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Trump snubs formal 9/11 ceremonies

Kooky

Kooky

Freedom from Sanity
esmith said:
Then Biden did not follow the agreement then did he. In February 2020, the deal was that the United States was to get out of Afghanistan in 14 months, May 2021, and, in exchange, the Taliban agreed not to let Afghanistan become a haven for terrorists and to stop attacking U.S. service members.
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And the Taliban held to that deal, didn't they? As the Afghan government collapsed, they marched into most cities completely unopposed, and when they did attack, they targeted government troops, not US service members.
 
P

Ponder This

Well-Known Member
Kooky said:
Because he didn't get re-elected POTUS.

Because he got elected POTUS.
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Of course we can't know that Trump would've succeeded in withdrawing from Afghanistan in a second term, but...
more specifically, why didn't Trump withdraw from Afghanistan during his term in office (before losing the election to a second term) as Trump had four years to do it (as opposed to Biden doing it in eight months).

Kooky said:
And the Taliban held to that deal, didn't they? As the Afghan government collapsed, they marched into most cities completely unopposed, and when they did attack, they targeted government troops, not US service members.
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Part of the deal was successful peace negotiations with the Afghanistan government - which failed instead. So the answer is: no, they did not keep to the deal and Biden should not have withdrawn.
 
Subduction Zone

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Ponder This said:
Of course we can't know that Trump would've succeeded in withdrawing from Afghanistan in a second term, but...
more specifically, why didn't Trump withdraw from Afghanistan during his term in office (before losing the election to a second term) as Trump had four years to do it (as opposed to Biden doing it in eight months).



Part of the deal was successful peace negotiations with the Afghanistan government - which failed instead. So the answer is: no, they did not keep to the deal and Biden should not have withdrawn.
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What good would it have done to maintain a presence in Afghanistan?
 
Kooky

Kooky

Freedom from Sanity
Ponder This said:
Of course we can't know that Trump would've succeeded in withdrawing from Afghanistan in a second term, but...
more specifically, why didn't Trump withdraw from Afghanistan during his term in office (before losing the election to a second term) as Trump had four years to do it (as opposed to Biden doing it in eight months).
Click to expand...
How would either of us know that? We can only speculate based on existing knowledge of existing facts, and fact is that Trump had already put a withdrawal in motion and had even publically promised to withdraw beforehand.

Or would you expect President Donald Trump to break his promises?
 
P

Ponder This

Well-Known Member
Kooky said:
How would either of us know that? We can only speculate based on existing knowledge of existing facts, and fact is that Trump had already put a withdrawal in motion and had even publically promised to withdraw beforehand.

Or would you expect President Donald Trump to break his promises?
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If you can't derive an opinion from looking at facts, then I guess we are done. What is there to debate? The facts? I hope we don't disagree on any of those!

As far as I can tell, you put great value on a promise Trump made that he wasn't able to keep, but don't put any value on a promise the Taliban made and deliberately broke.

You seem also not to place much weight on the facts of 85 million dollars of military equipment given to the Taliban or the 13 U.S. service members who died trying to save people that Biden straight up left behind.

And when asked to make the most pertinent relevant comparison between Biden and Trump (Biden withdrew, Trump did not), you throw up your hands because who can say? Then point your finger at the orange man in accusatory fashion.

C'est la vie.

Subduction Zone said:
What good would it have done to maintain a presence in Afghanistan?
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I think that's evident from the difference between before Biden withdrew and after he withdrew. For starters, the 85 million dollars of military equipment and the geopolitical power structures of the region with China and Russia both backing the Taliban. The loss of face of the U.S. with it's allies. The question of the condition of the people of Afghanistan among other things. And, of course, the relative safety of the U.S. from terrorist attacks.

On the other hand, the U.S. really did not want to be there.
 
Subduction Zone

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Ponder This said:
If you can't derive an opinion from looking at facts, then I guess we are done. What is there to debate? The facts? I hope we don't disagree on any of those!

As far as I can tell, you put great value on a promise Trump made that he wasn't able to keep, but don't put any value on a promise the Taliban made and deliberately broke.

You seem also not to place much weight on the facts of 85 million dollars of military equipment given to the Taliban or the 13 U.S. service members who died trying to save people that Biden straight up left behind.

And when asked to make the most pertinent relevant comparison between Biden and Trump (Biden withdrew, Trump did not), you throw up your hands because who can say? Then point your finger at the orange man in accusatory fashion.

C'est la vie.



I think that's evident from the difference between before Biden withdrew and after he withdrew. For starters, the 85 million dollars of military equipment and the geopolitical power structures of the region with China and Russia both backing the Taliban. The loss of face of the U.S. with it's allies. The question of the condition of the people of Afghanistan among other things. And, of course, the relative safety of the U.S. from terroristablet attacks.

On the other hand, the U.S. really did not want to be there.
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Pretty weak sauce. Trump set it in motion. One of the few right things that he did. Biden just went along with the inevitable.
 
Kooky

Kooky

Freedom from Sanity
Ponder This said:
If you can't derive an opinion from looking at facts, then I guess we are done. What is there to debate? The facts? I hope we don't disagree on any of those!

As far as I can tell, you put great value on a promise Trump made that he wasn't able to keep, but don't put any value on a promise the Taliban made and deliberately broke.
Click to expand...
The Taliban are not the agents in this issue. They cannot control when or if the US military withdraws from Afghanistan. Only US officials can.

You seem also not to place much weight on the facts of 85 million dollars of military equipment given to the Taliban or the 13 U.S. service members who died trying to save people that Biden straight up left behind.
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No, because that happened during the withdrawal, and so couldn't have influenced what came before.

You seem to argue with causality backwards here: Because the withdrawal looked like such a mess on mainstream television, that means it must have been Biden's fault, because if Trump had implemented it, everything would have gone without a hitch.

Am I correct in that assessment?


And when asked to make the most pertinent relevant comparison between Biden and Trump (Biden withdrew, Trump did not), you throw up your hands because who can say? Then point your finger at the orange man in accusatory fashion.
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I've already outlined what I consider the primary reason why Trump did not withdraw from Afghanistan. If you disagree then feel free to make an argument why that reason is irrelevant.

I think that's evident from the difference between before Biden withdrew and after he withdrew. For starters, the 85 million dollars of military equipment and the geopolitical power structures of the region with China and Russia both backing the Taliban. The loss of face of the U.S. with it's allies. The question of the condition of the people of Afghanistan among other things. And, of course, the relative safety of the U.S. from terrorist attacks.
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And despite the numerous terrorist attacks, ethnic cleansings, and countless civilian deaths that factually occurred in Afghanistan while the US was still maintaining a military presence, you believe nothing bad would have happened to the people of Afghanistan if they had stayed. Can you make an even halfway believable argument how that would occur, barring divine intervention?
 
Guitar's Cry

Guitar's Cry

Disciple of Pan
Ponder This said:
Of course we can't know that Trump would've succeeded in withdrawing from Afghanistan in a second term, but...
more specifically, why didn't Trump withdraw from Afghanistan during his term in office (before losing the election to a second term) as Trump had four years to do it (as opposed to Biden doing it in eight months).



Part of the deal was successful peace negotiations with the Afghanistan government - which failed instead. So the answer is: no, they did not keep to the deal and Biden should not have withdrawn.
Click to expand...
Trump gave an indication of how a Trump withdrawal of forces can go, and it suggests it would be just as messy: Trump defends decision to abandon Kurdish allies in Syria
The lesson is we should not be involving the military in these types of situations in the first place. Especially for 20 years. Biden and military intelligence may have screwed up in the details of the withdrawal, but every President for 20 years has blame in this.
Including Trump.
 
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Subduction Zone

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
esmith said:
Do you have a copy or a link to President Trump's withdrawl plan. I haven't seen one or even heard of one.
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The withdrawal was over 2/3 done by the time Biden took office. That in effect makes it Trump's plan. I can show you Trump trying to take complete credit up to a week before the end when it fell apart. Would that be good enough for you?
 
Revoltingest

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Subduction Zone said:
The withdrawal was over 2/3 done by the time Biden took office. That in effect makes it Trump's plan. I can show you Trump trying to take complete credit up to a week before the end when it fell apart. Would that be good enough for you?
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Had Trump been re-elected the Taliban would've still
taken over as soon as we left. Would it have been
any less chaotic? I don't think so, given that Trump
appears to be such a poor manager.
Still, Trump gets credit for sending the war in the
direction of ending, unlike Obama, who expanded it.
 
esmith

esmith

Veteran Member
Subduction Zone said:
The withdrawal was over 2/3 done by the time Biden took office. That in effect makes it Trump's plan. I can show you Trump trying to take complete credit up to a week before the end when it fell apart. Would that be good enough for you?
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Still have shown any proof. Try again
 
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