Trump AWOL

[Audie]

I’ve never understood Trump’s appeal at all. He has no charisma, no sense of style, he speaks like an uneducated buffoon and he lacks any semblance of thought.
I mean geez, even Hitler was a compelling orator.

Sorry for the foreign intrusion, that was just bugging me.

Amy Chua wrote a book on political tribes with some specific references to trumpism.

I found it fascinating, full of "Aha" for me, having been 110% baffled by it.

 

[Revoltingest]

I’ve never understood Trump’s appeal at all. He has no charisma, no sense of style, he speaks like an uneducated buffoon and he lacks any semblance of thought.
I mean geez, even Hitler was a compelling orator.

In a herd of cattle felled by disease, the one still
able to stand will be charismatic...relatively.
Such have been our elections.

 

[Polymath257]

Setting aside the person, how do you compare their
policies, war records, etc?

We shouldn't have gone into Iraq before finishing in Afghanistan (if at all). That one act pretty much destroyed the Middle East for over a decade. That's the big one against Dubya.

On the other hand, pulling out of the Iran deal means they have pretty much no holds barred on making a nuke. Cozying up to dictators around the world and damaging our relationships with our allies may well be treatable by the next administration, but only with difficulty.

Internal policies; pretty much everyone is ignoring the infrastructure. They all make noise, but don't really do anything. Trump has demolished the budget (and not just because of COVID) by letting the debt get even more out of hand (and faster) than anyone.

Trump made it a point to even flout the emoluments clause of the constitution. Nepotism, as a policy, reigns.

 

[SomeRandom]

In a herd of cattle felled by disease, the one still
able to stand will be charismatic...relatively.
Such have been our elections.

Maybe. I just don’t see anything other than a blubbering buffoon. All the others had some charisma or class. (Though in saying that I don’t really remember Dubya, so my mileage is a bit on the short side.)

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Dubya is better?

Better today than he once was, yes.

 

[Revoltingest]

Better today than he once was, yes.

Ex-Presidents always seem to rehabilitate themselves after leaving office.
But was Dubya better record as President?

Btw, Trump has been exploring making his record even worse.....
Trump Sought Options for Attacking Iran to Stop Its Growing Nuclear Program

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Do you think that his playing less golf &
more White House would improve things?

I wasn't quite sure on your meaning;
Are you suggesting leaders have zero effect on Covid?
Or are you suggesting that this particular leader wouldn't improve things if he was playing golf less?

 

[lewisnotmiller]

I would agree he should let Biden have a briefing... but just to remind you that Gore held the process for 37 days and it still all worked out... so not really "endangering the country".

It depends what you mean by 'all worked out', though.
Did the world end? Nope.
But the Commission into 9/11 did report that the delay;

hampered the new administration in identifying, recruiting, clearing and obtaining Senate confirmation of key appointees” in the national security arena. The commission also concluded that avoiding future disruptions in transitions was deeply in the national interest.

Source : https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...1a960a-239f-11eb-8672-c281c7a2c96e_story.html

 

[lewisnotmiller]

That has to be the lowest bar. A lump of rock would not start a war.

To be fair, it depends who it was thrown at.
Sorry, couldn't resist.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

That may be true.. but, as I do, work is also delegated. I don't need to be in the media department of our church because I delegated that work load to someone else - I am involved superficially but don't need to eliminate my day off because it is important for it to be done... it is delegated. His taking a time to golf doesn't mean he isn't involved -- he has delegated that area to someone else.

Same for me. I'm a state manager, and when things are going smoothly, I have moments where I feel a little redundant. But when the crap hits the fan, the focus increases.
And...somewhat unfairly...he works in a job where perception is almost as important as fact in terms of the countries stability.

He looks like he's pouting.

 

[Sunstone]

I’ve never understood Trump’s appeal at all. He has no charisma, no sense of style, he speaks like an uneducated buffoon and he lacks any semblance of thought.
I mean geez, even Hitler was a compelling orator.

Sorry for the foreign intrusion, that was just bugging me.

Our ever so superficial media likes to paint Mr. Trump's appeal as a matter of charisma. There might be some truth to that, although most likely not nearly as much as the talking heads put out that there is.

More important than Mr. Trump's 'personal magnetism', such that it might be, is that he portrays himself as immensely wealthy. The demographics many of his staunches followers come from tend to have an admiration for great wealth. They are curiously akin to the Puritans in seeing wealth as a mark or sign of a superior person. I don't quite understand the thinking myself, but it's very real and it shows up in the studies. So one way to approach Mr. Trump as a phenomenon is to recognize that his money is more charismatic than he is to quite a few of his followers. The same good people who would look at him with contempt if he was flipping hamburgers fawn on him because he is associated in their minds with billions. But that's just the start of Mr. Trump's attraction to certain groups. It's not even, in my opinion, the most important component.

Far more important, I believe is that Mr. Trump succeeded in positioning himself as a populist. Offhand, I can recall around a dozen people I know who originally supporter Bernie Sanders -- another populist -- but who switched to Mr. Trump after Mr. Sanders failed to gain the nomination. So, a key point here is to grasp that the media has mislead people about Mr. Trump's attraction, saying it was all about him. In fact, it's only half true to say that. The other side of the coin is that Mr. Trump, who has excellent showman skills, was able to portray himself as an extraordinarily wealthy businessman and a populist.

A word of caution, @SomeRandom. This is a forum post and not a book, and space prevents me from fully answering your question. I just want to get you headed in the right direction. Hopefully, I have done that. There is so much more to it that I simply don't have room for, and also don't have time to write out.

The full truth here is very complex, very nuanced. Just don't think you're getting the half of it in the media -- you're not.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

In a herd of cattle felled by disease, the one still
able to stand will be charismatic...relatively.
Such have been our elections.

Is that something like 'In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king'?

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Ex-Presidents always seem to rehabilitate themselves after leaving office.

It's a side-note, but I've noticed the same over here at times (perhaps not as consistently). It does make me reflect on just how much back-office wheeling and dealing occurs. I sometimes find the messaging and positions of ex-Prime Ministers more coherent and visionary than that of sitting PMs.

 

[halbhh]

The president, in the midst of a huge rise in covid cases, has been playing golf. He has consistently ignored and underplayed this disease since the beginning.

Instead of attending to the people's business, keeping them safe, he has been focused on a losing attempt to steal the election. Every lawsuit he has made has been thrown out due to lack of evidence.

Instead of providing the security briefings that are given *even in disputed elections*, he has further endangered the country by refusing to even beginning a transition.

At what point do we see his actions and lack of actions as fundamentally treasonous?

While it appears as if Trump doesn't care about the lives that could be saved by encouraging more mask wearing, from the bully pulpit...

And that might be.

Another possibility is that instead he is truly out to lunch in a very serious way.

I mean not just that he doesn't learn about the virus, as suggested by this --

Video: Officials say Trump hasn’t attended a coronavirus task force meeting in 5 months

But instead another theory: he actually may not be mentally competent. That is, unable to perceive reality.

This might happen if he has so long believed his own worldview building that he's lost an ability to hear/see actual reality that doesn't fit in it. That's very speculative though. It might not be that way. But this is the less bad thing, to just be incompetent. Worse if is he just doesn't care about the extra people that will die due to lack of presidential encouragement for people to wear masks.

 

[Stevicus]

I wish there were a side of American politics
inhabited by reasonable persons.



So determined to call treason where it does not exist. Not wise even if what goes around didn't come sround.

You guys making up laws and their definitions
doesn't make them real and, again, watch for what comes around.

I've lived under the U.S. political system all my life, and I think many of us know that it's quite flawed in multiple ways. Though it's not just the functions of the system itself, but it's also a reflection of the political culture, or the overall philosophy of America and the things that people typically believe to be a part of "Americana." It's not just about right-wing patriotism or militarism, but also about America being a free, open, and tolerant society.

I do tend to agree that the charge of "treason" should not be made lightly. I think Joe McCarthy accused the entire Democratic Party of treason. Constitutionally, one can only be accused of treason if they make war against the United States, or if they give aid and comfort to enemies of the United States.

However, what defines an "enemy"?

The Constitution gives Congress the power to declare war, so if they officially declare war, then that would define who America's enemies are. But if it's some kind of unofficial or undeclared "enemy," then that goes into murky, dark territory. That's another aspect of the political culture here in America which is a legacy of the Cold War, which was truly a pointless and wasteful exercise in futility.

As far as what may "come around" in the future, that's anybody's guess. A lot of Americans were well aware we were a nation in decline even back in the 60s and 70s, but the Reaganized 1980s were like some hallucinogenic drug that made Americans forget all their troubles. "Don't Worry, Be Happy" was the Republican theme song, and even the Democrats started singing along. It's only been in the past few years that the effect of that drug has finally started to wear off. A lot of people are wondering aloud "Just what in the heck happened? How did we come to this?"

 

[Stevicus]

Maybe. I just don’t see anything other than a blubbering buffoon. All the others had some charisma or class. (Though in saying that I don’t really remember Dubya, so my mileage is a bit on the short side.)

Anyone can made to look like a blubbering buffoon, although there are some who make it easier than others.

Notwithstanding his silver-spoon origins, Trump seems to have found a way to emulate the way a lot of Americans think and act. I remember hearing one guy on a call-in radio show say "he talks just as we do," implying he's "just like us." And I have found that basic personality type to be rather common at all levels of society - the boisterous, pushy, conservative curmudgeon type abounds out there - at least in areas where I travel. When I was in high school, I worked at a hotel where the primary clientele were businessmen, many of whom were very much like Trump - although this was before I even knew about Trump. So, when Trump was somehow elevated to that of media celebrity (something I never understood in the first place), it just seemed "typical" and "standard" to me. He was the symbol of Reagan's new capitalism and American business standard of the time.

But even more so than that, I've also heard Trump's paleo-conservative views on America First and that general line of thinking for a long time, among conservatives I've known throughout my life. These ideas are really nothing new, but they didn't generally make it to the mainstream because they're not really the image that the two major parties wanted to portray.

 

[SomeRandom]

Anyone can made to look like a blubbering buffoon, although there are some who make it easier than others.

Notwithstanding his silver-spoon origins, Trump seems to have found a way to emulate the way a lot of Americans think and act. I remember hearing one guy on a call-in radio show say "he talks just as we do," implying he's "just like us." And I have found that basic personality type to be rather common at all levels of society - the boisterous, pushy, conservative curmudgeon type abounds out there - at least in areas where I travel. When I was in high school, I worked at a hotel where the primary clientele were businessmen, many of whom were very much like Trump - although this was before I even knew about Trump. So, when Trump was somehow elevated to that of media celebrity (something I never understood in the first place), it just seemed "typical" and "standard" to me. He was the symbol of Reagan's new capitalism and American business standard of the time.

But even more so than that, I've also heard Trump's paleo-conservative views on America First and that general line of thinking for a long time, among conservatives I've known throughout my life. These ideas are really nothing new, but they didn't generally make it to the mainstream because they're not really the image that the two major parties wanted to portray.

Fascinating.

 

[exchemist]

I wish there were a side of American politics
inhabited by reasonable persons.



So determined to call treason where it does not exist. Not wise even if what goes around didn't come sround.

You guys making up laws and their definitions
doesn't make them real and, again, watch for what comes around.

Do you think Putin and Xi will be unhappy that Trump is undermining trust in US democracy, then?

Or do you contend that Trump is somehow making US democracy stronger by his actions?

 

[exchemist]

Anyone can made to look like a blubbering buffoon, although there are some who make it easier than others.

Notwithstanding his silver-spoon origins, Trump seems to have found a way to emulate the way a lot of Americans think and act. I remember hearing one guy on a call-in radio show say "he talks just as we do," implying he's "just like us." And I have found that basic personality type to be rather common at all levels of society - the boisterous, pushy, conservative curmudgeon type abounds out there - at least in areas where I travel. When I was in high school, I worked at a hotel where the primary clientele were businessmen, many of whom were very much like Trump - although this was before I even knew about Trump. So, when Trump was somehow elevated to that of media celebrity (something I never understood in the first place), it just seemed "typical" and "standard" to me. He was the symbol of Reagan's new capitalism and American business standard of the time.

But even more so than that, I've also heard Trump's paleo-conservative views on America First and that general line of thinking for a long time, among conservatives I've known throughout my life. These ideas are really nothing new, but they didn't generally make it to the mainstream because they're not really the image that the two major parties wanted to portray.

I agree. Trump is living proof of the thesis of Wlliam Golding's "Lord of the Flies", namely that civilised society is just a thin veneer over our underlying savagery.

Golding wrote it in the aftermath of the Second World War, in which a highly civilised culture was degraded to barbarism - largely by politicians deciding to appeal to people's basest instincts.

The implication, obviously, is that it is the duty of leaders to preserve that veneer, by fortifying people's higher motives and sense of self-discipline, so that they do not revert to tribal barbarism.

 

[Revoltingest]

I wasn't quite sure on your meaning;
Are you suggesting leaders have zero effect on Covid?
Or are you suggesting that this particular leader wouldn't improve things if he was playing golf less?

Bingo!