term "Sunni" loosly, as if it meant as opposed to Shias, and as if they are two equal rivals, and this isnt accurate at all.

Generally, we consider their leaders non Muslim. And theres a difference of opinion about their laymen, most considering them Muslim but misguided due to ignorance.

 

[muslim-]

Sunni or Shia are just names that in my personal opinion should be erased. After all God says the believers are Muslims, and we are all Muslims. And the prophet Muhammed pbuh insist alot on the unity of the Muslims, and to always maintain that unity. It is so sad to see muslim groups being divided over very silly reasons whatever those reasons are. The important thing is to keep our faith high, and follow the Qur'an and to stay related to the core of Islam and leave the little details and minor practices behind our back. Sunni being Sunni and Shia being Shia is only touching the surface of Islam and not getting to the core. Muslims should realize that these terms are a open door for the demon to step in and spread corruption and division, and I wish for all Muslims to fight that and close that door.

Muslims by name with different beliefs? How about the nation of Islam. They say God is Fard Muhammad and Muhammad is Elijah Muhammad, and that God is black etc, and that they believe in all scriptures. By consensus they arent Muslim and Christians and Jews are closer to Islam than them. Things like this, or graveworship in Shiasm and considering the companions non Muslim, are certainly not minor issues.

What counts is beliefs, titles/labels dont matter.

Shias in history have never had any real enemies other than Sunnis. Has anyone from ANY religion attacked Muslims during HAJJ (piligrimage) other than Shias? sent by Iran?

Heres a Shia talking about it. [youtube]trs-rVcSbHM[/youtube]
Dreams / Aspirations of the Iranian Regime - True face of the regime & attitude towards Sunnis - YouTube

 

[muslim-]

I don't know how to go about narrowing it down, jamaesi.



You said it could be ethnic-based - Shia and Sunni. But starsoul described Sunni and Shia as 2 different schools of thought back in post 4. I think the reason why starsoul (but correct me if I wrong, starsoul or jamaesi) that the shia and sunni shouldn't be seen as 2 different sects, because he (or she) believed that they are schools of thought.

Can "school of thought" be thought of as the same "ethnicity"?

Ethnicity and school of thought are 2 different things, aren't they?

Schools of thought is in reference to schools of Fiqh. But they have the same Aqeedah/beliefs/creed. Shias have a different religion altogether, its most definitly not a "school of thought".

Shias allow graveworship.
Shias allow temporary marriages (for 2 hours even)
Shias believe in 12 infallible Imams.
Shias insult main Islamic figures of Sunnis and consider them non Muslim.
Shias practice Taqiyyah and consider it a virtue and 9/10 of their religion

I could go on and on in main differences in belief.

Yes race does have something to do with it in Iran at least. As the most hated figure in Shiasm is Umar raa, the second Caliph. Why? He was the one who ended the Persian empire in Iran. So some persians who disliked Arabs tried to maintain a different identity through Shiasm. Til this day, they have the grave of the killer of Umar raa, as a mosque that is visited in Iran. And his killer wasnt even Muslim. (Theres a video of it on youtube, with all sorts of cursing of Umar written on its entrance).


Heres a "liberal" Iraqi Shia mentioning this. Hes considered a "liberal" and Shias dont really accept him, but in this particular clip, what he says is pretty correct.

[youtube]Qyjjuh8UIfk[/youtube]
why do shiites / shia / shias hate Umar bin Khatab ( sahaba ) ??? - YouTube

 

[Straw Dog]

Are the centuries of hostilities and conflicts between the Sunni and Shia about who are the "true Muslims"?

Your thoughts, thank you.

Sunni and Shia? Who are the True Muslims?

What about the Sufi? Everyone always seems to overlook them. I don't know if they're anymore "true" than the others, but they tend to be my favorite tradition. Probably because I can relate to them a little more.

 

[ohhcuppycakee]

Shias insult and cast doubts on sacred figures of mainstream Sunni Muslims. After the death of the prophet, some claimed Ali raa was God even. In the end they settled on infallibility of him and his family, and 12 of them as infallibles who are pretty much are on the same level of prophets.

From a Sunni point of view, this was only to attack Islam from within, after failing to ending on the outside, as they go against the main messege of Islam which is directing worship ONLY to God, and worship graves of the dead, and call unto Ali, Hussain etc instead of God.

They curse the prophets companions and even his wife. As a result, some went on to say the Qur'aan was corrupted by the closest companions. Whenever theres political turmoil, they thrive, and continue to cast doubts on everyone.

This is why on Shia Fatwa sites, you never see them quoting evidence from Quraan or Sunnah, because they practically eliminated their authority (yes they say otherwise, but again this is from a Sunni), leaving authority only to their religious leaders. They dont have an authentic book of hadeeth at all, so they refer to scholars whod accept/reject hadeeths based on convenience.

Soon later, they developed the concept of Khums (literally meaning 1/5th), and even today, they give 1/5th of their income to scholars (not the poor). The result is people like Sistani are now billionaires. This is because they say the 12th Imam was born and disappeared in the cave. So his share of khums must be given to the scholars who act on his behalf until he returns.

Shiasm went through many phases, and its not just the 12 Imamer Shias although they are the majority. Theres Alawees like the president of Syria, Isma'elees, and Zaidees (the last being the closest to Sunnis in thought). Today, they have a religious/political hierarchy in Iran, whos leader is supposedly the "deputy" of the Mahdi who entered a cave over a 1000 years ago, waiting for him to return. Til then, they continue to collect Khums money on his behalf

So its not only about everyone claiming to be correct. Ash'arees and others claim to be correct too, and theres more Ash'arees than Shias but they differ in interpretation on the attributes of God and things like that, they dont curse the companions or wives of the prophet etc. Many today use the term "Sunni" loosly, as if it meant as opposed to Shias, and as if they are two equal rivals, and this isnt accurate at all.

Generally, we consider their leaders non Muslim. And theres a difference of opinion about their laymen, most considering them Muslim but misguided due to ignorance.

First of all, not all Shi'a Muslims curse the sahabah. Many Shi'a scholars say this is NOT okay to do. I myself will criticize the actions of the sahabah, but cursing them is not right. And I don't think criticizing the actions of some sahabah makes you a bad Muslim.

[youtube]aRYdg0ch15g[/youtube]
Nasrallah on Cursing Sahaba [Eng] -

Second of all, this idea of there being 12 Imams is found even in various Sunni ahadith.

Narrated Jabir bin Samura: I heard Muhammad saying, "There will be twelve Muslim rulers." He then said a sentence which I did not hear. My father said, "All of them (those rulers) will be from Quraish." [Sahih Bukhari]

Narrated Jabir bin Samura: I heard Muhammad saying, "The (Islamic) religion will continue until the Hour (day of resurrection), having twelve Caliphs for you, all of them will be from Quraysh." [Sahih Muslim]

The Prophet said: "This religion remains standing until there are twelve vicegerents over you, all of them agreeable to the nation, all of them from Quraysh." [Sunan Abu Dawood]

The Prophet said: "There will be after me twelve Amir (Prince/Ruler), all of them from Quraysh." [Tirmidhi]

Masrooq rates that someone asked Abdullah Ibn Masood, "O Abaa Abd al-Rahmaan, did you ask the Messenger of Allah how many caliphs will rule this nation?". Abdullah Ibn Masood replied, "Yes, we did ask the Messenger of Allah and he replied, "Twelve, like the number of chiefs (nuqabaa) of Bani Israel." [Ahmad]

Can you find the phrase four rightly guided caliphs in ahadith...?

Calling on anyone other than Allah (SWT) for help is absolutely haram in Islam. Period. Any Shi'a you see doing this is misguided. Mainly you see the Ismailis doing this, no offense at all to them. Their standard greeting is "Ya Ali Madad."

Lol. Shi'a Muslims do not believe the Qur'an has been changed by anyone. I don't even know where people pull this misconception from. There must be some deviant group out there that believes or did believe that. I've never met any Shi'a Muslims who believed something so blasphemous.

Shi'a Muslims do follow the Sunnah, but only trust traditions narrated from the pure sources (Ahlul Bait). The reason Shi'a Muslims believe Ahlul Bait is pure is because of this verse in the Qur'an:
"Allah only desires to keep away the uncleanness from you, O people of the House! and to purify you a (thorough) purifying."

Oh, and as for taqiyyah, it is only supposed to be used when your life is in danger.

I think you will find Shi'a Islam varies a lot. I generally don't like the terms Sunni or Shi'a, but when I hear someone saying bad things about Shi'a Islam, I have to defend it.

 

[ohhcuppycakee]

Sunni and Shia? Who are the True Muslims?

What about the Sufi? Everyone always seems to overlook them. I don't know if they're anymore "true" than the others, but they tend to be my favorite tradition. Probably because I can relate to them a little more.

There are both Sunni and Shi'a Sufis. They are something within both Sunni and Shi'a Islam.

 

[Straw Dog]

There are both Sunni and Shi'a Sufis. They are something within both Sunni and Shi'a Islam.

Ah, I see. Thanks for clarifying that for me.

 

[muslim-]

First of all, not all Shi'a Muslims curse the sahabah. Many Shi'a scholars say this is NOT okay to do. I myself will criticize the actions of the sahabah, but cursing them is not right. And I don't think criticizing the actions of some sahabah makes you a bad Muslim.

[youtube]aRYdg0ch15g[/youtube]
Nasrallah on Cursing Sahaba [Eng] -

Second of all, this idea of there being 12 Imams is found even in various Sunni ahadith.

Narrated Jabir bin Samura: I heard Muhammad saying, "There will be twelve Muslim rulers." He then said a sentence which I did not hear. My father said, "All of them (those rulers) will be from Quraish." [Sahih Bukhari]

Narrated Jabir bin Samura: I heard Muhammad saying, "The (Islamic) religion will continue until the Hour (day of resurrection), having twelve Caliphs for you, all of them will be from Quraysh." [Sahih Muslim]

The Prophet said: "This religion remains standing until there are twelve vicegerents over you, all of them agreeable to the nation, all of them from Quraysh." [Sunan Abu Dawood]

The Prophet said: "There will be after me twelve Amir (Prince/Ruler), all of them from Quraysh." [Tirmidhi]

Masrooq rates that someone asked Abdullah Ibn Masood, "O Abaa Abd al-Rahmaan, did you ask the Messenger of Allah how many caliphs will rule this nation?". Abdullah Ibn Masood replied, "Yes, we did ask the Messenger of Allah and he replied, "Twelve, like the number of chiefs (nuqabaa) of Bani Israel." [Ahmad]

Can you find the phrase four rightly guided caliphs in ahadith...?

Calling on anyone other than Allah (SWT) for help is absolutely haram in Islam. Period. Any Shi'a you see doing this is misguided. Mainly you see the Ismailis doing this, no offense at all to them. Their standard greeting is "Ya Ali Madad."

Lol. Shi'a Muslims do not believe the Qur'an has been changed by anyone. I don't even know where people pull this misconception from. There must be some deviant group out there that believes or did believe that. I've never met any Shi'a Muslims who believed something so blasphemous.

Shi'a Muslims do follow the Sunnah, but only trust traditions narrated from the pure sources (Ahlul Bait). The reason Shi'a Muslims believe Ahlul Bait is pure is because of this verse in the Qur'an:
"Allah only desires to keep away the uncleanness from you, O people of the House! and to purify you a (thorough) purifying."

Oh, and as for taqiyyah, it is only supposed to be used when your life is in danger.

I think you will find Shi'a Islam varies a lot. I generally don't like the terms Sunni or Shi'a, but when I hear someone saying bad things about Shi'a Islam, I have to defend it.

First of all, pure doesnt mean 12 infallibles with one disappearing in the cave with others collecting Khums on his behalf. Secondly, Muslim rulers doesnt mean Imams in Shia sense, nor does it say anything about infallibility.

Since believing that Imamate of the 12 is a pillar of Iman in Shiasm, using such hadeeths and verses that dont say it explicitly, tells you it was made up. If it were so important like an article of faith, it would have been mentioned at least the same number of times prayer, zakat, Hajj, and so on were.


And on top of this the Shia Imams like Ja'far Al Sadiq werent even Shias themselves. This is why theres loads of fabrications against him, especially that the sciences of hadeeth authentication in Shiasm developed centuries later, and basically copying the Sunni scholars of Mustalah Al Hadeeth.

On top of all this, Ali himself was among those who supported the Caliphs Abu Bakr, Umar, and Uthman. So what they attribute to him, is also, not true. Same thing with Al Hasan Ibn Ali.

The household of the prophet peace be upon him have nothing to do with Shias. They just use their name to gain followers.

According to many Shia scholars, it was Shias ironically, that asked for Al Hussain to go to them and when he did, with nearly 70 from his family and children etc, they killed him like they killed his cousin Muslim Ibn Aqeel. Then they formed Jaysh Al Tawabeen ( the army of repenters) repenting from it, as the killers of Al Hussain were :

1- Ubaidullah Bin Ziyad, he was in Alis army in Siffeen battle, so he was a Shia.
His father also was made ruler of Al Basrah, by Ali raa.

2- Shamr Bin Dhi Al Jawshan, also in Alis army in Siffeen.

They are both in Shia source "Rijaal Al Shia" (Shia men).

3- Sinan Ibn Anas Al Nakh'i, his father was also a Shia in Alis army in Siffeen.

Many Shia scholars like Murtadha Al Mutahhiri and others confirm this. Even today theres plenty of Shia scholars on youtube saying the same.

Finally, sometimes Shias quote "Sunni books" in a deceptive way inline with their Taqiyyah methods. For instance, Al Tabari collected everything said with chains of narrators and said it is up to the reader to research authenticity. Nearly all the narrations with Shia ideas in them, have "Abi Mikhnaf" and/or a few others in the chain, who was a known liar, and a Shia whos narrations were never accepted.

As for Hasan NasrAllah, what he says for PR purposes is irrelevant, and only a practice of Taqiyyah. Top Shia scholars in history have cursing and insults all over their books. If they condemn those scholars, then there would be no Shiasm left, as they are the top figures.

If he were truthful, he would reject building a mosque over the grave of Abu Lu'luah Al Majoosi (non Muslim killer of Umar raa) in Iran, with curses written at the entrance. Not just curses, but famous "authentic" ones like the dua of Al Jibt and Al Taghoot. It is also a practice at any Hussainiyyah gathering you go to. Their Taqiyyah for PR purposes says nothing about their beliefs and doctorine that have existed in their books for centuries.

Back to hadeeths, the problem with Shia Taqiyya methods, is that what they say works with those with no knowledge of hadeeth. They dont have an authentic book of hadeeth like Bukhari and Muslim. Can you name even one? Theres none. So, their scholars just pick and choose from them whatever they find convenient at any given time. So in other words, they eliminate all references, making the references limited to "men" that have a hiarchy leading up to the "deputy" of the hidden 12th Imam, giving them the religious authority basically.

This is precisly why Shiasm changed developed over many centuries. Their "scholars" would preach whatever fits the time.

This was the same problem the Sunni debator in the video above faced. They dont have any criteria for authentication, so compound that with Taqiyyah, discussing things with them becomes impossible. Please see this video again and observe.

[youtube]5NbGpm_PzHI[/youtube]
Sunni vs Shia debate on Hadeeth , shia sheikh gets owned - with English subtitles - YouTube

I am glad that you say calling anyone other than Allah, is wrong. As this is precisely what Shirk is. However, Shia scholars say otherwise. The following, is a teacher at the top Shia religious institute in Iran, the Hawza of Qum, Iran. So its not just anyone. Ali Al Koorani is well known.

[youtube]O70o7S-ii60[/youtube]
In Shi'ism asking and praying directly to Allah is the longest way! - YouTube

Never will you find any Shia condemning him or anyone like him, although this is related to the most basic belief of Islam, monotheism. Its not just an issue of how to wash before prayer etc.

Also, please see this. The following is a famous religious "singer" in Iran, and close to the "deputy" of Al Mahdi, Khamen'i, and his recordings are everywhere. Does anyone condemn him? No. Why? because usually they just fill people with emotions, just enough to block any logic or common sense. No one would even dare to talk like that in any Sunni community.

[youtube]K6GXrd8BMcc[/youtube]
IRANIAN SUNNI scholar explains: Who are the REAL Gods of the Shia? - YouTube

Also, anyone who knows Shia communities well, especially in their original countries, knows and sees such things all the time. Even when waking up and stretching they would say "Ya Ali", so its not really an Isma'eeli thing at all.

Heres an experience of a convert to Islam, and the beliefs he was taught by Shias regarding this topic. Its extremely widespread and among their top scholars even.

[youtube]TWrI_5AYZAA[/youtube]
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Finally, about the corruption of the Qur'aan, I dont want to fill this window with more videos of their scholars but, it is enough to know, that Al Noori al Turbrusi, wrote a book called "Kashf Al Khitab fee Ithbat Tahreef Kitab Rabb Al Arbab" which means "The clear verdict on the confirmation of the alteration of the book of the Lord of Lords."

No Shia ever condemned him because hes too big a figure. Again I think theres enough videos and this post is already too long (and I apologize for that), but theres so many of them saying such things about the Qur'aan in their lectures, Q & A sessions, and so on. Usually they try to see what the background of the asker or audience is, and give answers accordingly!

A quick final note, Taqiyyah/lying isnt in case of necessity/life threatening situations, as theres quotes from Al Khoui, and many shia narrations and scholars saying its a virtue, and something beloved. I have much to back this but since the post is already pretty long ill just stop here.