Trump AWOL

[Audie]

Do you think Putin and Xi will be unhappy that Trump is undermining trust in US democracy, then?

Or do you contend that Trump is somehow making US democracy stronger by his actions?

Why write anything at all of its just
rhetorical questions that are wholly unresponsive ? Nothing of that is remotely stated or implied in what I wrote. Your "questions" drift into the insulting and invidious.

You mostly do so much better than that, I am a bit disappointed in you.

 

[Audie]

I've lived under the U.S. political system all my life, and I think many of us know that it's quite flawed in multiple ways. Though it's not just the functions of the system itself, but it's also a reflection of the political culture, or the overall philosophy of America and the things that people typically believe to be a part of "Americana." It's not just about right-wing patriotism or militarism, but also about America being a free, open, and tolerant society.

I do tend to agree that the charge of "treason" should not be made lightly. I think Joe McCarthy accused the entire Democratic Party of treason. Constitutionally, one can only be accused of treason if they make war against the United States, or if they give aid and comfort to enemies of the United States.

However, what defines an "enemy"?

The Constitution gives Congress the power to declare war, so if they officially declare war, then that would define who America's enemies are. But if it's some kind of unofficial or undeclared "enemy," then that goes into murky, dark territory. That's another aspect of the political culture here in America which is a legacy of the Cold War, which was truly a pointless and wasteful exercise in futility.

As far as what may "come around" in the future, that's anybody's guess. A lot of Americans were well aware we were a nation in decline even back in the 60s and 70s, but the Reaganized 1980s were like some hallucinogenic drug that made Americans forget all their troubles. "Don't Worry, Be Happy" was the Republican theme song, and even the Democrats started singing along. It's only been in the past few years that the effect of that drug has finally started to wear off. A lot of people are wondering aloud "Just what in the heck happened? How did we come to this?"

Your crystal ball is as cloudy as the next.

The come -around i referred to is just karma stuff, or simpler, revenge. Its self destructive in the long run to be doing such as phony charges of treason.

 

[exchemist]

Why write anything at all of its just
rhetorical questions that are wholly unresponsive ? Nothing of that is remotely stated or implied in what I wrote. Your "questions" drift into the insulting and invidious.

You mostly do so much better than that, I am a bit disappointed in you.

I can live with that, I think.

So do you agree, then, that Trump's actions will please Putin and Xi?

 

[Audie]

I can live with that, I think.

So do you agree, then, that Trump's actions will please Putin and Xi?

He is hardly a friend to either.

Om other hand, their strategic interests are enhanced by disunity and incompetence.

Not that all T-policies are wrong headed,, and too bad if he sets back, discredits sound ideas.

Still-

Whatever you do don't mistake me for a Trump fan.

 

[exchemist]

He is hardly a friend to either.

Om other hand, their strategic interests are enhanced by disunity and incompetence.

Not that all T-policies are wrong headed,, and too bad if he sets back, discredits sound ideas.

Still-

Whatever you do don't mistake me for a Trump fan.

No, my question to you is not about Trump's foreign policy, it is about Trump's actions in undermining trust in US democracy. Do you agree that those will be a source of satisfaction to Putin and Xi?

 

[Audie]

Anyone can made to look like a blubbering buffoon, although there are some who make it easier than others.

Notwithstanding his silver-spoon origins, Trump seems to have found a way to emulate the way a lot of Americans think and act. I remember hearing one guy on a call-in radio show say "he talks just as we do," implying he's "just like us." And I have found that basic personality type to be rather common at all levels of society - the boisterous, pushy, conservative curmudgeon type abounds out there - at least in areas where I travel. When I was in high school, I worked at a hotel where the primary clientele were businessmen, many of whom were very much like Trump - although this was before I even knew about Trump. So, when Trump was somehow elevated to that of media celebrity (something I never understood in the first place), it just seemed "typical" and "standard" to me. He was the symbol of Reagan's new capitalism and American business standard of the time.

But even more so than that, I've also heard Trump's paleo-conservative views on America First and that general line of thinking for a long time, among conservatives I've known throughout my life. These ideas are really nothing new, but they didn't generally make it to the mainstream because they're not really the image that the two major parties wanted to portray.

The baseball hat thing is such a shallow con.

 

[Audie]

No, my question to you is not about Trump's foreign policy, it is about Trump's actions in undermining trust in US democracy. Do you agree that those will be a source of satisfaction to Putin and Xi?

Yee.
And THAT I did variously state or imply!

 

[exchemist]

Yee.
And THAT I did variously state or imply!

Good, then we agree that Trump is, by his actions, giving comfort to the enemies of the USA.

Thanks, that was all I wanted to establish.

 

[Kenny]

It depends what you mean by 'all worked out', though.
Did the world end? Nope.
But the Commission into 9/11 did report that the delay;



Source : https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...1a960a-239f-11eb-8672-c281c7a2c96e_story.html

Have to subscribe to read... don't want to

However, delay wasn't my application. Delay is normal for government

 

[Stevicus]

Your crystal ball is as cloudy as the next.

The come -around i referred to is just karma stuff, or simpler, revenge. Its self destructive in the long run to be doing such as phony charges of treason.

Yes, I've seen the revenge stuff. I got an early taste of it during the Arab oil embargo of the early 70s. Then there was the Iranian hostage crisis, 1979-81. 9/11 is another case of someone taking revenge on the United States over something we've done in the past. I've heard the revenge narrative most of my life, although there's a very thin line between revenge and justice.

As for treason, that's simply a matter of a point of view. Treason is in the eye of the beholder. Some believe that it's treason to oppose the acts of militarism which led to some wanting revenge against us. Others might think that it's treasonous to employ illegal immigrants - or to allow immigration from countries which are hostile to the United States. There were even those who believed that supporting NAFTA was treason. From a certain point of view, outsourcing can be considered treasonous.

There are many parameters and permutations of treason, if we want to get really creative.

Failure to stand up and salute the flag or recite the Pledge of Allegiance can be seen as treasonous by some. Burning or disrespecting the U.S. flag might also be seen as treasonous.

 

[Revoltingest]

Yee.
And THAT I did variously state or imply!

Is it worthwhile arguing with those who put words in your mouth?
Democracy will survive. Who knows what Putin & Xi want...a
more stable foe in Ameristan....Trump...someone else?
They don't know.
The accusation that he's their agent is a shibboleth.

 

[Audie]

Good, then we agree that Trump is, by his actions, giving comfort to the enemies of the USA.

Thanks, that was all I wanted to establish.

If that was all to try to salvage the misapplied claim of treason, I am back to being disappointed in you.

By such reckoning everyone who buys a Chinese toaster at wally would is aiding the enemy.

In the event, I'd have to look it up but I believe it only applies when there are actual hostilities.

Didn't Clinton supply N Korea with nuclear reactors? The US sold grain to Russia at the height of the cold War.

Treason, treason all about!!

 

[Stevicus]

I agree. Trump is living proof of the thesis of Wlliam Golding's "Lord of the Flies", namely that civilised society is just a thin veneer over our underlying savagery.

Golding wrote it in the aftermath of the Second World War, in which a highly civilised culture was degraded to barbarism - largely by politicians deciding to appeal to people's basest instincts.

The implication, obviously, is that it is the duty of leaders to preserve that veneer, by fortifying people's higher motives and sense of self-discipline, so that they do not revert to tribal barbarism.

I'm reminded of a quote attributed to Count Witte just as Russia was entering World War I:

None of you will be here when this war ends. Everything we fought for will be lost, everything we've loved will be broken. The victors will be as cursed as the defeated. The world will grow old, and men will wander about, lost in the ruins, and go mad. Tradition, restraint, virtue, they all go. I'm not mourning for myself, but for the people who will come after me, they will live without hope. And all they will have will be guilt, revenge, and terror. And the world will be full of fanatics and trivial fools.

Because of WW1, motivated by unrestrained greed and a lust for power and conquest, three major dynasties fell, and the two largest empires in the world were thrown into receivership. The Soviet Union and Nazi Germany were both created as a result of that war. "Tradition, restraint, virtue, they all go."

 

[Audie]

Yes, I've seen the revenge stuff. I got an early taste of it during the Arab oil embargo of the early 70s. Then there was the Iranian hostage crisis, 1979-81. 9/11 is another case of someone taking revenge on the United States over something we've done in the past. I've heard the revenge narrative most of my life, although there's a very thin line between revenge and justice.

As for treason, that's simply a matter of a point of view. Treason is in the eye of the beholder. Some believe that it's treason to oppose the acts of militarism which led to some wanting revenge against us. Others might think that it's treasonous to employ illegal immigrants - or to allow immigration from countries which are hostile to the United States. There were even those who believed that supporting NAFTA was treason. From a certain point of view, outsourcing can be considered treasonous.

There are many parameters and permutations of treason, if we want to get really creative.

Failure to stand up and salute the flag or recite the Pledge of Allegiance can be seen as treasonous by some. Burning or disrespecting the U.S. flag might also be seen as treasonous.

Oh, I hope you are kidding about treason being in the eyes of the beholder unless this is just a semantic game inwhich buying a Chinese toaster is treasonous.

I object to such reckless and invidious use of vocabulary which has a particular legal meaning as outlined in your constitution.

All I see in this is debasement of the kangusge and the level of discoursel

 

[Audie]

Is it worthwhile arguing with those who put words in your mouth?
Democracy will survive. Who knows what Putin & Xi want...a
more stable foe in Ameristan....Trump...someone else?
They don't know.
The accusation that he's their agent is a shibboleth.

I am not arguing, as such, I am trying to discuss in good faith but I found the good faith bit is not being reciprocated so I am not going to continue.

 

[Stevicus]

Is it worthwhile arguing with those who put words in your mouth?
Democracy will survive. Who knows what Putin & Xi want...a
more stable foe in Ameristan....Trump...someone else?
They don't know.
The accusation that he's their agent is a shibboleth.

I can't imagine any world leader (other than the most deranged fanatics) actually wanting or actively working to undermine America's political system and sow chaos. Back during the Cold War, they might have hoped for America to turn communist, but not anarchistic or chaotic. It's in the interests of both Putin and Xi that America remain relatively stable and viable - although they would likely prefer that America stand down when it comes to interventionism and playing Captain America all over the world.

But if America falls into chaos or civil war, the consequences to the rest of the world could be horrendous - especially if we're talking multiple factions with nuclear weapons.

 

[Stevicus]

Oh, I hope you are kidding about treason being in the eyes of the beholder unless this is just a semantic game inwhich buying a Chinese toaster is treasonous.

I was mainly speaking hypothetically, although I have heard the word "treason" used in such contexts in the past. I'm not saying that I agree with any of those scenarios, but my point is that I've seen "treason" being used in a variety of situations. I prefer to stick to the basic definition outlined in the Constitution.

I don't think buying a Chinese toaster is treasonous (toasters may be exempt), although buying a Chinese waffle iron or bacon cooker might be.

I object to such reckless and invidious use of vocabulary which has a particular legal meaning as outlined in your constitution.

Well, when people talk about politics, whether in real life or in forums such as this, none of what anyone says actually carries any legal weight. It's just talk, really. People are stating their opinions.

I guess such talk has become so ubiquitous in the American political culture that people become used to it and just consider it par for the course. It's just like calling people "communists" or "pinkos" - or any pejorative which questions or impugns someone's patriotism or character.

I agree with you that people should tone it down and not become so intense with the invective. It's had a cumulative effect which has most definitely contributed to the wide political rift which has developed in this country.

All I see in this is debasement of the kangusge and the level of discoursel

Mud-slinging, character assassination, dirty tricks - all of this is part of politics.

 

[Goddess Kit]

There is such a thing as not taking something seriously enough. Some people think there's nothing wrong with democracy in this country. I argue that the way things are going, the country's very democracy is at stake. That's the issue with people who play around too much, they don't take things seriously enough.

 

[Audie]

There is such a thing as not taking something seriously enough. Some people think there's nothing wrong with democracy in this country. I argue that the way things are going, the country's very democracy is at stake. That's the issue with people who play around too much, they don't take things seriously enough.

Such as the partisan idee fixe that the election was without fault, and the other that there was fraud top to bottom?

 

[Audie]

I was mainly speaking hypothetically, although I have heard the word "treason" used in such contexts in the past. I'm not saying that I agree with any of those scenarios, but my point is that I've seen "treason" being used in a variety of situations. I prefer to stick to the basic definition outlined in the Constitution.

I don't think buying a Chinese toaster is treasonous (toasters may be exempt), although buying a Chinese waffle iron or bacon cooker might be.



Well, when people talk about politics, whether in real life or in forums such as this, none of what anyone says actually carries any legal weight. It's just talk, really. People are stating their opinions.

I guess such talk has become so ubiquitous in the American political culture that people become used to it and just consider it par for the course. It's just like calling people "communists" or "pinkos" - or any pejorative which questions or impugns someone's patriotism or character.

I agree with you that people should tone it down and not become so intense with the invective. It's had a cumulative effect which has most definitely contributed to the wide political rift which has developed in this country.



Mud-slinging, character assassination, dirty tricks - all of this is part of politics.

It beats Chinese politics