Trump is the best

[Daemon Sophic]

Attacking Obama seems on the level of criticizing Jesus to the left, so that tells you what is wrong immediately. All Presidents screw up a bit somewhere, it's a complicated job. But, mailing money to the mother of most terror incidents defies common sense.

Before anyone gets out of hand, Obama is no Lincoln or George Washington. He's not even a Thomas Jefferson. There are tons of Presidents who raised the vibration in history to a much greater scale. Obama fomented much of what's going on with the riot/protest silliness and so on, and incidents were going on even under his watch. He could have stood firm, but nope he turned a blind eye. That's Obama's legacy, not Trump's. Trump is mostly trying to pick up after this garbage was thrown about everywhere. Can't blame him for the madness, or really even blame him for the difficulty of resolving it. This situation requires a Lincoln-type character to resolve, and neither of the Presidential options is even close to that IMHO, though I feel Biden is even WORSE than Trump. He's just a meat puppet and the crazies will be pulling his strings from behind. Sadly, I think there are decent people in the Democratic party that would do a great job and I'd support them, but only the crazies are getting any play. It doesn't give me much choice at the ballot box.

Fact check! Sorry. You’re so-called “news” sources are wrong.
Trump Falsely Claims Obama ‘Never Even Tried’ to Address Police Misconduct

Trump's scrapping of Obama-era reforms hinders police reform

https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...421b78-a5b5-11ea-bb20-ebf0921f3bbd_story.html

 

[Mindmaster]

If you don't think systemic racism exists, you're living in an alternate reality, which actually speaks to your point in a way. But that's a topic for a different thread.

Option A -- If I'd agree with the fact that there is systematic racism, then that hierarchy must exist primarily with the Dems who largely control the big city areas where there are the most complaints. Thus, it makes no sense to vote for them since they've failed to preserve the rights of their citizens. Don't agree with that? Fine.

Option B. -- There is no racism going on here just tough cops in tough hoods. You're obviously going to have more police caused incidents in areas where they have to go hard to deal with the problems caused by the natives. If the criminals in an area are more violent it will take more potential violence to subdue them. This doesn't require any genius to understand at all.

I don't believe racism exists in any mind past 50 IQ, but I digress and shall explain. We're about three whole generations away from real racism, and people don't think along these lines in their dealings. That means neither you nor I, have run into a real racist or even an incidence of it. I'm old enough to have seen some documentaries on the subject when I was a child and they were showing short films on the 1960's civil rights movement, but apparently most of this footage didn't get to YouTube or Netflix. Anyway, when real racism was happening it wasn't just "I don't like them" it was: "I don't walk on the same side of the street", "I don't talk to them", "I won't hire them", and "I won't buy anything from them", etc. They would ghost you. That's never happened once in my entire life, so I don't know what planet these people are on.

I'll tell you the only real discrimination that exists in America -- it's based on merit or value. If you're valuable to someone no one cares about your color. But, if not, they certainly will disengage from you. So, that being said... If you're contributing to society you won't feel anyone is racist against you, and if you're not you're going to sit there making up BS to yourself while you work that job at Walmart to blame your failings on someone else. But, that mindset is exactly the thing that keeps you down. Racism used in this case is just a way that someone deflects their inadequacy. That doesn't make it true.

 

[Daemon Sophic]

I think I'm going to go the late George Carlin route, and just sit this election out.

I was really hoping Colin Powell would run for president but now even Colin Powell is 'backing' Biden from what I understand. That is actually what is throwing me for a loop here as I greatly respect the man.

Now there is another man I respect, namely John Bolton who is just as tough, if not more tough than Trump who is also a jumpship politician that paints a sordid tale of modern-day politicking.

In the end to paraphrase George Collins political views is that I don't give a rat's *** if the country kills itself now. I'm just going to sit on the side and stay a spectator from this point on as none of us are actually members of the 'club'.

That’s fine. As long as you’re not supporting Don the Con.

But I hope you take some time to consider that you have two men whom you have respected, who both tell you what Dems and all of the international and non-right-wing US media have been saying is true for years.
Peace be with you.

 

[Left Coast]

Option A -- If I'd agree with the fact that there is systematic racism, then that hierarchy must exist primarily with the Dems who largely control the big city areas where there are the most complaints. Thus, it makes no sense to vote for them since they've failed to preserve the rights of their citizens. Don't agree with that? Fine.

That makes no sense. First, I have no particular love for the Democratic Party, much of which consists of neoliberal centrists and even overt conservatives. But why in the world would I make the situation worse by voting for GOPers who propose even more terrible policies?

Secondly, There is systemic racism in lots of parts of the country, rural and urban. If you think black people have never had the same median income as white people in the entire history of the country purely as a function of white people deserving to make more money as a race, then I don't know what else to say to you.

I don't believe racism exists in any mind past 50 IQ, but I digress and shall explain. We're about three whole generations away from real racism, and people don't think along these lines in their dealings. That means neither you nor I, have run into a real racist or even an incidence of it. I'm old enough to have seen some documentaries on the subject when I was a child and they were showing short films on the 1960's civil rights movement, but apparently most of this footage didn't get to YouTube or Netflix. Anyway, when real racism was happening it wasn't just "I don't like them" it was: "I don't walk on the same side of the street", "I don't talk to them", "I won't hire them", and "I won't buy anything from them", etc. They would ghost you. That's never happened once in my entire life, so I don't know what planet these people are on.

Sorry, are you black?

In fact, many modern black Americans have encountered overt racism of exactly the kind you're describing. Try talking to some of them. It has been scientifically demonstrated that they are less likely to be hired for a job than a white person, even when they have an identical resume. They are more likely to be pulled over. More likely to have their vehicle searched when pulled over. More likely to be incarcerated for drug use, when they use drugs no more than white people. More likely to be killed by police. More likely to be given the death penalty. I can go on.

If you believe that is all a state of affairs black people deserve as a race, and has nothing to do with racism against them, I don't know what else to say to you.

 

[Mindmaster]

Secondly, There is systemic racism in lots of parts of the country, rural and urban. If you think black people have never had the same median income as white people in the entire history of the country purely as a function of white people deserving to make more money as a race, then I don't know what else to say to you.

Income isn't a viable measure of equality since they largely choose to live in poorer areas and urban settings... Because you've made less doesn't mean you were denied any opportunity. You could have taken less equitable paths. But, I still find this argument silly if only that if you have a mixed neighborhood of neighbors and talk to them all they probably all make exactly the same money. I don't live in a monochromatic neighborhood we like everyone here.

Sorry, are you black?

In fact, many modern black Americans have encountered overt racism of exactly the kind you're describing. Try talking to some of them. It has been scientifically demonstrated that they are less likely to be hired for a job than a white person, even when they have an identical resume. They are more likely to be pulled over. More likely to have their vehicle searched when pulled over. More likely to be incarcerated for drug use, when they use drugs no more than white people. More likely to be killed by police. More likely to be given the death penalty. I can go on.

If you believe that is all a state of affairs black people deserve as a race, and has nothing to do with racism against them, I don't know what else to say to you.

I'll cede that more African-American's believe there is racism, but again that doesn't make it so. You can believe in a lie and it's "true to you", it's still false, but you will behave as if it isn't.

But, to hit on your points:

1. Discrimination on employment is illegal. You can sue people for it, and companies aren't doing it for that reason.
2. Everyone is being paid the same with experience being the primary difference. Same condition as #1... Doing anything different = getting sued.
3. They are more likely to get pulled over and searched, but also more likely to be doing something that will get them pulled over or searched. That's not selective enforcement.
4. Drug incarcerations are the same penalties for both, so nonsense. Most drug bookings have fixed penalties that don't even fluctuate. Black folks are more likely to violate probation or supervision though which would compound sentences and make your statement appear true.
5. They're less likely to get killed by the police than white people. Your statement is completely false. All crime reporting data shows this. White people are far and away more likely to be fatally wounded by the police.
6. More likely to do the crime that results in the death penalty. But, given that a white person did the same crime they'd get the same sentence. Though very few states even have this as a sentence anymore.

So, the only truth in most of this is what you want to believe. If you believe companies want to hand out free money to people in lawsuits I'll have a laugh at your expense. If you think cops should pull people over less even when they find someone doing something improperly based on their color... that's real racism... If you think we should modify sentences based on someone's race it's not only racist but putting them down and belittling them directly, as we begin to treat them as irresponsible children rather than grown folks.

Personally, I'm against any consideration of race whatsoever in this regard. If you work hard and do well I want you to get paid, and if you screw up I want you to get the book thrown at you.

 

[sun rise]

Think in terms of total revenue generated.

I am doing that also - the deficit jumped badly after the rich got their goodies.

 

[Left Coast]

Income isn't a viable measure of equality since they largely choose to live in poorer areas and urban settings...

No, they don't, they're largely born in poorer, urban settings and thus that is what they can afford and where all their loved ones are.

Because you've made less doesn't mean you were denied any opportunity.

So again, the fact that black people have never, in the entire history of the country, made as much as whites is simply an indication to you that they just deserve to make less, as a race?

You recognize how deeply disturbing and disconnected from reality that sentiment is, yes?

You could have taken less equitable paths. But, I still find this argument silly if only that if you have a mixed neighborhood of neighbors and talk to them all they probably all make exactly the same money. I don't live in a monochromatic neighborhood we like everyone here.

Neighborhoods are incredibly segregated in this country. The fact that you aren't aware of this is further evidence of the disconnection of your view from what's actually happening in the world.

1. Discrimination on employment is illegal. You can sue people for it, and companies aren't doing it for that reason.

So, nothing illegal ever happens in your mind?

Again, the disconnection from reality in your view is glaring.

2. Everyone is being paid the same with experience being the primary difference. Same condition as #1... Doing anything different = getting sued.

Same painfully obvious oversight as #1 - again, you actually believe black people as a race deserve to make less money than white people. That speaks for itself.

Also, you understand that taking someone or some company to court costs money, right? Especially something like a racial discrimination lawsuit.

3. They are more likely to get pulled over and searched, but also more likely to be doing something that will get them pulled over or searched. That's not selective enforcement.

How did you arrive at that conclusion?

Again, you're literally endorsing the belief that black people deserve to be pulled over more often than other races. That is stunning, but at least tells me where your head is at.

4. Drug incarcerations are the same penalties for both, so nonsense.

You don't understand the issue. Black people are disproportionately incarcerated for drug use despite white people using drugs at equal or higher rates than black people.

5. They're less likely to get killed by the police than white people. Your statement is completely false. All crime reporting data shows this. White people are far and away more likely to be fatally wounded by the police.

You are, yet again, demonstrably incorrect.

Risk of being killed by police use of force in the United States by age, race–ethnicity, and sex

6. More likely to do the crime that results in the death penalty. But, given that a white person did the same crime they'd get the same sentence. Though very few states even have this as a sentence anymore.

The only crime we give people the death penalty for in this country is murder. So we're talking about homicide across the board. Again, your view is painfully incorrect.

You seem to have this idea in your head that whatever is written down on paper in law is exactly what happens in reality on the ground. Do you understand what bias in law enforcement even is, as a concept?

So, the only truth in most of this is what you want to believe.

No. The truth is that if you have convinced yourself ahead of time that the disproportionately terrible treatment black people get from the criminal justice system is entirely their own fault, you'll dismiss any data put in front of you.

If you believe companies want to hand out free money to people in lawsuits I'll have a laugh at your expense. If you think cops should pull people over less even when they find someone doing something improperly based on their color... that's real racism... If you think we should modify sentences based on someone's race it's not only racist but putting them down and belittling them directly, as we begin to treat them as irresponsible children rather than grown folks.

Keep knocking down those straw men! Look at you go!

 

[Curious George]

Don't remind them of what actually happened with the Obama regime.

It puts a real rain on lefty's pompous and arrogant parade.

They like to think that they're the bee's knees and superheros of social humanity.

Are you talking about this?

There were definitely issues with the Obama presidency, but i never seem to see eye to eye with people when it comes time to discuss them.

People may forget about the actual issues, but people also forget about the obstruction, crazy theories, and hyperbole that was ridiculously touted when Obama was president.

I would like for someone who complains about Obama to focus on issues that are more consequential than "he made us get healthcare, so our fellow citizens could also have healthcare."

If you want to bash Obama why not be like, "who was it that renewed much of the patriot act;" "who ordered a drone strike that killed a u.s. Citizen;" "who was literally spying on massive amounts of American citizens as exposed by Snowden;" "how well did gun walking turn out..."

Instead people ramble about his birth certificate, or whether he was a Muslim, or how he some forced people to buy insurance or pay a little tax penalty.

 

[Revoltingest]

Your motivated reasoning is a little exhausting.

So you know how I feel when dealing with posters who hate
Trump, & don't consider the heinous acts of the others.
Reagan killed hundreds of thousands.
"But Trump makes us a laughing stock!"
GW Bush started 2 devastating wars.
"But Trump is a compulsive liar!"
And so on.

 

[Revoltingest]

I am doing that also - the deficit jumped badly after the rich got their goodies.

That could be due to huge spending increases that he &
Congress made.
Ya know, Trump is often mistakenly seen as a conservative.
But he has a tax'n spend streak.

Most folk on RF wouldn't have noticed it, but his limitation
of real estate tax (SALT) deductions has been a thorn in the
sides of many many wealthier folk.
How many her owe over $10K/year in home property taxes?
He originally wanted to eliminate this subsidy entirely. But
political compromises, ya know.
You live in CA....if you've been in your current home for a
while, your tax increases have been strictly limited, so the
home property tax burden disproportionately on new buyers.
How much do you pay? I think this year mine will top $10K.

 

[Left Coast]

So you know how I feel when dealing with posters who hate
Trump, & don't consider the heinous acts of the others.
Reagan killed hundreds of thousands.
"But Trump makes us a laughing stock!"
GW Bush started 2 devastating wars.
"But Trump is a compulsive liar!"
And so on.

I understand. I don't think Trump is "the worst," I think that's a bit of hyperbole. I mean, we've had presidents who've endorsed and perpetuated slavery, have we not?

And you're right about Reagan and Bush II, of course.

Completely ignoring climate change is probably up there though, in terms of long term consequences.

 

[Revoltingest]

I understand. I don't think Trump is "the worst," I think that's a bit of hyperbole. I mean, we've had presidents who've endorsed and perpetuated slavery, have we not?

And you're right about Reagan and Bush II, of course.

Completely ignoring climate change is probably up there though, in terms of long term consequences.

Detente!
But climate change can hardly be attributed to Trump.
He is just one player with a 4 (likely) year term in the
entire world's ignoring the problem. Even politicians
who ostensibly care (eg, Obama) personally step with
a huge carbon footprint.
Things will have to get much worse before concern
becomes really serious.

 

[Mindmaster]

Keep knocking down those straw men! Look at you go!

You're entitled to your opinion even if I feel it's completely wrong. But, my opinion is based on federal crime reporting data that track these metrics and I'm not taking information from political spin sites and activist organizations. (due to their inherent bias)

Black people are more likely to commit crimes statistically. That's not an anti-racial statement, either, as I feel it's something they can correct. But, it's ridiculous to blame law enforcement for doing their job in that case or style it as some systematized racism. If you are involved in statistically more crime you will have statistically more convictions and statistically more time served. You also will be profiled more often, and so on... For good reasons... However, none of these things are in the power for anyone but themselves to fix. If they were involved culturally in less dubious behavior these things wouldn't be a problem for them. So, I think it can be fixed, I just don't think it's something anyone else can fix for them.

 

[sun rise]

That could be due to huge spending increases that he &
Congress made.
Ya know, Trump is often mistakenly seen as a conservative.
But he has a tax'n spend streak.

It's Republican borrow and spend. Democrats are tax and spend I prefer tax and spend to digging the debt hole deeper faster.

You live in CA....if you've been in your current home for a
while, your tax increases have been strictly limited, so the
home property tax burden disproportionately on new buyers.
How much do you pay? I think this year mine will top $10K.

You mean the proposition that mainly benefits big business who stays in property for decades on end while regular people move. You'll not be surprised to learn that Proposition 13 has motivated us to continue to live on the same house so we're one of the fortunate ones who had a choice to get the benefits major corporate property holders enjoy.

 

[Revoltingest]

It's Republican borrow and spend. Democrats are tax and spend I prefer tax and spend to digging the debt hole deeper faster.



You mean the proposition that mainly benefits big business who stays in property for decades on end while regular people move. You'll not be surprised to learn that Proposition 13 has motivated us to continue to live on the same house so we're one of the fortunate ones who had a choice to get the benefits major corporate property holders enjoy.

You guys voted yourself that situation.
To impose the burden upon newer buyers
seemed really unfair & dumb to me.

 

[Left Coast]

You're entitled to your opinion even if I feel it's completely wrong. But, my opinion is based on federal crime reporting data that track these metrics and I'm not taking information from political spin sites and activist organizations. (due to their inherent bias)

I didn't post any data from political spin sites or activist orgs. It's telling that you have nothing to say re: the actual data I did present.

Black people are more likely to commit crimes statistically. That's not an anti-racial statement, either, as I feel it's something they can correct. But, it's ridiculous to blame law enforcement for doing their job in that case or style it as some systematized racism. If you are involved in statistically more crime you will have statistically more convictions and statistically more time served. You also will be profiled more often, and so on... For good reasons... However, none of these things are in the power for anyone but themselves to fix. If they were involved culturally in less dubious behavior these things wouldn't be a problem for them. So, I think it can be fixed, I just don't think it's something anyone else can fix for them.

When you're interested in replying to the arguments and question I actually said, let me know.

It's clear that you think the disproportionately terrible treatment black people get from the criminal justice system is their fault. You believe black people, as a race, deserve to make less money than white people, get killed by police more often, get incarcerated more often for something they do no more often than white people, and so on. That attitude speaks volumes.

 

[Mindmaster]

I
It's clear that you think the disproportionately terrible treatment black people get from the criminal justice system is their fault. You believe black people, as a race, deserve to make less money than white people, get killed by police more often, get incarcerated more often for something they do no more often than white people, and so on. That attitude speaks volumes.

No, that's not what I said, but keep fighting with your invisible adversary.

I said they have a culture that leads to poor choices, and they can fix those problems. But, I can't... I'm not the agent of the change... How is being sympathetic to their cries of systematic racism going to help? It's not, because it's NOT there. No amount of "reform" is going to eliminate the root cause. The root cause is they're dealing with situations with violence and have a tolerance for breaking rules. They might believe they're "the man"'s rules or something, but they're the same rules everyone else plays by. If people are being treated fairly under the law no one gets a pass.

What will help is if they, as a whole, begin to reject these proclivities and do something about it. No one kills more black folks than black folks themselves... No one. They can stop that tomorrow if they want. What am I supposed to do about it? That's a choice they make every day and they can take the other path.

You think I'm against equality, and I am. Equality means you treat everyone fairly even if they're not worth it -- it's a myth. No one does this, they treat people based on the merit and value that someone adds to their life. Color doesn't even play into it in modern-day America, and I assure you if you're the best at something no one gives a single crap about it. So, why should I sympathize with what is an outright lie? What you effectively have here is the skewed viewpoint of individuals who's greatest achievement in life is a career at Walmart being absolutely mistaken on what is keeping them there. All that's keeping them there is their lack of useful skills or other contributing factors to society.

 

[Left Coast]

No, that's not what I said, but keep fighting with your invisible adversary.

That is what you said. I'm just not sugar coating it.

I said they have a culture that leads to poor choices, and they can fix those problems. But, I can't... I'm not the agent of the change... How is being sympathetic to their cries of systematic racism going to help? It's not, because it's NOT there.

The multitude of empirical evidence I cited contradicts your belief.

No amount of "reform" is going to eliminate the root cause. The root cause is they're dealing with situations with violence and have a tolerance for breaking rules. They might believe they're "the man"'s rules or something, but they're the same rules everyone else plays by. If people are being treated fairly under the law no one gets a pass.

But they aren't being treated fairly under the law. That's the entire point. It's amazing that you seem unable to grasp this.

What will help is if they, as a whole, begin to reject these proclivities and do something about it. No one kills more black folks than black folks themselves... No one. They can stop that tomorrow if they want. What am I supposed to do about it? That's a choice they make every day and they can take the other path.

No one kills more white folks than white folks themselves, either. The reason, in both cases, is because people of the same race tend to live near each other. Which again, ties back into how segregated our society is.

You think I'm against equality, and I am. Equality means you treat everyone fairly even if they're not worth it -- it's a myth. No one does this, they treat people based on the merit and value that someone adds to their life. Color doesn't even play into it in modern-day America, and I assure you if you're the best at something no one gives a single crap about it.

Again, the empirical evidence consistently contradicts your belief.

So, why should I sympathize with what is an outright lie? What you effectively have here is the skewed viewpoint of individuals who's greatest achievement in life is a career at Walmart being absolutely mistaken on what is keeping them there. All that's keeping them there is their lack of useful skills or other contributing factors to society.

Your inability to see beyond the individual to how systemic issues create the conditions in which individuals live and interact is sort of amazing. And your stereotyping of black people is even more amazing.

 

[sun rise]

You guys voted yourself that situation.
To impose the burden upon newer buyers
seemed really unfair & dumb to me.

So we should act not in our selfish personal interest but for the good of society. I can agree.

 

[Revoltingest]

So we should act not in our selfish personal interest but for the good of society. I can agree.

Woohoo!
Detente!