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Trump Accuses NYT of being Fake News

This section is a stawman assumption about liberals in general.

I didn't mention liberals in general (I tend not to use liberal the way Americans do anyway). What I said was: "among a certain group of educated left to centre right people".

Why must any criticism of the right's tactics (not true policy positions, mind you. . . Just their tactics) be met with this strawman that we automatically think the other side is stupid or deluded.

Imo referring to generic fallacies without supporting explanation tends to inhibit fruitful discussion.

I never said you thought anything, I referred to a certain group of people who hold the views I outlined. There is ample evidence of these views being espoused by many people in the media and beyond.

I'm happy to clarify that I don't believe every left leaning person holds these views (and that some centre right leaning people do hold these views).

Not sure I made that claim here or anywhere. . . I am suggesting that the claims "NYT is fake news," or "clearly liberally biased" are unsubstantiated claims.

Also, I am specifically asking those who agree with Trump to lay out evidence or reasoning for their claims. . . Why does that imply my liberal views are superior?

My comments weren't directed at anybody in particular, just a general observation regarding what Revoltingest said.

I wasn't really addressing the OP directly, but NYT was editorially pro-Clinton, that is on the record. Newspapers pick sides in elections, that's nothing new.

As to why they underestimated Trump support, this was likely not deliberate bias, just the effects of groupthink.

Trump jumped the shark on FAKE NEWS! a long time ago rendering the expression practically meaningless now. All mainstream media outlets are frequently wrong or make mistakes though, making consumers misinformed on many issues. This is not a specific failing of the NYT but a feature of modern mainstream media of all kinds. The only way to avoid being misinformed is to not consume the media in the first place.

. . . Why does that imply my liberal views are superior?

I wasn't referring to you and have no idea what views you do or don't hold, but the Progressive Rationalist worldview certainly holds its views as being superior because those that differ significantly must be 'irrational' and irrationality is the one thing that Progressive Rationalists cannot abide.

What did you think of the ideas in the quote about 'coalition mindedness' (something that all humans suffer from)? Agree/disagree?
 

Kuzcotopia

If you can read this, you are as lucky as I am.
I didn't mention liberals in general (I tend not to use liberal the way Americans do anyway). What I said was: "among a certain group of educated left to centre right people".

Imo referring to generic fallacies without supporting explanation tends to inhibit fruitful discussion.

I never said you thought anything, I referred to a certain group of people who hold the views I outlined. There is ample evidence of these views being espoused by many people in the media and beyond.

I'm happy to clarify that I don't believe every left leaning person holds these views (and that some centre right leaning people do hold these views).



My comments weren't directed at anybody in particular, just a general observation regarding what Revoltingest said.

I wasn't really addressing the OP directly, but NYT was editorially pro-Clinton, that is on the record. Newspapers pick sides in elections, that's nothing new.

As to why they underestimated Trump support, this was likely not deliberate bias, just the effects of groupthink.

Trump jumped the shark on FAKE NEWS! a long time ago rendering the expression practically meaningless now. All mainstream media outlets are frequently wrong or make mistakes though, making consumers misinformed on many issues. This is not a specific failing of the NYT but a feature of modern mainstream media of all kinds. The only way to avoid being misinformed is to not consume the media in the first place.

I wasn't referring to you and have no idea what views you do or don't hold, but the Progressive Rationalist worldview certainly holds its views as being superior because those that differ significantly must be 'irrational' and irrationality is the one thing that Progressive Rationalists cannot abide.

What did you think of the ideas in the quote about 'coalition mindedness' (something that all humans suffer from)? Agree/disagree?

Yes. But I fail to see its practical usefulness. . . It's not why Dems lost the most recent election, or why Pubs won.

Yes I inferred "liberals" when you claimed no such thing, but it felt implied. You were responding to the thread after all, and unless you were pontificating into empty space (ah. . . Philosophy), I have to assume that your point has at least something to do with the OP and my desire to see legitimate justifications of media bias/methodology.

But the danger here is that what your saying will get practical use, regardless of your high minded intentions. Your larger point provides more fodder to allow anyone anywhere to make unsubstantiated claims about liberal media bias, and then dismiss criticism of those claims, especially by a liberal such as myself. as merely blindness, groupthink, irrational, etc.

Again, the whole intent of this thread is to suggest an attempt to explain the methodology behind those clams, independent of my own apparent biases after all.

BTW, what are the practical policy positions of Progressive Rationalists for this particular US government cycle? I have no idea what your talking about, or how it applies to legislation or governance. . . But let's say this is a real thing. . . Your telling me that anyone who ascribes to this position might think it's superior to other positions?

Obvious point is obvious. Anyone who claims a political/philosophical membership will probably think their position is superior. Your telling me that other positions are humbler?
 
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metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Those who get their "news" from the Fox Propaganda Channel and Lush Limbaugh certainly would feel that an internationally acclaimed icon like the NYT is "fake news".
 

Kuzcotopia

If you can read this, you are as lucky as I am.
Well only way how I figured out who is lying or not. There has been a world wide march against Monsanto going on for years that none of these mainstream medias has not covered it at all. But they had covered the stories about the pandas at the zoo given birth to their millionth cub. They will not reported about this march, it is because they doesn't want to bring in awareness to there products. And George Soros owns the majority of their stocks. And so from ever since then, a lot of Activist knows that the media are controlled by the Establishment. But the reporters that does a report about them,that they whines up being fired. And so, if you want to find out about fake news, you better start listening to the real activist that has been dealing with the media for decades. But not these activist like BLM and etc.. that are in someone's pocket.


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You attempted to substantiate your claim of media bias by making more unsubstantiated claims.

But this aside, your clip is from a documentary I've seen, called The Corporation. Those were Fox News Reporters. . . George Soros owns Fox News now?

SMH.
 

habiru

Active Member
You attempted to substantiate your claim of media bias by making more unsubstantiated claims.

But this aside, your clip is from a documentary I've seen, called The Corporation. Those were Fox News Reporters. . . George Soros owns Fox News now?

SMH.
He doesn't owns Fox News. He might controls some of the small local affiliates, but not the conservative news. He is too busy trying to destroy them.

. George Soros, the Democratic Party and Hillary Clinton

 

Kuzcotopia

If you can read this, you are as lucky as I am.
He doesn't owns Fox News. He might controls some of the small local affiliates, but not the conservative news. He is too busy trying to destroy them.

. George Soros, the Democratic Party and Hillary Clinton


Okay, so you've posted another link and video. Can you explain to me why you trust this as a source of information? What makes you believe this claim?

Remember, the goal of the OP is to establish the methodology your are using to make claims, such as the one you are making right now.
 
Yes. But I fail to see its practical usefulness. . . It's not why Dems lost the most recent election, or why Pubs won.

The perceived dismissive attitude of some Dems towards those who disagreed with mainstream liberal orthodoxy was part of the reason they lost. Basket of deplorables?

But the danger here is that what your saying will get practical use, regardless of your high minded intentions. Your larger point provides more fodder to allow anyone anywhere to make unsubstantiated claims about liberal media bias, and then dismiss criticism of those claims, especially by a liberal such as myself. as merely blindness, groupthink, irrational, etc.

Some right wingers use such arguments to make unsubstantiated and hypocritical claims based on their own 'coalition mindedness'.

This does not rule out the possibility that such arguments can be legitimately applied to a section of the left. If they want to win the election, the Dems need to acknowledge this.


BTW, what are the practical policy positions of Progressive Rationalists for this particular US government cycle? I have no idea what your talking about, or how it applies to legislation or governance. . . But let's say this is a real thing. . . Your telling me that anyone who ascribes to this position might think it's superior to other positions?

It is not really a partisan identity, it is mostly centre left, but extends to some on the centre right. From Secular Humanists to some neo-cons

It is really a worldview that rests around the inevitability of the spread of Western liberal democratic ideals, best symbolised by the End of History thesis. It is more about the philosophical underpinnings rather than specific political positions.

Islamic revivalism and now Trump and the rise of nationalism in the West is basically a refutation of this entire worldview, which is why many have such a hard time accepting it. Much better to see it as ignorance and stupidity: a temporary blip rather than accepting that 'liberal progress' is neither inevitable nor universal.
 

habiru

Active Member
Okay, so you've posted another link and video. Can you explain to me why you trust this as a source of information? What makes you believe this claim?

Remember, the goal of the OP is to establish the methodology your are using to make claims, such as the one you are making right now.
It is obvious what they are doing... That there has been so many complaints about President Trump's supporters or the members of his team, all in one time frame. George Soros is being real sloppy at what he does, and which that proves that he is becoming senile. He needs to pace it out a little, but not cramming it all together at one time.

Milwaukee Sheriff David Clarke Threatens To 'Knock Out' Man Who Accused Him Of Harassment | The Huffington Post

In Jefferson County, Colorado, George Soros found 'justice was not for sale'

Judge-Judy-Eye-Roll-Thumb.gif
old_man_walking_slow_ha.gif

tumblr_ne6crjVXNp1s9kvuno4_500.gif
 

Kartari

Active Member
Hi Revoltingest,

A few thoughts.....
- We still have a problem with illegals entering the country, the fact that some have been leaving notwithstanding.
- The "wall" is about increasing security at the border. Of course we already have some physical walls. No doubt he plans to add more, but it's not about a continuous physical wall....rather, it's about what a wall does. This also means more border agents, better monitoring, stronger enforcement.
Btw, a continuous wall would devastate some wildlife, eg, big cats.
- You say he's a "joke", but in the context of his dysfunctional competition, he doesn't look all that terrible.
- He doesn't speak with much precision or forethought.
- Ignorance & falsehood also lurked in Obama's regime, so it's not unique to Trump.

To finally get back to you... I have two points to briefly make.

First of all, it's clear to me that you, being more reasonable and smarter than Trump, are inserting more reasonable ideas into what you imagine Trump's wall plans either are, or should include. He has repeatedly stated he wants to "build a wall." I take this to mean he actually wants to build a wall, as if (a) one did not already exist or (b) he wants to build a second one (though (a) is more likely his idea since he's never mentioned the existent wall). I take this meaning because I speak English well and that's what "build a wall" means in English. He's never stated that he wants to build an additional wall. Nor has he ever stated he wants to extend the wall that's already there. He and his cheering fans have repeatedly stated they want to "build a wall," as if one did not already exist.

If I am wrong, by all means prove me wrong by showing me at least one instance where he's stated his wall building idea is not to be interpreted literally, that he really means to expand the existing wall. I'd bet money you cannot.

As an aside, this actually reminds me of how more intelligent Christians will wave away literal and more ridiculous interpretations of the Bible, opting to instead insert their own more intelligently thought out ideas about loving one another, conveniently ignoring the mass murder, justifications for rape and incest, death, and other insanity.

Second point. I'm not going to get into Hillary's emails and other nonsense now, but I'd surmise that you are at best making false equivalencies concerning both his ex-competition as well as Obama. Just because left- and right-leaning media sources have biases does NOT logically necessitate that they are EQUALLY erroneous. On the contrary, the worst left-leaning MSNBC can be accused of in the past year or so is not giving enough attention to Clinton's problems. They've been quite on target with Trump, though. It's not hard to do in fact, as Trump is quite good at digging his own grave (even if nearly half the country is immune to seeing it) - they just have to show Trump speaking for himself. The right-wing media on the other hand turned Clinton into the Devil Incarnate with their 24/7 Benghazi vigil... while more recently ignoring how Trump's incompetence recently got a Navy Seal officer killed in Yemen, along with civilian casualties including children (two takes: Reuters and Fox News). I also just came across this recent National Review article today, where they poorly attempt to greatly exaggerate equivalencies in an attempt to whitewash Trump's glaring danger to America and the world. For starters, the article presumes as "authoritarian" any or all instances of executive orders. Whereas complaints against Trump are NOT simply about his use of executive power, but revolve around how his executive orders and other decisions as the president are clearly conflicting with and violating our constitutional rights as Americans. it begins in the very first paragraph with an insultingly despicable comparison - Trump is "less" authoritarian because he rescinded transgender bathroom rights?! What makes this move in fact more authoritarian is its impact on Americans' rights. Would we similarly regard him as "less" authoritarian if he could and actually decided to revoke the 13th or 19th Amendment and let the states decide on the rights of non-whites or women? Nor does the National Review admit that Trump has in fact gone beyond mere threats, he's actually begun to bar several media organizations that have been critical of him from White House, while inviting a few that are of low circulation but very right-leaning (including Steve Bannon's own alt-right Breitbart). It's clear Trump is trying to become more and more dictatorial - the first step towards this end, as history reveals, is to de-legitimize the press, silencing all criticism and releasing only propaganda. And once the First Amendment is in practice destroyed, our remaining constitutional rights will fall like dominoes...

Anyway, this is getting longer than I intended... my real point here is that if you rely on right-wing sources for your news and information, you're going to have a skewed worldview where you perceive things like, "Ignorance & falsehood also lurked in Obama's regime, so it's not unique to Trump." In other words, it's not the case that both Obama and Trump were more or less equally fraught with ignorance and falsehoods, only that right-wing media sources attempt to portray them that way, and thereby convince a lot of people to perceive reality that way (as opposed to seeing actual reality). There is no comparison: Trump is demonstrably FAR worse. As Obama once quipped, "If I watched Fox News all the time, I wouldn't vote for me either."
 
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Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Hi Revoltingest,



To finally get back to you... I have two points to briefly make.

First of all, it's clear to me that you, being more reasonable and smarter than Trump, are inserting more reasonable ideas into what you imagine Trump's wall plans either are, or should include. He has repeatedly stated he wants to "build a wall." I take this to mean he actually wants to build a wall, as if (a) one did not already exist or (b) he wants to build a second one (though (a) is more likely his idea since he's never mentioned the existent wall). I take this meaning because I speak English well and that's what "build a wall" means in English. He's never stated that he wants to build an additional wall. Nor has he ever stated he wants to extend the wall that's already there. He and his cheering fans have repeatedly stated they want to "build a wall," as if one did not already exist.

If I am wrong, by all means prove me wrong by showing me at least one instance where he's stated his wall building idea is not to be interpreted literally, that he really means to expand the existing wall. I'd bet money you cannot.

As an aside, this actually reminds me of how more intelligent Christians will wave away literal and more ridiculous interpretations of the Bible, opting to instead insert their own more intelligently thought out ideas about loving one another, conveniently ignoring the mass murder, justifications for rape and incest, death, and other insanity.
Tis difficult to discern what will happen based upon what a politician says he'll do.
I'm just speculating about what is most likely, ie, the "wall" is beefed up security which is effectively a wall.
Regarding the problems he'd be addressing.....
Agents detail 'daily' border fence battle, seek post-Obama 'restart'
Second point. I'm not going to get into Hillary's emails and other nonsense now, but I'd surmise that you are at best making false equivalencies concerning both his ex-competition as well as Obama. Just because left- and right-leaning media sources have biases does NOT logically necessitate that they are EQUALLY erroneous.
You're making the false false equivalency, since I'm not claiming that any sources are equally biased.
One could even make the case that overall bias is even worse in the left direction, when including
the more mainstream media, eg, CBS, NBC, ABC.
But I'm not addressing magnitude to that level of precision.
On the contrary, the worst left-leaning MSNBC can be accused of in the past year or so is not giving enough attention to Clinton's problems. They've been quite on target with Trump, though. It's not hard to do in fact, as Trump is quite good at digging his own grave (even if nearly half the country is immune to seeing it) - they just have to show Trump speaking for himself. The right-wing media on the other hand turned Clinton into the Devil Incarnate with their 24/7 Benghazi vigil... while more recently ignoring how Trump's incompetence recently got a Navy Seal officer killed in Yemen, along with civilian casualties including children (two takes: Reuters and Fox News). I also just came across this recent National Review article today, where they poorly attempt to greatly exaggerate equivalencies in an attempt to whitewash Trump's glaring danger to America and the world. For starters, the article presumes as "authoritarian" any or all instances of executive orders. Whereas complaints against Trump are NOT simply about his use of executive power, but revolve around how his executive orders and other decisions as the president are clearly conflicting with and violating our constitutional rights as Americans. it begins in the very first paragraph with an insultingly despicable comparison - Trump is "less" authoritarian because he rescinded transgender bathroom rights?! What makes this move in fact more authoritarian is its impact on Americans' rights. Would we similarly regard him as "less" authoritarian if he could and actually decided to revoke the 13th or 19th Amendment and let the states decide on the rights of non-whites or women? Nor does the National Review admit that Trump has in fact gone beyond mere threats, he's actually begun to bar several media organizations that have been critical of him from White House, while inviting a few that are of low circulation but very right-leaning (including Steve Bannon's own alt-right Breitbart). It's clear Trump is trying to become more and more dictatorial - the first step towards this end, as history reveals, is to de-legitimize the press, silencing all criticism and releasing only propaganda. And once the First Amendment is in practice destroyed, our remaining constitutional rights will fall like dominoes...
To claim he's more dictatorial would require some real policy or legislative examples.
Anyway, this is getting longer than I intended... my real point here is that if you rely on right-wing sources for your news and information, you're going to have a skewed worldview where you perceive things like, "Ignorance & falsehood also lurked in Obama's regime, so it's not unique to Trump." There is no comparison: Trump is FAR worse. And in relying on right-wing news sources, as Obama once quipped, "If I watched Fox News all the time, I wouldn't vote for me either."
My only radio source is NPR, & BBC via NPR.
I don't do TV news, other than an occasional survey of Fox, OAN, & MSNBC to compare coverage.
Most of my news is the electronic version of print media via Drudge (which spans a wide political spectrum), eg, NYT, Huff Po, Wa Po, Fox, local papers, local TV stations. I skip the worthless ones, eg, Breitbart, Infowars, Alternet. As for periodicals....Smithsonian, Pop Sci, Nat Geographic.
What do you rely upon?
 
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Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
On twitter, about 45 minutes ago.

View attachment 15987

It was only a matter of time. I was actually expecting this in about 6 months, but apparently, he blew his wad and couldn't wait to slowly and insidiously build the narrative the way Steve Bannon wants him to**.

Now one of the top paragons of investigative journalism is being accused of being "fake news."

What a claim.

If you honestly agree with the claim that Trump has made this morning, that the New York Time is "fake news", then you must tell me honestly what method you are using to determine fake from real. You must share which news outlet you watch/read on a daily basis, and provide the methodology on how you discern the difference between fake and real.

Trump seems to have a method. What is it?

If you can't substantiate this claim in any real way, then have have to admit you have sacrificed your own partisan perspective for reality, and must accept that your belief that the NYT charge of "fake news" is an irrational one.

** The first paragraph is unsubstatiated and written to be satirical. Most likely, there is no timeline, and Trump just rage-tweeted. Let me say that again, the President of the United States of America likely rage-tweeted.
Why on earth would I give any credence at all -- especially on the question of what is "fake" -- who is already a proven serial and committed liar on pretty much every topic to which he turns his attention?

Talk about the pot calling the kettle "off-white!" :rolleyes:
 

Kartari

Active Member
Hi R,

Tis difficult to discern what will happen based upon what a politician says he'll do.
I'm just speculating about what is most likely, ie, the "wall" is beefed up security which is effectively a wall.
Regarding the problems he'd be addressing.....
Agents detail 'daily' border fence battle, seek post-Obama 'restart'

Again, we don't have any real reason to believe he actually understands the real problems with our southern border. He clearly fails to understand the basics of the real problems facing this country more broadly, in fact. He instead perpetually Tweets and vents about imagined problems on a daily basis, making blatant threats to imagined national enemies like the press.

Getting back to the border though, ports of entry along the border wall do need more staff and equipment at present. This is NOT due to increased illegal immigration; it's declined over the past decade, in fact. Rather, this is due to new measures set into place which require border staff to abide by more stringent anti-corruption procedures that tie them down. Extending the wall itself will be a waste of billions in taxpayer money, however, so making any reference to building or extending a wall in the context of actual research is nonsensical. Trump's complaints about "all" migrants, documented or otherwise, being "criminals" or "the worst" are entirely unfounded as well, with the low crime rates in port cities like El Paso providing evidence to this fact (Source: BorderFactCheck & WOLA's Oct 2016 Report).

Concerning the Fox article, it is simply factually untrue in a number of ways. For starters, it begins with an anecdote that's extrapolated to imply a rising tide of illegal migrants. This is in fact untrue. Illegal entries do continue to be an issue, but research from the Pew Research Center clearly demonstrates a decline over the past decade of illegal migrants: from a 12.8 million peak in 2007 to a steady decline in 2014 down to 11.7 million. Fox's accusations in your linked article that "agents in Border Patrol say they are still grappling with fallout from the Obama years" are therefore unfounded. Furthermore, Fox's emphasis on anecdotes to the degree of showing video of a few illegal immigrants blowtorching a hole into the fence is clearly, in light of the facts based on research, and coupled by Fox's history of cherry-picking facts and warping stories to favor Republicans and demonize Democrats is clearly intended NOT to report on the truth, but to rile up and anger conservatives into agreeing with Trump's false assertions and unfounded policies.

You're making the false false equivalency, since I'm not claiming that any sources are equally biased.
One could even make the case that overall bias is even worse in the left direction, when including
the more mainstream media, eg, CBS, NBC, ABC.
But I'm not addressing magnitude to that level of precision.

To claim he's more dictatorial would require some real policy or legislative examples.

Well for starters, he's now stepped up his unfounded verbal and Twitter assaults on mainstream journalism's integrity by hypocritically calling them "fake news" sources, to now physically barring journalists from the NY Times, BBC, and several other media organizations that have been the most critical of him and his policies (Independent). Meanwhile, he's invited a few right-wing "media" organizations (with far lower readership but very favorable treatment of him), including Breitbart News... the group whom his Chief Strategist Steve Bannon served as Editor-In-Chief of until fairly recently.

History shows us that when authoritarian leaders successfully rise to power, among the first things they do is demonize their critics in the press. Which Trump has been doing. They furthermore set about to spread propaganda which paints themselves and their policies as "the greatest," as Trump has been doing.

At this point in time, he's begun to take action against, and not just verbally assault, the press. And with Trump's and Bannon's voracious and persistent threats to step up their assaults upon the press, our First Amendment liberties to a free press is now actually under assault. I expect a barring of media critics and invitations to media sycophants to not only recur going forward, but to worsen. Trump detests any and all criticism, and he'll trample our constitutional rights to silence the opposition... as he's already begun to try.

Getting back to history, once the critics have been silenced and the propaganda machine is running, the rest of our liberties are no longer protected.

We can only hope he's impeached before it gets much worse.

My only radio source is NPR, & BBC via NPR.
I don't do TV news, other than an occasional survey of Fox, OAN, & MSNBC to compare coverage.
Most of my news is the electronic version of print media via Drudge (which spans a wide political spectrum), eg, NYT, Huff Po, Wa Po, Fox, local papers, local TV stations. I skip the worthless ones, eg, Breitbart, Infowars, Alternet. As for periodicals....Smithsonian, Pop Sci, Nat Geographic.
What do you rely upon?

Similar, actually. I use a wide variety of media sources too, but tend to go more with the NY Times most often. I sometimes check the Huffington Post and Washington Post, I do listen to NPR in the car, and I'll often check with Fox News as well for their take on things. I also read the Smithsonian and National Geographic. I'm also a member of the American Historical Association and read their newsletter and peer-reviewed articles on historical events. Ultimately, I review media articles for an overview and will not make conclusions until I've actually investigated situations with the experts: research institutes that actually study the issues. For instance, I read up on WOLA's reports to better acquaint myself with the real and fake issues of the southern border. I've also actually visited and spent time at Breitbart's site reading through several (hideously abhorrent) articles to investigate the allegations that Steve Bannon and his staff there are what the left portrays him as (spoiler: he most definitely is that bad), and I've listened to Pence speak for himself in recent interviews with conservative media to get a handle on his views and intended policies. I've formally studied history in college, so I understand how to vet primary and secondary sources of information, their strengths and weaknesses, and how to take biases, omissions, lies, and other potential and actual falsehoods into account. In fact, I'm planning to start blogging, and intend to write about how to vet sources of information for quality.

In hindsight, sorry if that last post came across a bit wordy and strong. I recall now that your real issue with Clinton was her war record and not the other issues I went into. This latest escalation of assault by Trump on the press and thereby our constitutional liberties really has had me on edge the past couple of days. :/ It's absolutely intolerable and unacceptable, and should be thus for all Americans who claim they love freedom and liberty, frankly.
 

Kartari

Active Member
Hi Eh,

Why on earth would I give any credence at all -- especially on the question of what is "fake" -- who is already a proven serial and committed liar on pretty much every topic to which he turns his attention?

Talk about the pot calling the kettle "off-white!" :rolleyes:

He's stepped up the verbal and Twitter assaults on mainstream media to now actually barring the NY Times and several other media organizations who have been most critical of him from the latest White House press briefing (Independent). He's also invited reporters from a few extremely right-wing "news" organizations, including Steve Bannon's own Breitbart. The transformation of the media from a free press to the propaganda department for Trump has begun, as has the assault upon the First Amendment and our American liberties.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Again, we don't have any real reason to believe he actually understands the real problems with our southern border. He clearly fails to understand the basics of the real problems facing this country more broadly, in fact. He instead perpetually Tweets and vents about imagined problems on a daily basis, making blatant threats to imagined national enemies like the press.
Perhaps you & Trump simply disagree about which is a problem, & which isn't.
Take corporate tax rates.
This is one area where I agree with him, ie, they should be lower.
Obama never understood this.
So rather than saying he doesn't understand, I see a different
understanding....very different from mine in many cases, btw.
Getting back to the border though, ports of entry along the border wall do need more staff and equipment at present. This is NOT due to increased illegal immigration; it's declined over the past decade, in fact. Rather, this is due to new measures set into place which require border staff to abide by more stringent anti-corruption procedures that tie them down. Extending the wall itself will be a waste of billions in taxpayer money, however, so making any reference to building or extending a wall in the context of actual research is nonsensical. Trump's complaints about "all" migrants, documented or otherwise, being "criminals" or "the worst" are entirely unfounded as well, with the low crime rates in port cities like El Paso providing evidence to this fact (Source: BorderFactCheck & WOLA's Oct 2016 Report).
We will see what constitutes his "wall".
Neither of us can yet describe it with any certainty.
But he is planning to reinforce the border policing element.
History shows us that when authoritarian leaders successfully rise to power, among the first things they do is demonize their critics in the press. Which Trump has been doing. They furthermore set about to spread propaganda which paints themselves and their policies as "the greatest," as Trump has been doing.
One cannot decry Trump as fascist by finding some superficial similarities with historical fascists.
Let's consider only actual public policy & law.
The media have lost no rights, & in fact have more liberty than decades ago.
At this point in time, he's begun to take action against, and not just verbally assault, the press. And with Trump's and Bannon's voracious and persistent threats to step up their assaults upon the press, our First Amendment liberties to a free press is now actually under assault. I expect a barring of media critics and invitations to media sycophants to not only recur going forward, but to worsen. Trump detests any and all criticism, and he'll trample our constitutional rights to silence the opposition... as he's already begun to try.

Getting back to history, once the critics have been silenced and the propaganda machine is running, the rest of our liberties are no longer protected.
That's sky-is-falling talk.
Press freedom isn't lost just because we have an angry blowhard for Prez.
We can only hope he's impeached before it gets much worse.
I don't think we can talk impeachment until he commits an offense rising to that level.
Similar, actually. I use a wide variety of media sources too, but tend to go more with the NY Times most often. I sometimes check the Huffington Post and Washington Post, I do listen to NPR in the car, and I'll often check with Fox News as well for their take on things. I also read the Smithsonian and National Geographic. I'm also a member of the American Historical Association and read their newsletter and peer-reviewed articles on historical events. Ultimately, I review media articles for an overview and will not make conclusions until I've actually investigated situations with the experts: research institutes that actually study the issues. For instance, I read up on WOLA's reports to better acquaint myself with the real and fake issues of the southern border. I've also actually visited and spent time at Breitbart's site reading through several (hideously abhorrent) articles to investigate the allegations that Steve Bannon and his staff there are what the left portrays him as (spoiler: he most definitely is that bad), and I've listened to Pence speak for himself in recent interviews with conservative media to get a handle on his views and intended policies. I've formally studied history in college, so I understand how to vet primary and secondary sources of information, their strengths and weaknesses, and how to take biases, omissions, lies, and other potential and actual falsehoods into account. In fact, I'm planning to start blogging, and intend to write about how to vet sources of information for quality.
We should both read more comic books.
In hindsight, sorry if that last post came across a bit wordy and strong. I recall now that your real issue with Clinton was her war record and not the other issues I went into. This latest escalation of assault by Trump on the press and thereby our constitutional liberties really has had me on edge the past couple of days. :/ It's absolutely intolerable and unacceptable, and should be thus for all Americans who claim they love freedom and liberty, frankly.
The risk of losing constitutional liberties is a continual & ever present threat, not just from Trump.
Dems criticize him simply because he's the current threat, but they were silent when one of their
own tried to do the same or worse. I've covered Bill Clinton's abysmal record in other posts.
Oddly, Dems didn't mind his trashing things like free speech, requiring warrants for searches,
& the right to a jury trial.
What specific administrative orders or legislation of Trump's do you see as threatening?
 
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