esmith
Veteran Member
We didn't get anything out of President Trump's agreement with the Taliban because he was not reelected.
However, you could say he got Biden off the dime on the matter.
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Trump snubs formal 9/11 ceremonies
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However, you could say he got Biden off the dime on the matter.
Ponder This
Well-Known Member
Still looking for the part where Trump gives loyal allies to terrorists... unless you are trying to imply that Turkey is a terrorist nation and not a NATO ally? Any plots from Turkey to bomb the U.S. that I don't know about? Is Biden considering sponsoring the Taliban for membership in NATO? Also looking for the 85 million dollars worth of military equipment that got left in the hands of sworn enemies of the U.S.
It seems the comparison further demonstrates the stark contrast between Biden and Trump. Biden's Withdrawal from Afghanistan was and is a debacle of epic proportion that empowered the Taliban, Al-Qaida, and ISIS in Afghanistan. Trump's withdrawal from Syria came with the defeat of ISIS in Syria.
Guitar's Cry
Disciple of Pan
The Kurds were also allies that fought alongside our troops. I'd be willing to bet Turkey-US relations were not a comfort for them as they were slaughtered.
$4.1 million in U.S. military gear unaccounted for in Syrian war, some due to Trump's "unexpected withdrawal"
The Weapons America Is Leaving Behind in Syria
Military gear is ALWAYS left behind after a military conflict. Best way to avoid this is to not get involved militarily.
Our withdrawal from Syria also increased Russia's influence as the Kurds had to ally allie with Assad.
Regardless, the comparison shows that:
1. Withdrawals are messy. Trump withdrawing from Afghanistan wouldn't have looked very different.
2. We shouldn't be involving our military in ways that lead to these problems.
ecco
Veteran Member
Damn. If I had known he would have gotten something/anything from the Taliban, I would have voted for him. Oh, well.
Kooky
Freedom from Sanity
Turkey traded with ISIS for a long time, and used the Syrian civil war as an excuse to plow over the Kurdish militias that used to be US allies, at the exact point when the US withdrew its military support from the Kurds.
I know it's fancy in the US to forget everything that happened under previous presidential administrations the minute the new guy takes office, and I know most Americans have no clue what's going on in the Middle East anyway, but if you're going to bring up Erdongan's authoritarian Turkish state then you might at least want to familiarize yourself with what happened in the past 3-4 years.
Ponder This
Well-Known Member
There is a big difference between a withdrawal from a region where ISIS was defeated compared to a withdrawal from a region that empowered the Taliban. The condition of ISIS in Syria versus the condition of the Taliban in Afghanistan are in sharp contrast. That goes for weapons as well. That goes for relations with Turkey versus relations with the no longer existent Afghanistan government. The differences show that the withdrawal from Syria was better accomplished.
Withdrawals are messy is something we can agree on, but these two withdrawals are not similar in key regards. In particular, the degree of mess! This is because Trump withdrew from Syria after meeting favorable conditions for withdrawal, whereas Biden did a withdrawal in Afghanistan despite there being unfavorable conditions for withdrawal.
Do you hold the position that the U.S. military should not be involved regardless of consequences? I suspect that others who support Biden's Withdrawal have a similar point-of-view.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
Go tell the Kurds that.
And just a reminder that Trump's deadline for leaving Afghanistan was May 1st, months before Biden's deadline.
esmith
Veteran Member
So, what.
It makes no difference when the withdrawl takes place, what makes a difference is in the excution of the withdrawal.
As we all should be able to figure out Biden's withdrawal was basically a total disater.
Ponder This
Well-Known Member
You should tell the Kurds that, and the Turks, and Assad, and ISIS - oops, looks like you'll have to travel to Afghanistan for that!
As a reminder to you: the U.S. was not bound to the May 1st deadline which comes from the Doha deal because the Taliban broke off negotiations with the Afghan government and attacked it! Biden made up his own deadline for withdrawal which he "negotiated" with the Taliban. Trump publicly pleaded in the media that Biden should please not to do a September 11 withdrawal from Afghanistan.
With the Afghanistan Withdrawal fresh on everyone minds on 9/11, Trump declined to attend. Biden didn't listen to U.S. intelligence; he didn't listen to Ghani directly; he certainly didn't listen to Trump in the media.
Kooky
Freedom from Sanity
Not really, Kurdistan is in Turkey, Iraq and Syria. Please for the love of god look at a map.
Kooky
Freedom from Sanity
What would Trump have done differently, in concrete terms?
esmith
Veteran Member
How the f* should I know, I'm not within his circle of advisors.
Kooky
Freedom from Sanity
But you assume that he would, without any further information. Why?
esmith
Veteran Member
Because no one can be as wrong as sleepy Joe
Kooky
Freedom from Sanity
What if I told you that the withdrawal would have been a disaster, regardless of whether your figurehead arms dealer belonged to your favorite political football team or not?
esmith
Veteran Member
I would say try peddling your trolling somewhere else.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
You got that wrong as the Afghan leaders were not even invited to discuss an agreement with the Trump administration, which had the effect of undermining them. It was Biden after the election that contacted the Taliban that extended the withdrawal until August 31st in order to buy some time.
And "nice" excuse for Trump not attending the 9-11 ceremonies but that doesn't even stand to basic logic. Trump was very distraught and all over the place after he lost the election as even some of his own aides have said.
Doesn't it bother you at all what happened on January 6th? Doesn't it bother you at all that he tried to get the election results in Georgia changed when he told the S-o-S there to "find votes"? Doesn't it bother you at all that he has repeatedly appealed to white supremacist and militia elements? Doesn't it bother you at all when he even claimed months before the election that the only way he could loose is if there was massive voter fraud? Doesn't it bother you at all that he and some other Pubs have pressured even some fellow Pubs in several states to declare the election a "fraud" even though there was no indication of that? And finally, doesn't it bother you at all that we have not only a president but also many of his henchmen in Congress trying to undermine our Constitution and our democratic process?
Maybe you should listen to the likes of George Will and Steven Schmidt as to why they consider Trump and the party they left that they firmly believe is undermining our democracy. Here:
George Will - Wikipedia
Steve Schmidt - Wikipedia
Kooky
Freedom from Sanity
Of course you would. We can't have a reality where political events are decided by any factor other than party affiliation, can we?
The US occupation of Afghanistan was never going to end any other way. Look at Vietnam, and what happened after the US withdrew.
esmith
Veteran Member
Vietnam was not full of religious zealots living in the 7th centruy.
Ponder This
Well-Known Member
Wow... this really moves away from the topic of Trump not attending the 9/11 with Biden, which was all about the Afghanistan Withdrawal Debacle. I suppose, however, that I will briefly indulge this lunacy.
Yes, it does bother me that there is so much Trump hate. It's difficult not to see each thing that comes along as another case of people blindly attacking Trump.
Have you checked in on the status of cases concerning Jan 6? There are no charges of sedition or insurrection. One possibility is that there is some sort of deep state conspiracy to not charge all these people with an "obvious" crime. The other possibility is that none of the crimes committed actually rise to the level of sedition or insurrection and that's why they haven't been charged thus. The charge of incitement against Trump has also lost its steam, because it turns out that it's almost impossible to use a speech explicitly calling for peaceful protest to convict someone of incitement. The Jan 6 committee is obviously partisan. And is there anyone less credible to be on that committee than Adam Shiff? We'll see what they come up with!
The Georgia call by Trump is obviously Trump advocating for an examination of the vote because Trump believes there was fraud. It's entirely appropriate to call Georgia if you think there is a legitimate problem with the election.
The white supremacist accusations against Trump are one of the biggest hoaxes about him. If you believe that Trump supports the KKK and neo-Nazis and gives secret dog whistles to hate groups, then you are so deep down the crazy rabbit hole of imagined conspiracies that you are on the level of people who create the nonsense that President so-and-so is the anti-Christ.
That Trump saw there were problems with mail-in voting is no surprise. It's more surprising that more wasn't done to make sure mail-in voting was secure. The party politics of voting is amazing to watch unfold. -_-
Pubs pressuring Pubs to declare the election a fraud is concerning. The election is over and Biden was declared winner. The election cannot be declared fraudulent as Biden was elected legitimately. Only voter fraud can be declared and even that should come only as a result of considered evidence. The correct action by Dems and Pubs alike is to take proper steps to insure free and fair voter integrity. The numbers of errors should be less than the margin of victory. That it is otherwise is disturbing.As for "his henchmen in Congress trying to undermine our Constitution and our democratic process", I think you need to specify who his henchmen are and what they are trying. Otherwise, I'm left wondering what other hoaxes and conspiracy theories you believe in. Aliens on Mars? Russia collusion? Border Patrol agents armed with whips? The Holocaust didn't happen? The Moon Landing was faked? 9/11 was an inside job? The Earth is actually flat? Covid vaccine microchips implanted by none other than Bill Gates (aka the other anti-Christ)? I've noticed that you can't have too many anti-Christs. Maybe if people accuse enough people of being the anti-Christ they will eventually be right! If at first you don't succeed, try, try again!
When people come along and want to blame the Afghanistan Withdrawal Debacle on Trump instead of Biden, I think they must be blinded by Trump-hate and every fact that comes to light is somehow filtered - polarized, if you will - to slander Trump, even when it is patently ridiculous. I wouldn't be surprised if people imagined some way to blame Trump for the Over the Horizon airstrike that killed 7 children and 3 aid workers that was initially billed as a verified kill on ISIS planners.
So, I mean, if you can come up with some reasoning other than: it must be Trump because Trump is evil, then I'll consider it.
Turn about is fair-play. So I'd like to ask you:
Does it bother you that Biden does not secure the Southern border?
Does it bother you that Biden does not secure the Southern border during a pandemic?
Does the very large number of people crossing the Southern border bother you?
Does it bother you that almost none of the people crossing the Southern border have a legitimate asylum claim?
Does it bother you that Fentanyl from China crosses that border and kills tens of thousands of Americans?
Do the Cartels in Mexico bother you?
Does it bother you that some of the Hunter Biden laptop emails have been confirmed as genuine (not a Russian disinformation campaign)?
POLITICO Playbook: Double trouble for Biden
Does it bother you that when the Afghanistan Withdrawal began, Biden isolated in Camp David, Harris traveled to Vietnam, the Press Secretary went on vacation, and the Secretary of State (in charge of foreign affairs) went on vacation? Keep in mind that you've literally planned (we hope) for the time and date of your withdrawal.
Does it bother you that Biden made a secret deal with Australia and so offended France that for the first time ever in history, France recalled it's diplomats from the U.S. because the U.S. was considered untrustworthy?
Does it bother you that Biden wants to pass trillions of dollars in spending while at the very same time Dems are pushing to raise the debt limit for the U.S.? Does it bother you that Biden had the audacity to publicly declare that it is "all paid for"?
Does it bother you that Biden so often directly lies to the public and then refuses to take questions?
Does it bother you that foreign leaders visit the White House and take questions but Biden declines?
Do Biden's authoritarian policies bother you?