Trump and the Failure of the Republican Party

[Underhill]

It could be that the thread's title might change to....
Trump & The Rebirth Of The Republican Party

But I make no predictions....anything can happen that far in the distant future.

If this is the rebirth of the party, then we are doomed. Populism is acceptable up to a point (it's even necessary to get elected), but if this guy is half as bad as I think he will be, we could be in for a nasty ride.

 

[metis]

If this is the rebirth of the party, then we are doomed. Populism is acceptable up to a point (it's even necessary to get elected), but if this guy is half as bad as I think he will be, we could be in for a nasty ride.

I was listening last night to a non-partisan foreign correspondent who says that our image has already been tainted overseas because this guy actually secured a party nomination. They can't figure out how people would stoop so low as to actually want him as president. Trouble is, even though they "like" Hillary more, her image ain't that much better.

 

[Demonslayer]

 

[Revoltingest]

If this is the rebirth of the party, then we are doomed. Populism is acceptable up to a point (it's even necessary to get elected), but if this guy is half as bad as I think he will be, we could be in for a nasty ride.

Populism is always there.
Every election has it.
Who exhibits it more so.....Donald or Hillary?
I don't know.
Both disgust me in this regard.

 

[Underhill]

Populism is always there.
Every election has it.
Who exhibits it more so.....Donald or Hillary?
I don't know.
Both disgust me in this regard.

Really? A wall. No muslims. Expand our military, wipe out Isis and keep the peace (all completely contrary principles in case anyone is paying attention).

It isn't just populist that is the problem, it's populism without reason.

Sure, Hillary talks about popular ideas. Health care, lowering the cost of school, etc... but these are not destructive notions. I don't agree with her on many things, but at least she doesn't sound like an idiot.

I know you always try to walk this line about 'everyone' does it. But you are way off base here. Trump is in a league all by himself. The entire world seems to get this, even most of his supporters who love him for it, but not you.

 

[Revoltingest]

Really? A wall.

The wall isn't just Trump's idea.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secure_Fence_Act_of_2006
Given our porous border, & the consequent problems, the wall is a reasonable idea.

No muslims.

This doesn't accurately state his position.
It's about immigration & terrorism mitigation.
This does strike me as pure populism because of its legal impracticality.

Expand our military, wipe out Isis and keep the peace (all completely contrary principles in case anyone is paying attention).

It's hard to characterize this as populism because it's conventional governmental thought & action.

It isn't just populist that is the problem, it's populism without reason.
Sure, Hillary talks about popular ideas. Health care, lowering the cost of school, etc... but these are not destructive notions. I don't agree with her on many things, but at least she doesn't sound like an idiot.

Neither sound idiotic to me.
But both advocate things I disagree with.
Looking at Hillary's agendas.....
https://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/
....I see things which I find wrongful (interpreting them based not just on what is in print, but upon her record), eg, curbing gun rights, her authoritarian approach to health care.

I know you always try to walk this line about 'everyone' does it.

This is a gross misunderstanding.
I don't believe that every individual does the same thing, ie, there are differences.
It's about comparing them using the same standards.
This avoids the problem where one candidate is criticized for X, but another doing the same isn't criticized.

But you are way off base here.

So you say, but I see partisanship causing people to over-react to Trump's shortcomings (both real & fabricated), & viewing Hillary thru rose colored glasses.

Trump is in a league all by himself. The entire world seems to get this, even most of his supporters who love him for it, but not you.

He is indeed different.
But I don't vote based upon what Putin, Cameron & their ilk want.
If Trump wins, I'm sure they'll learn to cope, & pretend to like Trump (just as they do with other presidents).[/QUOTE]

 

[Underhill]

The wall isn't just Trump's idea.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secure_Fence_Act_of_2006
Given our porous border, & the consequent problems, the wall is a reasonable idea.

This doesn't accurately state his position.
It's about immigration & terrorism mitigation.
This does strike me as pure populism because of its legal impracticality.

It's hard to characterize this as populism because it's conventional governmental thought & action.

Neither sound idiotic to me.
But both advocate things I disagree with.
Looking at Hillary's agendas.....
https://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/
....I see things which I find wrongful (interpreting them based not just on what is in print, but upon her record), eg, curbing gun rights, her authoritarian approach to health care.

Neither of which are unreasonable or populist. We make millions of people take their shoes off because one guy tried to carry a bomb in his shoe. But regulating guns is a bridge too far in the name of safety after tens of thousands of shootings. And her authoritarian approach to health care is the same as Bernie's (and Trump was on that bandwagon too not that long ago).

This is a gross misunderstanding.
I don't believe that every individual does the same thing, ie, there are differences.
It's about comparing them using the same standards.
This avoids the problem where one candidate is criticized for X, but another doing the same isn't criticized.

I get that, but you often take it too far. All too often in these discussions there are demonstrable and measurable differences that you choose to ignore because it suits your preferred candidate or position.

So you say, but I see partisanship causing people to over-react to Trump's shortcomings (both real & fabricated), & viewing Hillary thru rose colored glasses.

Are you kidding me? Have you seen the amount of hate leveled at Hillary? Even among democrats they aren't thrilled with her. Why do you think Bernie is breathing down her neck? Most democrats have a very reasonable and realistic view of Hillary. Even you can't say that about many Trump supporters.

He is indeed different.
But I don't vote based upon what Putin, Cameron & their ilk want.
If Trump wins, I'm sure they'll learn to cope, & pretend to like Trump (just as they do with other presidents).

I'm not talking about Putin or Cameron, I'm talking about 6 billion people. As much as the right complains about Obama making us look weak on the world stage (a laughable position if ever there was one) you would think they would be a bit more concerned with the laughing stock Trump will make of us all.

 

[Revoltingest]

Neither of which are unreasonable or populist. We make millions of people take their shoes off because one guy tried to carry a bomb in his shoe. But regulating guns is a bridge too far in the name of safety after tens of thousands of shootings. And her authoritarian approach to health care is the same as Bernie's (and Trump was on that bandwagon too not that long ago).

Here's the problem.....
It's so subjective that Hillary's fans can see her as not using populist pandering,
but Trump can be decried for it.
This is an extreme faith based view.

I get that, but you often take it too far.

Comparing candidates can be taken too far?
Is that because one might find merit in the enemy, & warts on one's chosen one?
This can be discomforting, but I know of no better way to choose between alternatives.

All too often in these discussions there are demonstrable and measurable differences that you choose to ignore because it suits your preferred candidate.

Sometimes, posters think they're demonstrating something objectively, but it's really just opining.
Claiming Trump is dishonest is one such thing.
Where you seem certain, I see only possibilities.

Are you kidding me?

No.

Have you seen the amount of hate leveled at Hillary?

Yes....there's a whole lotta hate flying in all directions.
I prefer disdain.
It clouds the mind less than hate.

Even among democrats they aren't thrilled with her. Why do you think Bernie is breathing down her neck? Most democrats have a very reasonable and realistic view of Hillary.

This is not what I observe.
Many try to ignore her problems, focusing instead on demonizing Trump.

Even you can't say that about many Trump supporters.

Actually, I can say exactly that, based upon many many conversations with people who plan to hold their noses, & vote for him because of the greater danger posed by Hillary.

I'm not talking about Putin or Cameron, I'm talking about 6 billion people.

You know their opinion on our election issues?
I still don't care what they think.
Whoever wins, they'll get over whatever drama they feel, & cope with it.

 

[Nous]

As we move into the general, we see Trump overtaking Hillary and will easily defeat her.

So now you've made your prediction. I hope you mind if we engage in a little ribbing if it doesn't come true?

 

[Demonslayer]

I prefer disdain.
It clouds the mind less than hate.

Also, less danger of being led inadvertently to that pesky dark side.

 

[Revoltingest]

Also, less danger of being led inadvertently to that pesky dark side.

I still visit the dark side occasionally.
(The food is good there.)